The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
This raises red flags for me if only because I went through an entire marriage with a man whom would always threaten to end the relationship if things didn't go his way.
I know for me, when I think about what I want in a relationship, a sense of security is one of them - not one where I feel like I have to walk on eggshells consistently because I just might upset the person and they'll leave me. And I can tell you it was some of the most ridiculous stuff that my exAH would threaten divorce over.
Note that I mentioned my own story was about my exAH. He's my ex now not because he ever followed through on those empty threats. It was me who eventually had enough and when I said I'd had enough, I really meant it and followed through.
-- Edited by canadianguy on Thursday 14th of June 2012 03:32:14 PM
Hi there, I am a 35 year old woman who has fallen in love with a 45 year old man. I am crazy about him. The way we met is amazing.. and he has traits that I have dreamed about in a man. I am not an addict, I can socially drink. However since we have been together, I will NOT drink in front of him. I respect and admire what he is going thru. He however.. doesnt want me to drink at all. If he is working at night.. and my girlfriends want to go out, he gets very upset and jelous.. and by the end of the night he breaks up with me. Or tells me he cant do this. I know they are not supose to date for a year.. I guess that is the biggest issue. He has broken up with me again.. not due to a girls night.. but due to not responding to his feelings the way he wants me too. I have really tried.. I never hang with my friends, to prevent a fight. I rarely ever drink.. so he doesnt freak out. I NEVER drink in front of him. But its still not good enough! I have never felt this way about a man, and I sure as hell.. NEVER change for a man. But in my heart he is so worth it. But I feel like I am loosing myself, by trying so hard to be who/what he needs.
What you are describing is not unusual for an alcohokic relationship. Loving an alcoholic requires support anda new set of tools than what we are familar with.
I urge you to look for the alanon telephone number in your local telephone directory and attend at least 6 face to face meetings.
You are not alone and You will find support and help
Thanks for your post Keeka. There's a belief in AA - and I think it holds true in Al-Anon as well - that the alcoholic suffers from a total inability to form a true partnership with another human being. And as I suggested, even we Al-anons have the same problem. We are all trying to have healthy relationships by using unhealthy ideas. But this is only in early recovery, before the steps are taken.
Its no secret here that I hail from both fellowships - AA and Al-anon - so I know a little about relationships in early recovery. I have had many that were unhealthy and did not work out, and I have had one that was very successful and remains successful to this day. I got into this last relationship when I had 2 years of Al-anon but only 4 sober months in AA so needless to say some people were convinced it wasn't going to work out.
But something was different this time. I had taken my steps. I was learning how to let go of old ideas and to embrace new ones. I knew what my defects were and how they got me into trouble. I knew that love does not mean interference, that caring does not mean controlling, that whenever I was disturbed, no matter what the reason was, it was because there was something wrong about me, my spiritual condition was out of whack and my defects were taking over again. I cannot change other people. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world but what needs to be changed in me and my attitudes. So I work on me and she works on herself. And I also knew one very important thing. All I really have is one day - today. I can't get yesterday back. Its gone forever. I have no idea what the future holds so worrying about it only makes me crazy.
They say one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. Another one is being in a 12-step fellowship and not working the 12 steps.
Not every day is a diamond but with changed ideas and attitudes, the fellowships to rely upon for guidance and the love of my higher power, we do okay.
Go to some face to face meetings, get a sponsor if you don't have one yet, join a group, get active in your group. oh yeah and take the 12 steps. Nice to see ya here.
-- Edited by Wolfie55 on Thursday 14th of June 2012 06:28:19 PM
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Not all my days are priceless, but none of them are worthless, anymore.
The magnetism that occurred when I fell for my ex recovering alcoholic was like nothing else I had felt before. Looking back on it; however, for me it wasn't only love. I was addicted to the addict. I was obsessed. Al anon is really helping me and I am new to all of this as well.
Chaya
I told him I was willing to go to alanon.. meetings, so I could understand things better. I even printed a calendar. He told me, that was for People who have been living with , or co dependent, enablers.. etc.. I am just a girlfriend. I have always been so strong.. and have never been so willing to make sacerfices for a man.. but he just finds something to be pissed off with me all the time. Normally I would have run by now.. I am too old for this mess..but with Him, I want to make it work... Now I am scared he will relapse due to the stress of the break up.. ugh.. this is Hell!!
Al Anon is for ANYONE who has an alcoholic in their lives. I highly recommend it.
Keep in mind we can't control other people. Not seeing friends to avoid an argument with him is a slippery slope, do be careful. His potential to relapse has nothing to do with you. Try some meetings!
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Only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us. -from Pema Chödron's When Things Fall Apart
No one relapses because of someone else's behavior. They are not taking care of themselves. Life is on life's terms after all.
Most alcoholics get into recovery when their life is so bad that they can't stand it anymore. That isn't exactly a great time to make big changes in their lives. Talk about a lot of stress.
Possessiveness is a trait many an alcoholic has. I fully understand changing all my behavior for years to appeal to an alcoholic. I also didn't drink for years because I didn't want to enable the alcoholic. I choose not to drink now not because I don't like it but it tends to affect my judgment some.
I think you are in the right place. Stop sharing with him about al anon. You aren't going to al anon for him but for you. Al anon can help you regardless of his recovery.Why not give it a try. And get the book Getting them Sober by Toby Rice Drew. I can't recommend it highly enough.
I see two separate things going on here. One is adjusting to someone who's in recovery from alcoholism. That may indeed require some compromise because alcoholics can't risk some of the behaviors that are fine for other people. However, alcoholics in early recovery are known for being moody, demanding, and irrational. It does sound as if yours is in early recovery. A man with five or ten years of recovery is much more able to be in a relationship than a man in the first year or two. And keep in mind that what he needs for his recovery right now simply may not be compatible with a healthy relationship.
The other issue is his actions in the relationship even apart from being an alcoholic. Because you still have genuine needs for a healthy relationship, as everyone does -- needs that will be damaging to ignore. But he seems to be breaking up with you if he can't get his way. And I can see that he doesn't want to be around someone drinking, but if you go out with your friends without him, he can't stand it and gets upset and jealous -- that rings my alarm bells as controlling. Remember that alcoholics have a lot of sick behavior, often including controlling, and they need recovery from that too. Drawing boundaries is one thing, but it sounds to me as if he breaks up with you whenever he doesn't like your behavior, and then you say you will change and he gets back together with you, and then he finds something else he doesn't like and he breaks up with you again, and you say you will change and he gets back together with you again...
What I wish someone had said to me, early in my relationship, is, "If things never changed from the way they are now, what decision would you make?" Because I also remember the saying, "When people show you who they are, believe them."
I imagine we have all had that experience of feeling that someone is so, so right and we shouldn't ever let them go. Someone once explained to me that that feeling is more intensity than love. Oh! But the intensity is so intoxicating. It feels so good. But here's the catch! That on-again-off-again quality, where you can't know where he stands, and you always have to try to change yourself to win him over, and you can't just start to rely on him and settle into a good solid relationship -- that is exactly what cultivates that intensity. It is the definition of how to create an addiction. The psychologists call it "intermittant reinforcement." It drives us crazy. We crave "winning" and making him accept and love us for good. It drives us crazy that we never can quite seem to do it. So we try harder and harder and harder. And every time things get bad, suddenly he relents and gives us some of that wonderful love, and it feels even better because we've been waiting and suffering for it. But then it's withdrawn again. And we're back on the merry-go-round.
Don't accept his claims for reality -- anyone is welcome in Al-Anon, and it is for anyone who's affected by someone else's drinking (or addiction). If he's saying you're not qualified because you're "only" a girlfriend, he's in denial about how much alcoholism affects those around it, even when the alcoholic is no longer drinking, or he's sending signals that you're not a close girlfriend, or sadly both. But you don't need his okay to know what reality is. I hope you'll read all you can on these boards, find a good meeting, get the literature, learn lots, and take good care of yourself. Melody Beattie's Codependent No More has also been so helpful to a lot of people.
thank you so much. I am going to print off your reply and read it often. I have read co dependent no more. I told you I am really trying. Everything you said.. was wonderful. I truly appreciate your time.. I have found a meeting on Monday right around the corner from me, and I am going to go: for me. I am so proud of him for putting his sobritey first.. but sucks for me. Thank you sooo much for you wisdom. It connected to me in many ways.
What a great topic. I also do not drink infront of my recovering (separated AH) and I rarely drink anymore at all--don't have in the house, don't think about it much. But there are times when I have been out with girlfriends and also would like a glass of wine to chill out. He has told me this incredibly hard for him and that he cannot believe I would ever drink again etc...?
I have pointed out that I changed my life DRASTICALLY because he cannot drink--we wouldn't have people over for dinner anymore, I avoided all social situations, etc...and I was very social--I love cooking and entertaining...it was changing who I was and really isolating. It was like, he found out he had cancer and i got the chemotherapy sometimes.
I don't know, I hope there are some other ESH posted on this. I should add, now we are separated and still, I feel guilty any time I think about relaxing with a beer or wine even when he is no where in sight so I just don't do it. Especially since all of our friends KNOW about the situation. I feel under-the-microscope. It's like the enjoyment from drinking gone for me...and the ironic part is, he still drinks (relapses) and gets his self-pity, rage, blame thing going on but yep, I cannot seem to allow myself to relax the way I used to, knowing I am not doing anything wrong, because if it got back to him he would be upset.
Wow--hoping for ESH here, too--thanks for bringing this up!!
Only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us. -from Pema Chödron's When Things Fall Apart
As I have stated in other threads, Alcoholics and those even in early recovery do not have relationships, they take hostages That is not healthy love to be so demanding of a person and to restrict their freedom so much. I cannot tell you what to do, but only after several years of recovery in AA, do I now see I am pretty much powerless over people, places, and things as well as alcohol. For the first couple of years, it took everything for me just to continue accepting I couldn't drink. I still tried to control other people and situations and acted pretty jerky. Sounds like what you are describing - A very possessive and fear based person in early recovery.
Alanon is not just for people who have been living with an active drunk for a long long time....It's for people who are affected by alcoholic behaviors that come along with dealing with an alcoholic (amongst other things). To a degree is it is for enablers and by changing to suit him, you ARE enabling his alcoholic behaviors and that IS something worth discussing and working on in alanon.
Well, my experience is two fold regarding relationships. My ex did not drink while we were married 15 years, but was raised in an alcoholic home so he had all the traits and sick thinking. When I finally left him 5 years ago, he began drinking immediately and now has a drinking problem. Functional drunk. I'm also in love with someone in recovery - however I am not dealing with anything I see you going through.
I spent the better part of the past 5 years trying to figure out why I accepted a man who did not treat me well, who was sick and controlling. I've dated the past 2 years but have walked away early on for red flags. Actually, when I found out my RBF had a relapse shortly after we met, I walked away for a bit. I stepped back to see how he handled himself and this is what I saw:
1. He had been in AA and working the steps for 2 1/2 years prior to his relapse and was still committed 2. He owned the relapse as his own issue and as a signal he needed to dig down deeper into his internal turmoil (he found ironically he deals with enabling and codependent behaviors, we call it a "double winner" here). 3. He has always taken the perspective of "you do not need to change for me, I'm the alcoholic not you". 4. He is appreciative that I do not drink in front of him but does not expect it. 5. He puts his recovery first and was clear with me so it was not a surprise and he's told me what that looks like. 4-7 meetings a week, getting together with his sober friends if he needs support, supporting his sober friends, contributing to meetings, etc. 6. He was not in the least threatened when I told him I was joining Al Anon and in fact he welcomed it. 7. Neither of us plays relationship games, even if he does not agree with a boundary I have put up, he respects it and vice versa.
Because I had a lot of practice walking away from guys who did not respect my boundaries, or who showed signs of being controlling, I was able to recognize this time things were a good kind of different. It's a very relaxed, mature relationship. I let him have his friends/life outside of us, he lets me have my friends/life outside of us and we absolutely have a great time together and want to be around each other a lot.
When we talk about something that bothers us about the other person, we come to the discussion not with the idea that we want the other person to change what they are doing, but instead to help us understand why they are doing it.
I guess with all that what I have learned is this. When in a relationship we have to come together and like each other EXACTLY AS WE COME. If we try to change ourselves, or try to change them, or both it will fail. We are who we are. I've never once seen a relationship where people were trying to change work out. Supporting by going to Al-Anon, reading books, that's education and if you gain insight and improve your boundaries doing so, awesome. But I don't see that the same as altering our life to make someone else happy.
You have received awesome ESH (experience strength hope) in this thread!
I always found myself attracted to the older guys, I'm 32. I drew up my timeline from 2002 until now, with the exception of 3 guys every guy I dated was older and with the exception of 2 all had addiction issues and one of those grew up in an alcoholic home... I know the chemistry/magnetism/draw/pull you speak of because it is powerful!
When I met my husband he proposed after 4 weeks. The night we got engaged he was jealous that I was going out with a friend who was in town instead of hanging out with him, that should have been my sign.
Now I have to push and push back hard sometimes in order to maintain the fact that I will hold dear to my friendships. I will make time for my friends and family.
My husband is not in any kind of recovery. I have established as long as he treats me with dignity and respect (two things that were sorely lacking in the begining) then I will continue to stay and enjoy our life together one day at a time. These days I love my life I am happy. In Al-Anon the first meeting you go to you will hear you can find happiness whether the alcoholic is drinking or not and while it took me a long time to believe it I have found it to be true.
Face to face meetings are awesome. We have a wonderful member of my F2F group and her boyfriend is her addict. It's truly an amazing place to be! Welcome to the board!!
I have always been so strong.. and have never been so willing to make sacerfices for a man.. but he just finds something to be pissed off with me all the time.
I have been in two long-term relationships with recovering alcoholics, and both of them also continually looked for things to be pissed off with me about. Trust me, it will chip away at you in time, and if you bend to accommodate him you will gradually feel like you are losing yourself.
Irrational (in my opinion) jealousy was also a feature of both those relationships.
Anyone in an ongoing relationship of any kind with an alcoholic can attend Al-Anon, heck even coworkers can go. I highly recommend it. I too thought of myself as a strong, competent woman but somehow that got lost when I was involved with alcoholics... Al-Anon helped me to find that part of myself again.
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Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could... Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Emerson
It is sooooo easy to "lose yourself" when loving an A and dealing with his/her problems. Will he change? Probably not. Constant "breaking up" and jealousy is difficult to deal with and eventually robs you of your soul. My mission here is not to give you advice, but to urge you to give lots and lots of thought to whether you want to spend the rest of your life with this man --- on and off --- . You no doubt love him with all your heart, but the future with him does not look rosy. And don't we REALLY want rosy? Of course. I wish you luck and happiness whether or not that comes with this man.
With all good wishes,
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Everything you said.. was wonderful. I truly appreciate your time.. I have found a meeting on Monday right around the corner from me, and I am going to go: for me. I am so proud of him for putting his sobritey first.. but sucks for me. Thank you sooo much for you wisdom. It connected to me in many ways. 