Need ESH - Al-Anon Family Group

pressing on · Newbie

Need ESH

AStrongerMe · ~*Service Worker*~

I have one of my kids who I have a very hard time detaching from. Honestly, compared to his "issues" I'm probably the most detached. Short background:

He's 13. He's got mental health issues. He's got a genius IQ. He engages in HIGH LEVEL adult and peer manipulation using several self destrictive tools that resort in constant consequences and basically the majority if his life is spent with no priveledges. He's on a collision course with disaster and everyone in his life has come to the recognition that we can no longer help him.

I have a hard time detaching because I love this kid to death. He's my son. None of my kids are perfect, I never engage in comparisons and they all bring me different things. This kid, when he's in a good place is capable of incredible things. I've tried music, horses, art, dancing - anything to try and help get this kid to "connect" but he won't.

So talks have been ongoing now for several months about sending him to his dad's aunt in Southern California. The idea is to remove him from the environment where he is constantly engaging everyone, constantly provoking and/or manipulating and causing the houses (both dad's house and mine) to be "on edge". In addition, she is a retired Special Ed teacher and will have the time to get really involved in his school and be there to be sure he's not coming home to an empty house and watching TV for 2 hours after school, or sitting in class doing nothing at all and failing. She can really work with him and it would be a sort of "last Hurrah" because we've basically told him "until you are 18, it's our job to do everything in our power to be sure you are educated, what you do after that is your choice".

We already know and accept that we CAN'T make him do anything but the idea here is the hope that removing him from the environment (taking away his audience), and having an adult that is more able to be involved (not much we can do here with dual full time working households) - that we just sit back and see what happens.

And she's not all warm fuzzy happy joy joy. He will not have his stuff with him and will be doing a lot of work around her house, reading and not much else.

So here is where I'm struggling. I normally do well with these kind of decisions but this one I can't seem to do. And I know it's about me and my stuff. I have a level of "feel sorry for" my son that I can't break loose. I can't put down the past - he dealt with abuse (pretty severe emotional by his dad, it stopped a couple years ago but still), divorce (two of them as my ex thought a second marraige a year later was a good idea) and honestly chaos that was in the home while his dad and I were married.

I want so badly for this kid to pull his head out - and I KNOW I can't do it for him. I KNOW I've tried everything I can. I KNOW he's capable and chosing not too. And I believe this may be our last chance to reach him.

So why can't I say "yes, lets do this"?

And it's spurred because once again, he is suspended for behavior and once again, he lost the end of the year party (he loses it every year since 1st grade, no joke).

I'm very worried he's going to think I'm abandoning him after all that's gone on. I know that's one part but I can't quite identify the other part.

I'm open to whatever you want to say to me on this one... I mean that. I do not want anything sugar coated because I need to SEE something I'm missing and I may need a 2 x 4 to the side of my head if needed. I clearly have some sort of blinders on with this kiddo.

Oh and yes, his behaviors ARE that extreme. He's been inpatient 3 times, he's on major medication just to function at this level... and a large majority of what he does IS intentional. This isn't average teenage bad behavior by any means.

Smukke · Veteran Member

Hi AStrongerMe,

Your son reminds me a lot of my little step brother. He moved in with my family when he was four and created a good deal of chaos... It is difficult to say what happened why. I think I can see today that he basically never had a chance to be good. If he was nice, he was manipulative. If he was bad, it was typical. If someone else did something wrong, we said he would do the same.

In reality, he was the most emotionally honest person in the family. He was not scared to cry or to say how much he loved someone. Others in the family would rather be silent and act as ice bricks.

I really think that some detachment from my parents' site would have served him more than their constant nagging and bailing him out of any trouble.

I have the feeling you know the answer for your son. What does he think about it? You know, when I was young, my mother (after the divorce) was some kind of place where I would have to go if I wasn't nice. For my step brother it was his home country. Although not meant seriously, it took away a good deal of stability for me. It is probably also one of the reasons for my high blood pressure and anxiety today. I mean, being with the people you love (my dad in those days) was never spoken of, but my mother lived of disabled benefits and I was scared that she would not be able to buy me proper food and clothes.

I wish you and your son the best! I so like your honesty and readiness.

Temple · ~*Service Worker*~

Bless his heart.
That must have been so hard on him--the abuse and the chaos. And he brighter and probably more sensitive than the average child. And with mental
illness on top of everything.
I don't have any answers.
My grandson was driving my daughter and son-in-law nuts when he was 11. He would lie about everything. They had nothing left to take away from him.
And then he turned on a dime and by 12 was great and it's gotten better ever since. He's grown now, the best person I know, and I find it hard to
remember how he was. I do know I didn't want to be around him at that age--he was so sarcastic.
There was no overt abuse in the home, but Dad was on his way out and lying, and he may have known more than he let on.
He went into a very good prep school at that time and I always wondered if his peers helped straighten him out.
I feel for both of you.
Can you ask him how it will feel to go live with the aunt? And what a saint she must be, BTW. Does he have any ideas? I hope he doesn't feel that he is
being punished, but rather that maybe he'll be happier there.
I remember when somebody on the board a few years ago had a troubled child and Debilyn was wishing she could take her in--I know she was wonderful
with the children she worked with.
Have you tried talk therapy? A really, really good kid whisperer?
I was going to ask if you'd read Dreikerr's Children: The Challenge, but you mentioned natural consequences, so I'm sure you are up on all of that.
You both are in my prayers. The whole family. The situation has to be so difficult for everyone.
Hugs,
Temple

AStrongerMe · ~*Service Worker*~

We've been going through this now for 5 years unfortunately. Everything said here is true, sensitive, smarter, more in tune. Anytime he's "good" it's to get something. It's sad.

He's chewed up and spit out 3 therapists. He measures them up, reads them and manipulates them. The 3rd was aware of it and called him on it but never could get through to him. Two walked away from him.... he was like 7 with the first and 9 with the second. So you can imagine.

When we talked to him we got the same "eh, don't care" reaction and then worse behavior immediately following to see if we would actually follow through. It's a game to him. It's sad and self destructive sadly.

I'm coming more and more to terms with this but hardest thing I'll ever do, hands down. I'd rather send him to military school or boarding school but we can't afford either (and I looked into every option).

Thanks all. This is just not going to be easy.

Temple · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't imagine anything has ever been easy with this child--including his birth, I have a feeling.

I have a friend who is in Mensa. She said the key to good therapy is to find somebody smarter than the patient, else the above described is what happens.
Luck with that, huh?

It's just my opinion, but I think he'll be better off with the aunt. Military and boarding schools can be grim. Grandson's school was prep, but no boarders.

Keep talking it out. I know you are considering the other two children, as well. I would think that having him there is perhaps pretty hard on everybody.

Please let us know how it goes.

We will pray for the aunt, as well.

BlueCloud · Senior Member

When I face a challenging decision, I often wobble-wobble-wobble until I begin to ground my decision in the principles of the program.

For me, I use the steps, yes, but I also use the traditions to work through a problem.

A sponsor can be an invaluable sounding board. So, too, might be a seasoned and experienced therapist.

Who can you talk to who can really help you get to the bottom of a solution that you can stand 1000% behind? I'm thinking you need a guide here - someone who can ask you question after question until a very clear solution and plan are put into place.

Whatever it is that you are worried about, needs an answer. It needs a game plan so you can feel confident. Maybe right now you feel good about certain aspects of the plan but are unclear or uncertain about others. Whatever it is that is nagging at you needs to be addressed.

My questions for you would include the following:

Is the Aunt truly equipped to deal with all aspects of your son? Yes, she can handle the education. But is she equipped to address the mental health aspects? Can she truly handle any acting out behaviours?
She is your ex-husband's Aunt. How well do you know her? How will you supervise/monitor her "care" or "treatment"?
Have you asked the Aunt every question you have about how she would handle him? Are you confident in her answers?
Have you seen her house? Visited her neighborhood? Do you truly know her?
Any chance this arrangement could jeopardize family relationships if it doesn't work? What happens if your exhusband thinks it's working and you don't or vice versa?
You'll be in different states. Will the Aunt have legal authority over him? What happens if he gets sick or hurt, etc.?
How will you communicate with his Aunt? How will she communicate with you?
How will you educate the Aunt about his manipulative tactics?
How long will he stay there? Who decides the time with his Aunt is completed?
How will you determine it is "working"?
What will you do if it is not "working"?
Can a single family member do what you + his dad + professionals could not do?
Will you take him out of his current school and enroll him in a school near his Aunt's?
Are there services in your State/County that could provide wholistic, intensive, residential care that are free or subsidized?
Is it time to consider residential options for him (I realize these are expensive, but it may be what he needs)? Or, can you put into place a wholistic treatment plan at home or his Aunt's? Can you dream up what you think would be the best solution (even if you don't know how you would get the money to do it) - just to see what you truly think the solution is?
Consider this decision and how you will feel in 10 weeks, 10 months, and 10 years? Do your answers reveal anything to you?
Have you spoken to a professional and gotten professional advice? Have you spoken to parents in a similar situation about what did and didn't work?
Have you taken this decision through the traditions? Have you considered if this is in your son's "common welfare"? Will this option truly help him and give him the tools he needs, for instance.

We say: When in doubt, don't. I would say that right now the answer for you doesn't seem to be "YES!" so I would wait. Get input, pray, write. And, most importantly, get your concerns answered. Maybe this is exactly what you will do, but not until you have your concerns answered.

BlueCloud

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I think BlueCloud has made some great point (as have others). It may be that your gut is telling you something important.

What I learned from a kind of family therapy called Family Systems Therapy is that some children are the "identified problem." They sort of take on the problems of the whole family and become "the one with the problem" to disguise the other pain and issues that are going on. They serve as a distractor. That's where they get their identity, and it can be very hard for them to realize it's safe to express their other sides. I wonder if a good family counselor would be helpful in thinking this through. Sad to say that not all counselors are good. I have been through some doozies that would make someone sick even if they started out the healthiest person in the world. And some who were well-meaning and tried but just didn't have a lot of oomph. So three counselors might not be a lot if they were the wrong ones. So just to say that "going through three counselors" might say more about the counselors than about the child.

Clearly this isn't something you should have to manage without a lot of support. I'm glad you came here, and hope you can get all the other support you can in thinking through the future.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

You know it almost sounds like he has Aspergers. He reminds me so much of a kid I worked with when he was in high school. Took me awhile but he finally opened up with me.

I wish I could meet him. This is what I did in part of my career, evaluations. For some reason I "get" things from the most unusual people.

For me, I wonder, what does he want? Does he just say nothing? What is his favorite thing to do? What is his passion? Sounds like you did super well intro'ing him to many things.

Myself do not use negative reinforcement. Sounds like he has gotten that since he was little, and look at all the attention he has gotten. Some people learn that is how they get attention. It just ingrains itself in them.

One little boy in kindergarten, oh man, everyone would be in a group listening to a story and there L would be,climbing on the back counters...he was a caution.

I caught him doing something really cool. so I made him as star that said,"My teacher is very proud of me." I watched L grow till he was out of high school. Saw him once and he told me he still had that star and I will never know how much it meant to him.

I wonder what would happen if he got zero attention when he makes his mistakes or manipulations? No consequences nothing. But when he follows well lets say he did the dishes with you after dinner,he gets lots of hugs and love and whatever positive. He gets kicked out of school, lets say, so you see him and say, well thats not a choice I would have made.

I worked with kids at risk, tough kids. I never looked at the F's. I looked at the d's and above. if they mentioned it I would just tell them well look like you just have more to learn huh?

It just may be he has to find his own way very early. Sorta like detaching from the A. Love him, provide his needs. He will suffer consequences at school, or where ever. But you know after all these years have negative ones helped at all? nope.

For me, sending him away is the most horrible thing to do. He has been working hard for those negative consequences, proving what a bad kid he can be.Yet you still keep him. To send him away is like like saying yes you are bad now we are going to throw you away.

Now this is just one way to look at it. I may be right, I may be wrong.

And remember mental illness is that, he is sick. Maybe he suffers some brain damage. Has he been checked for allergies, some people act really off when they don't get enough B vitamins.

Does he eat right? Drink lotsa water. How much sugar does he eat.

It can be so many things.

If you want to pm me privately I am happy to listen and see what I feel, or what I might get from more info.

I don't see what good it would do to send him away. I guess I want to know more about his emotions or lack of them. need more info.

My son was no picnic either hon. He is now 35 and Iam sooo darn proud of him and his sister. I can tell ya some things I did.

I do care very, very much. I love these kids, they were the best ones to be around to me. Sorta like taking in an abused animal,which I have done all my life. Animal sanctuary on five acres for 11 years.

These kids need us the most. I am so proud of you for hanging in there. I know its hard as you have other kids. Hey my brother was a turkey too. btw my son has a super IQ as did my brothers and I. It always sounds good but believe me it can get so tiring always being ON. One of my best times was falling off my horse and hitting my head. I was an airhead for a few months. was so nice. lol

Anyway of course ya love the little scoundrel! I am here if you need me!

hugs,debilyn

Smukke · Veteran Member

I told you about my step brother above and I have to agree with Mattie. My brother WAS acting out the family's problems. The interesting point is, when my mother, the "family problem" moved out, my step brother moved in and was the new "family problem".

What I also meant above is that no one in the family really gave him a chance to be good. Say, really nice behavior was just called "manipulative" and whenever he was aggressive and lying and calling his brother "son of a ...." we said that this is how he is.

Another interesting point is that there is such a scapegoat in my partner's family as well. There are many similarities and although his family is doing the best, they ARE consantly nagging about her and expect the worst from her. Sometimes when I hear my or my partner's parents talking I have the impression, they enjoy the gossip and the moral superiority. You know what I mean?

By the way I see symptoms of mental problems in mt brother, and he was diagnosed with ADHS or so. I recently learned that children like that have symptoms of mental problems, but sometimes they do not have the illness.

Many things we write remind me a lot of the alcoholics in our lives. Detachment issues, diagnosed mental problems which CAN just be linked to the alcoholism, poor coping skills, .... My brother later became a drug addict and my parents are codependents from the book.

I recently found some resources to read about problems children (often scapegoats), although not from Al-Anon. I think, working the steps helps here as well. If my dad starts talking to me again and the situation arises I would definitely suggest he goes to a similar group for families of drug addicts.

Smukke · Veteran Member

Tell me if I am getting too frank here, please. I am still trying to figure out how to be direct, honest and out of denial, but still don't want to walk into other's people's spheres.

Thinking about families made me think about how my AB (alcoholic boyfriend) sometimes talks to me and what it does with me. He criticises me a lot and very often he talks as if he has a picture of me which is more an extreme caricature of a person than really me. Recently, after we got very lucky finding a parking space, he said "You see, you just saw the problem and complained. I saw the chance." I replied "Honey, you are the one who is complaining about me." Sometimes though, I cannot put his criticism into perspective, especially before Al-Anon. I somewhat believed what he said, took it personal and allowed my self-confidence to be shattered. He wanted me to behave in certain ways, but communicated to me in the same time indirectly that he thinks I would not change anyway. Thus, I often did the opposite. For example, he asks me to go out and talk to people. He would often say something like this "Just do it!" and whenever he finds an example of my bad or his wanted behaviour he would tell me "You see, so and so just does so and it works." As we were working together this has devastating results. Then I often cried, I felt so shy and incapable and thought "What on earth is wrong with me???" Basically I just had to walk out of his manipulation and make decisions for myself. I decided that I want to go my own way in my professional career and I certainly feel smart and confident again.

I am sure, if we don't work on our issues, and get three children, for example, we will inevitably raise another version of my little brother or his little sister. This is one of my main motivations to jump head first into the programme, share a lot in the meetings and dig out all the bad stuff.

AStrongerMe · ~*Service Worker*~

I want to thank everyone for their awesome ESH. Yes, much of the recommended "questions" have been answered. And the hesitation i finally realized was rooted in my "what ifs" and the unknown. This plan has no guarantees...funny I'm pretty sure that's normal LOL. He's going today. I told him last night, and for the first time in years, the little boy reacted and surfaced and real emotions came out. As we talked though, he alternated between his feelings and his sick mind. Reminded me of an alcoholic! The begging, borrowing, pleading followed by the rage and not accepting his actions. By this morning, we had hugged a lot, said I love you a lot and he seemed to accept this was real. He's in the same state, we retain custody so if I think anything is amiss, I just go get him. Weekend drive. He needed something to shake him to the core. This may be it. If it isn't, we just move forward. Hardest thing I've ever done. Hands down. I'm at peace with it, but it hurts.

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