The material presented
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information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
So A went to his 3 hour counseling session as well as his mandatory AA meeting this past week. Things have actually calmed down here. I know he'll never admit it but I think he actually got something out of his meeting.
Anyway, I have a question regarding those meetings. I understand the concept about finding a "higher power", which you would assume could cover all religions. My feeling is that the "higher power" is not necissarily the Christian God. Well my AH is atheist. His biggest turnoff/complaint about AA is the fact that EVERY meeting he's been to they close with the Lord's Prayer. Not only that, but they actually closed his addiction counseling session the same way. I was pretty shocked. The counseling is not through a church nor do the AA meetings he has attended take place in one. Is that normal for the meetings? Or is it just because we're in the South? My A is VERY strong with his beliefs (or non-beliefs) but he said out of respect he does join hands, he just doesn't say anything. Is AA truly only for Christians?
Can someone explain? The reading and such *I* have done, explains your higher can be anything.... a God, a deity or the tree in your back yard.
Thanks :)
__________________
~Kat
Life is a shipwreck but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats. ~Voltaire
There is a section in the big blue book of AA called To the Atheist (?) I think .. if not that exact title it's a chapter. It may help if he reads that. Most people coming in to AA even Alanon have lost complete touch with a higher power. It's not about a Christian God it is truly just something greater than ourselves. It's exactly how you shared it can be anything as long as it's a power outside of ourselves.
Hugs P :)
__________________
Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
is this just an excuse for him to not like going? unconsciously even, he may be looking for reasons to quit? is he throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
In alanon we say "take what works and leave the rest" -- I assume he can do that at AA. even if he doesn't believe in a christian god, he CAn appreciate what others' religion means to them...and if they push religion on him -- he can respectfully draw some boundaries around that...
I was just wondering. I myself would be put off by going to a non-religious meeting and being asked to say a Christian prayer. It just doesn't seem like it would be very welcoming to others outside the religion.
Of course, like I said, out of respect, he holds hands when requested, just doesn't say the prayer.
__________________
~Kat
Life is a shipwreck but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats. ~Voltaire
It's not unusual but the meetings more commonly close with the serenity prayer. Nobody cares whether you say the prayer or not so it's a lame excuse to not go to meetings. He could chant a devil prayer while everyone else was saying the Lord's prayer and nobody would really care probably. So yes....I see the whole "I can't go to AA cuz of the Christianity thing" as a copout.
Heck, I am a gay man who generally is very wary of the judgment of fundamentalist christians and if I can work an AA program...... He might do better to focus on the meaning of the prayer rather than who it is said to. All the things in the Lord's Prayer are good things and good ways to live right? Why get hung up on the first line....?
When I got into Al-Anon they said in the opening statement...We are not a religious program...if you work the steps religiously...(something to that affect) and after a while I got it. The steps are my daily life and I am a cultural Hawaiian person. I was born into and raised in a christian lifestyle and non of it restrained the alcoholism in both sides of our family. The question about God, Christianity and such is about fear and resistance to surrender. It is about self determination without outside influence and yet it is very well know and accepted on the multitude of levels...If you want to get sober hang out with sober people and do what they do. The ego/mind of the alcoholic is soooo oppositional definant. That was me. I did everything I knew to keep recovering Al-Anon and AA away from me until finally I couldn't close the crack in the wall of defense that my Higher Power..."Akua"...made. Your atheist alcoholic husband is dealing with the greatest of all emotions conditions of the disease of alcoholism...fear. Try tripping over to the AA side of the MIP board and asking them to tell you about fear and the disease.
Keep up this thread because it is sooooo important to both the A and the spouse/family/friends of the A. If we will not find a power greater than ourself we rely on a sick person for making ourself well.
I'm gonna continue coming back here to read cause I need to understand more...my recovery depends on it. Please help. ((((hugs))))
Great points by others...especially Jerry. I also wanted to add that active alcoholics oftin claim atheism as part of their condition rather than an actual belief system. That is part of why recovery is so slim. It's hard to retrain a closed mind to be open. The world is intolerable and bleak without spirituality and that feuls alcholism.....at least it did for me. For me, my lack of spirituality was a symptom of my illness in retrospect. It's truly sad that for many, it's what hinders their recovery. At the point I started AA, I was ready to take a flying leap into it and risk coming out a bible thumping jesus lover for all I cared. I was so miserable and I figured that would be better than a suffering drunk. Either he will get to the same point or he wont.
I have met a few atheists in AA but they are usually spiritual in terms of nature and/or principles of humanity. The Lord's Prayer is actually a good example of spiritual principles seeing as it talks about not being willful (thy will be done), not being greedy (give us our daily bread), don't be swayed from what is right and true (lead us not into temptation), treat others how you want to be treated (forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us), and the world does not soley belong to me and my time here is fleeting (thine is the kindgom forever and ever).
Hence, how could a person object to that when you really think about it? AA and Alanon are about the principles - not the religion - if it's origins lie in religion, I just break it down into the principles. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Hope that makes some sense or is of use to someone.
God as we understood him - or not . Frankly its a very common excuse for an alcoholic to not commit to sobriety . My husb used that one for a while too . And in my own program I had a hard time comming to terms with the God stuff too but eventually came to the conclusion that I had nothing to loose by accepting that there just might be someone or something a tad smarter than me . Today I have a Higher Power in my life that seems to understand me perfectly and that works for me . I hope you are attending Al-Anon meetings for yourself , as we too need to recover from the affects of someone elses drinking . and for me it is the healthiest way to support the A 's efforts at sobriety . I too stepped out of the circle when the prayer was said perfectly acceptable , no one told me I couldnt do that . just my opinion .
-- Edited by abbyal on Sunday 29th of July 2012 03:41:08 PM
Well, I have to say that the Lord's prayer would bother me too. It's not so much that I'm an atheist (although I am) as that it bothers me when people think that "spirituality" equals one particular branch of it (a branch in which many members claim to have a corner on the one and only truth). Prayers like that look "generic" to many Christians but far from generic and neutral to Jewish people, Hindus, and people from other religions. Many people assume that Christian traditions should speak for everyone and don't "get" why anyone would object -- it comes across to me as a lack of respect for other people's beliefs. And professionals doing it, like addiction counselors, I think is not only unwarranted but potentially harmful. Someone who's struggling with addiction shouldn't have to fight these battles too.
In my experience, there is definitely a way of doing twelve-step programs without needing to believe in a God that is outside one's personal philosophy. But we also have to recognize that not everyone in the program is going to be sensitive to everything, and it's always about "taking what you like and leaving the rest." So now your A has found out that some people in his AA program have certain biases. That doesn't mean the program can't be helpful. That doesn't mean the program can't save his life.
It also doesn't mean that he can't find a way to get the benefits of the program himself, i.e. without you needing to persuade him. If you were drowning and someone from an obnoxious denomination threw you a rope, you wouldn't say, "No, I need someone who understands my position to throw me that rope!" You'd haul yourself in, dry yourself off, and figure out the rest down the line. This may be a time for him to grab hold of the rope. And maybe for him to figure out his own reasons for taking hold of the rope.
Well, I have to say that the Lord's prayer would bother me too. It's not so much that I'm an atheist (although I am) as that it bothers me when people think that "spirituality" equals one particular branch of it (a branch in which many members claim to have a corner on the one and only truth). Prayers like that look "generic" to many Christians but far from generic and neutral to Jewish people, Hindus, and people from other religions. Many people assume that Christian traditions should speak for everyone and don't "get" why anyone would object -- it comes across to me as a lack of respect for other people's beliefs. And professionals doing it, like addiction counselors, I think is not only unwarranted but potentially harmful. Someone who's struggling with addiction shouldn't have to fight these battles too.
In my experience, there is definitely a way of doing twelve-step programs without needing to believe in a God that is outside one's personal philosophy. But we also have to recognize that not everyone in the program is going to be sensitive to everything, and it's always about "taking what you like and leaving the rest." So now your A has found out that some people in his AA program have certain biases. That doesn't mean the program can't be helpful. That doesn't mean the program can't save his life.
It also doesn't mean that he can't find a way to get the benefits of the program himself, i.e. without you needing to persuade him. If you were drowning and someone from an obnoxious denomination threw you a rope, you wouldn't say, "No, I need someone who understands my position to throw me that rope!" You'd haul yourself in, dry yourself off, and figure out the rest down the line. This may be a time for him to grab hold of the rope. And maybe for him to figure out his own reasons for taking hold of the rope.
Keep on taking good care of yourself.
Mattie... this is where *I* have the problem. If I were in his shoes, the LAST thing I would want is someone shoving their chosen beliefs down my throat as well.
Thank you ALL for your insight and responses. That' why I keep coming back.
__________________
~Kat
Life is a shipwreck but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats. ~Voltaire
. And in my own program I had a hard time comming to terms with the God stuff too but eventually came to the conclusion that I had nothing to loose by accepting that there just might be someone or something a tad smarter than me . Today I have a Higher Power in my life that seems to understand me perfectly and that works for me . I hope you are attending Al-Anon meetings for yourself , as we too need to recover from the affects of someone elses drinking . and for me it is the healthiest way to support the A 's efforts at sobriety . I too stepped out of the circle when the prayer was said perfectly acceptable , no one told me I couldnt do that . just my opinion .