"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

GailMichelle · ~*Service Worker*~

the ultimatum

FORGE AHEAD · Member

Anyone that has read my previous post would most likely say, Wow-she is moving fast on these decisions. The fact is, it has been 20years in the making. I am just waking up and finally realizing that I am not the only one that should be responsible for this family. So, the Ultimatum....

Told my AH that he needs to seek counseling for his alcohol addiction or he will need to leave our home. He actually needed to think about it. He called me later and asked me (I hold the insurance)to schedule something and that he would go. I told him that I thought it might be a good idea for us to go as a couple first and then he could then continue with individual counseling to work through his drinking issue. He agreed and I was met with silence when he walked in the door.....

I was excited that he chose to seek counseling and looking forward to moving through this. I texted him "i love you more than ever" before he came home,kissed him when he walked in the door and made his favorite cake for dessert(holy wife from the 50s). Clearly this was not the right emotion to have. He later condemned me for patronizing him and said that I have no right to give him an ultimatum. Really???

The way I see it is that I've been living with this behavior for a long time now and undoubtedly developed some of my own issues that I will need to work through on MY own. He is really lucky to have me in his life and if he wants to keep me in it when our kids are grown and out of the house, he better do some growing up. I am taking this opportunity (my awakening)and doing something with it!

Now, I know Al-anon probably doesn't agree with ultimatums but, I have to force a change. I have touched on this many times before with him and always came away thinking maybe he doesn't have a problem, maybe its me just making it a problem. Now, I'm tired of the petty fights and him closing off and not talking. We need to get the elephant in the room out before we can even see anything else, Right? The drinking(i'm pretty sure) has taken its toll on our marriage and now I am trying to fix it (oh god, there it is-im a fixer). But, am I really a fixer? I haven't done anything for 20 years!

i apologize for the confusing rant. Anyone want to join me?

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

I did the counseling thing with the exAH.

I told him it was my last option if he wanted to stay in our marriage. I told him it was up to him. If he wanted it, he needed to find the counselor and schedule the appointments.

He did at first - I was glad I at least left that up to him, but it still was a situation where I was telling him his behavior was unacceptable but I'll just still stick around despite it all if we're in counseling.

The issue I had with couple's counseling was that it kept the focus on the other person. Him versus me. He did this and that. Well she said this and that. We went back and forth like this for a few months. Then he conveniently found excuses not to go to counseling. So I went on my own and continued going to Al-Anon and meeting with my sponsor. What I got out of the private counseling was stuff I'd been getting out of Al-Anon and my sponsor for the last three years.

Eventually I did tell my exAH I'd had enough and very calmly, even sadly, told him I wanted a divorce. And I meant it. I was done.

As Gail said, if the A wants to change, they're going to do whatever it takes to change and not look for excuses or take the victim role with someone. They're just going to DO it.

That's fine you set an ultimatum. The important part for consistency is following through. Don't make ultimatums you're not willing to follow through on only for the reason that when the A sees you won't follow through, they'll know that's one more area where they can stomp over your boundaries because they've seen in the past that you don't follow through. I hate using this as an example, but active A's are like children. If you don't follow through on promised consequences with children, they learn they can continue behaving badly because they know you're never going to do what you say you're going to do.

Now, this is NOT saying "Well, you're up a creek now. You HAVE to leave him because you said you would if he didn't do what you asked of him." If you're not ready, you're NOT ready and you need to trust that. But I will say this is a tremendous learning opportunity for you, nonetheless.

FORGE AHEAD · Member

Ok, I feel like I have thought this through and I am so aware that I have to treat him like a 12 year old. He will be the one that must leave if he doesn't change. He knows that and i don't see him ever making the choice to leave our kids (what kind of message would that send? Everyone). He cares too much about what other people think. I have told him that he can not drink in the house and if we are at an event and he starts to drink, I leave. I have NOT told him that he cant drink, just that he needs to seek help with his addiction. He still thinks he can do it on his own (since he only drinks on the weekends). Where Aloha said "Eventually I did tell my exAH I'd had enough and very calmly, even sadly, told him I wanted a divorce. And I meant it. I was done." thats where I am. Again, he is lucky to have me and he needs me more than I need him, I am sure(sounds a little arrogant I guess) . Not so sure he needs me more than his Beer though? That is yet to be seen and I am ready to face that possibility.
My only concern in all of this is our kids. I'm not concerned about myself, although I would like our marriage to work out. Im not concerned about my AH, although I pray for him to feel better and get healthy(thank god he still works out). I am concerned about my kids and how our family will effect the decisions they make in their lives. As I do believe that the spouse you choose somehow can be almost sniffed out in a room full of people. From our childhood I believe our brains are constantly evaluating, on a very subconscious level, the way a person moves, sounds, reacts, everything. We take that information with us into adulthood and choose what we know, what we're comfortable with. I dont want that comfort to be an alcoholic for my kids! I may have waited too long but now is the right time for me.

Dolly Llama · Senior Member

In my experience, and please, this is my experience only...I am not trying to doomsday anyone...

Counseling, especially couple's counseling, only gave my AH more tools to avoid dealing with his addiction.

Of course I was not a perfect spouse. I was also very willing to accept fault and do ANYTHING to "fix" my marriage. So couples counseling gave me plenty of opportunities to practice my toxic codependancy.

It is hard to find a counselor that really understands and is trained in addiction as it pertains to relationships.

We did have one couple's counselor (we tried a few, my AH wasn't happy with any of them) who saw through the b.s. and flat out said- until your drinking is treated, there is no point to couple's counseling. It is like trying to fix an airplane while it is still in the air. My AH got very angry and walked out of the session. I continued to see her on my own, as well as participating in Al Anon meetings, and as my denial slowly melted away, so did my desire to stay in a marriage with an active alcoholic.

We really, really can't change them. Counseling can't change them and even sitting in an AA meeting can't change them. They have to want to change. And when someone really wants to change, wild horses couldn't drag them away from their recovery program. There is always a way.

Well, this is just my opinion only. Take what you like and leave the rest!

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

It sounds to me as if your "ultimatum" is also a boundary -- if he continues to drink, you have to protect yourself by leaving the marriage. Of course the alcoholic always thinks that others should put up with their continued drinking, but we have to protect ourselves as best we see fit.

Your A now knows that you are serious in your objections to his behavior, and that he can either agree to consider recovery or he can choose to live with the bottle but without his marriage.

I think we also have to go through a period where we try everything available to us. Then we know that if it didn't work, there are no "if only"s that will haunt us.

So he will either go into and stay in recovery, or not. Then you will know what the next step is.

I do agree with what others have said about counseling. My ex-AH and I saw four counselors over the years, and none of them addressed his drinking seriously. One got him to promise that he wouldn't drink any more -- you can guess how successful that was. The fact that the counselor believed that would solve the problem shows how naive the counselor was. The others treated it as if it was just an interpersonal disagreement, not something that underlay the whole relationship. "So she says you drink excessively -- what's your response to that?" Of course he would deny it and the counselor took that equally seriously. "Mattie, he says you're just trying to control him. What's your response to that?" We got nowhere. One counselor I saw privately said that she never took clients with addiction issues unless they were simultaneously seriously working a recovery program such as AA. But none of the marriage counselors we saw said anything about that. So you might want to keep those cautions in mind as you think about counseling options.

Sending you lots of support!

FORGE AHEAD · Member

Dolly Llama-I know you are right. I just keep thinking that my husband is the type that needs to be lead and shown the right direction. Do you know he actually asked me at one point during the last two weeks, 'why now, why haven't you ever pushed this before' (and I,,,,,almost felt like it was partially my fault). Like when all his friends were going through it. Well, because he is a gentelman and a nice man. And even when he drinks he is quiet about it and not a drunken belligerant fool. I thought I could live like this and now i don't.

Something that's eating me is he keeps saying that he doesn't like the way I perceive him? I think he is ashamed. Is he trying to make me feel guilty by putting words/thoughts in my mouth.

Dolly Llama · Senior Member

The more I tried to figure my AH out, the farther away I got from myself and my own perceptions and feelings. I lived in his head. I could tell you why he did something, what he really meant, what he was trying to do, why it wasn't/was going to work, what he would do next, the alternate of what he would do if Behavior A didn't work, exactly how he was trying to manipulate me, what his agenda was, etc.

But I couldn't remember what *I* had for lunch yesterday.

I rolled with my AH's drinking for a long time. It became a problem when it became a problem...when I realized the damage it was doing to me to ignore that it was a problem.

I suspect your H doesn't like the way he thinks you perceive him because he doesn't like who he is in his own mind. Addicts generally resist being told they have a substance abuse problem. I have never once heard of one saying, "Oh gosh, you're right. Thank you so much for pointing this out! This is totally my #1 problem! What would I do without you? I'm going to get into treatment immediately!!!"

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

Hugs Forge,

What I found for myself and this is true across the board when I got sick and tired of being sick and tired I did something about it. Take what you like and leave the rest kind of post .. lol .. because truthfully everyone is different. You have gotten some wonderful ESH. I ditto the counseling, been there done that and it takes 2 parties to truly get help.

The doing something doesn't have to be about leaving. I started drawing boundaries and taking care of myself. When that started happening the anger he was feeling started to escalate .. I stopped our unspoken agreement and of course alanon was all about him. Which is so not true.

The kids are doing great. I'm sure it's not easy either on them. If I am ok .. they are going to be ok. It just is going to take time and lots of open communication and a lot of honesty. It is soooo much better than it has been in the past for them. It's so easy to see that now. My daughter has verbalized to me that she is so much more relaxed at home and even with her dad because there is no more unspoken hostility as she said it .. pretty big for a 12 year old (she just turned 13 in April).

Hugs P :)

FORGE AHEAD · Member

Don't Understand that pushka. When I create a boundary (ei, he cant drink in our home), It DOES create hostility. I am "drawing a line in the sand". He gets mad and we stop communicating. I try to push through but he keeps closing off. If I don't set boundaries, I am just avoiding the problem in OUR marriage. How can we live in a relationship that is so separate? I am going to al-anon meetings but really don't understand how creating boundaries isn't telling someone what they can and can't do. Especially if the AH is needy.

What am I supposed to do just ignore that he heads down into the basement with a twelve pack Friday and Saturday night and be ok with it?

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

It takes time to learn the difference between trying to control another person and what is a boundary (what is ok and is not ok for ourselves). What has been explained to me is boundaries are promises to myself about me for me. My AH can drink or not .. I don't have to be around it, neither do our minor children. My AH can create drama or not .. I don't have to respond to it. That's not about controlling him it's about knowing what I feel good about. I no longer have to be treated as if I am unimportant. That is totally about me .. it's not about making him go to rehab or not. Personally, no drinking around the kids is a boundary for me. This is based upon some very scary experiences when he has been so drunk he can't even stand up. I can remove myself from the situation. I have that right.

There are consequences for my boundaries .. one of them for me is he decided I wasn't making him "feel good" so he got his "feel goods" outside the marriage. When I started changing my behavior though it's like dropping a pebble in a puddle of still water there are always ripple effects. As I change so do others around me. It's a catalyst effect .. it's not about me controlling the situation it's about me just letting things occur organically. I have no regrets about the boundaries I have created for myself .. I feel better than I have for a very LONG time. I'm very very grateful for that too.

He's going to drink or not .. what am I going to do. That has been my mantra for about the last 120 days.

Keep coming back it gets better.

Hugs P :)

Dolly Llama · Senior Member

Boundaries are tricky to learn to do. It helped me to remember that boundaries were about ME, not the alcoholic.

Some of my boundaries are- I walk away from verbal abuse. I do not go to bars with alcoholics. I do not get in cars with alcoholics. I do not loan money to friends.

Etc.

See how this is different from- AH is not allowed to drink in the house.

My boundaries are MY rules for life. The emotional dress code for my private proverbial club. They are focused on how *I* will respond to any given situation.

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

Al-Anon honestly doesn't "should" people, one way or the other.... it does NOT advocate, being a doormat, nor does it advocate any specific action or behavior out of us....

The true meaning of recovery is learning how to take care of yourself, and loving & respecting yourself - regardless of what the A does or doesn't do... Sounds like - for you - that is what you are doing, and I applaud you for it....

If I sound a tad defensive about our program - I am. It is a tried and proven program that has worked for literally millions of people who live (or choose not to live) around alcoholism and addiction.

Tom

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

Ultimatums rarley get the result were looking for the only thing that works is if the alcoholic decides its time to get help . As for him agreeing to councelling , an alcoholic will do and promise anything to get us off thier backs . Until he says that alcohol is causing him a problem it ISN'T its causing you a problem Al-Anon will help please find meetings for yourself you need support . Louise

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

As I understand it, an ultimatum is fundamentally about what they should do, and a boundary is fundamentally about what we're going to do.

So the same thing could be either one.

Ultimatum: "You have to go into recovery, or if you don't, I will punish you by leaving."

Boundary: "I am not able to live with active alcoholism any more. If you don't feel you can commit to a program of recovery, I will have to protect myself by leaving."

We never have to endure terrible behavior. However, we also are unable to change them. (If we could, we would!) So our option for when the behavior becomes unendurable is to set a boundary for ourself.

It's hard. Hugs.

printig · Newbie

The way I see it, if you don't want to live with a drunk, you have the right to ask him to work on getting sober or leave. Those are pretty much your options.

It's the whole, "change your attitude or change your address" thing.

Alanon doesn't make a rule on ultimatums (or anything else for that matter) -- although it does recommend you not making threats you aren't going to stick to. And I might add, don't attempt to manipulate an alcoholic into getting treatment by making threats you don't intend to keep. Not saying that's what you are doing -- just saying.

That said, I don't know how long you've been in the program, but it's not recommended to make drastic life decisions your first six months in Alanon. Some people find that they are able to change their attitudes to be able to "find serenity whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not."

In other words, some Alanons have learned ways to cope with living with an alcholic so they are able to be happy and serene. Others have decided that they no longer wish to stay in a relationship with someone whose most significant relationship is with a bottle.

"There are no musts in Alanon."

If someone tells you to kick your husband out or to continue to live with him, they aren't following Alanon teachings. Only you know what is right for you -- but, sometimes we need some time to reach clarity on that. Forced solutions are generally countproductive.

Wish you the best. We are here for you in spirit.

FORGE AHEAD · Member

Thanks to everyone. These posts are really helping me see more clearly. I really do appreciate them all. Thank you.

ilovedogs · ~*Service Worker*~

My therapist recently told me that I need to start phrasing things using the "I" statements like what Mattie stated above. Instead of: You have to seek recovery or else our marriage is over, I need to change it to: I cannot live with your alcohol abuse any longer. I'd like to see you commit to a recovery program but if that is unacceptable to you then maybe we should try a separation. She basically told me that I have to start putting "I" first. What do I want for me and what can I say about it to him without making it seem like I am controlling him? Personally, I'm still working on it and have not actually spoken any of my boundaries yet.

Every situation is different. I'm taking my time to be sure that what I say is said in the right way, with no malice, and with the right heart and intention behind it. Basically, I am working on loving myself first, writing down what I really want out of a marriage and out of life, and then working my Al Anon program. I wait on my Higher Power to guide me to the next step and I truly feel that I am taking baby steps, but that's OK. Everybody's path is different and yes, it can be frustrating but I remind myself that the reward is a greater sense of self awareness and love and I am so grateful for the lessons I am learning today.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi, the thing is, we forget that we are non A's. They do not think like a non A. An ultimatum to an A is us being bossy and wanting to control them. So they do the opposite. My own A and other A's have told me, they do not work.

The thing is his drinking, attitude etc. are all none of our business. It also is bothering you, not him.

We cannot change anyone but ourselves.

What he does is him, no one wants their spouse telling them how to be. Being married does not mean we have to conform to their desires. Nor do they have to change to ours.

So we work on our self. We learn skills to detach, we decide what we cannot live with, if it is something that a boundary AND consequence will work to help, then it is a good thing. Both have to agree.

A's are not doing what they do on purpose. They are very sick people. It is nothing personal,nothing to get mad at.

They can mean what they say one moment then forget the next.

What we do is learn to live with an A if we choose to stay. We change us, not them. We will never change them in a way that can make us happy.

We accept them as is, and we learn skills to live with them. Sometimes all we can do is love them, enjoy them while they are too ill to enjoy.

We can stay as we are beating our heads against a wall we will never change and be miserable, mad, bitter etc.

Or we can choose to not live with them.

I know I would not want my loved one giving me ultimatums. It's my life, if I have a disease, I cannot change that. Besides their BRAINS are damaged, they cannot think as a non A brain does. If we could see their insides I think we would be less inclined to blame, we would understand what we are dealing with. You cannot make a broken arm work correctly no matter how mad you get at it, no matter what altimatums you give it. You have to accept its limitations.

No one makes us live with them.

Boundaries are things we cannot live with. So we do our best to work with the A to make our life together still be.

To be able to live together these are the things I need, put the bottles in the recycle bin, Please take them in every week. If you don't I will put them in the drivers seat of your car. ,YOUR choice.

If you are drinking, I will have the choice to go read or watch tv, go see a friend whatever to not be around it. And I hope you know not to take it personally as I would rather be here with you sober.

If you go downstairs to drink, I do not want to sleep with you, so please sleep down there.

just examples.

boundaries have to have a consequence, not punishment but a stated thing that will happen if it is broken.What you have to do to stay sane.

We have no right to take away anyones dignity. They are sick, then did not choose to be A.

This is my ESH. hugs,debilyn

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"