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Hi everyone! I'm new here. I went to my first Al-anon meeting this week and found a warm environment, full of loving people. After the meeting, a woman took me aside and talked with me. When I asked her about the lying, she was so nonchalant about it. "oh, lying is just part of the disease." with a wave of the hand.
Wow.
Lying is destroying my marriage. Lying is changing the way I feel about my husband. Lying is why I have this sick feeling inside of my stomach.
Will I really be able to wave my hand with some Zen-like understanding and know that the lying is no big deal aka part of the disease?
Well .. it's not that lying isn't a big deal (my perception) however what has happened for me is seeing my AH vs seeing the disease. When I can see the disease I stop taking it all personally. The lying is not about me. It's how hard and fast the disease has my AH that it needs it's fix so bad.
It doesn't make the lying any less damaging (I'm sure not going to believe what my AH says) .. it puts things into perspective for me that he's going to lie or not lie the responsibility of how I choose to react is on me.
Congrats on going to your meetings!! Congrats that you are taking the first steps in your healing, it's such a great place to be!!
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
Well said, Pushka. And welcome to the newcomer. Its my experience that if you like everything you hear in meetings, then you haven't been to enough of them. As for the lying being part of the disease, it definitely is. You see, alcohol doesn't cause alcoholism, so the drinking ain't the real problem. Its just a symptom of a much deeper problem. To borrow a quote from a non Alanon book, it is the defects of character within an alcoholic that are the primary cause of his drinking and his failure at life. Dishonesty is one of the major ones. Its right up there with denial. Anyway, that's all stuff you'll come to learn gradually. I been around a while and most days I don't feel very Zen-like. I hope I never do.
So once again welcome. You're in the right place.
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Not all my days are priceless, but none of them are worthless, anymore.
Hi House Cat ( cute name ) Welcome to Miracles in Progress
You have received some great responses. I would just like to add that the disease of alcoholism is a progressive disease. Being a disease it has identifiable symptoms universal to people who suffer from this illness. A sample of these are: Denial, Lying, Unable to stop drinking,isolation, , obsession etc.
Accepting that our partners suffer from this disease enables alanon members to also accept the symptoms.
We are powerless over this disease. We did not cause it, cannot control it, and cannot cure it. The best we can do is search out alanon face to face meetings, learn to focus on ourselves and begin the difficult task of regaining our lives and our hopes and dreams.
Please keep coming back You too will be above to respond in a constructive manner to this disease.
Aloha House Cat (I agree...cute) and what you were watching with that group member was "oldtimer detachment" She was demonstrating her powerlessness acceptance over the disease and the lying character of the alcoholic. I don't know about Zen like but reaching her level of acceptance and detachement was and still is a goal of mine. She's got a Higher Power that really works for her.
Lying is a symptom of fear. Your alcoholic is experiencing it and fear is the center emotional defect of the disease. They experience it and we do also and they get to lie about it for now because facing the truth is no-man's land.
Do another meeting and another and as many as you can for the next 90days and practice not letting his drinking distract you from increasing your awareness of our disease and how we recover from it. Yay for you.
I agree that the lying hurts. The lying hurt me more than the actual using. I felt like he thought I was completely stupid, to look right into my eyes and just lie like that, when I knew very well what the truth was. I cried, begged, and pleaded with him not to lie about using because it hurts me. It hasn't worked. He lies because he wants to avoid any obstacles in his way when he wants to use. And I am an obstacle. Even if I don't get mad about it, he knows I won't approve, and thus I am an obstacle. He finds it easier to say nothing and just lie. What you have to do is learn not to let the lies hurt you. When he starts taking recovery seriously, honesty will come. But for now, know that it is just part of the disease. And like someone else said, you have to learn to tell the difference between your husband and the addict. You can love your husband dearly and despise his addiction. Alanon can help you do that.
-- Edited by AsphyxiateOnMisery on Monday 16th of April 2012 08:50:53 AM
My exA got to the point that he lied about everything...and though yes, it is a symptom of the disease, it's difficult to run a household with someone who repeatedly lies (about money, about where he was, etc)
Yes, it's a symptom of the disease, but one I could not live with, ultimately. I DID stop taking it personally...I used to think "how can he think so little of me, of our marriage by deceiving me so? Doesn't he love me?" That is the headspace alanon can help with...it's not about YOU...it is a symptom of the disease.
It's maddening, but true..you can't expect the truth as long as an A is active in his/her disease. They will always change the story to suit the addiction and use.
Hello House Cat - the lying isn't "no big deal", it hurts, it made me feel like he thought I was really that dumb to believe his lies. Mr. Ex would tell me he would lie to someone else (to get out of or deny something), then act all affronted if I didn't believe every word he said. Its "no big deal" to him, he doesn't see anything really wrong with lying to people if it gets him what he wants or where he wants to go. But - I don't hurt from it anymore because I really do see that the lies are part of the package of dealing with an alcoholic - mine never wants to be seen as anything but the victim/good guy so he lies to take the blame off his shoulders and put it on others. Lying IS a big deal to me, I hate being lied to because the person doing the lying assumes I'm dumb enough to swallow the lie hook, line, and sinker. But I'm strong enough to handle people not liking the truth and I know that the truth is so much easier because my memory can't remember details of a lie.
I no longer hurt from his lies though, because of everything else I've learned through Al-anon and a few other readings/places. The lies he told me aren't personally meant to hurt me; they are what he uses to get things to go his way.
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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
You don't know how detached that woman is from her qualifier. It could be she is divorced for years or is totally at peace with some of the behaviors she has seen or sees from her qualifier. I guess it would be good to focus on the fact that that woman was pretty serene and she was a calm person right? That's something we strive for.
Not to say that what you are describing is not devastating, but if other people in the rooms just tell you how horrible your situation is, that won't help you much right?
My "favorite" lie from my wife was when I came across an empty bottle of wine in her car. I asked her about it and she said she had no idea how it get there, then said with a completely straight face "I was at an AA meeting, one of the drunks must have put it in there!". I can laugh about it now, partly because I understand that this comes with the territory.
I've been lied to more times than I can count, everyone here has.
One thing I have learned is to stop asking the questions that will lead to lies. "Have you been drinking?" was the one that got me in trouble all of the time. The answer to that question was never yes, no matter how drunk she was.
The lying is very painful but as others have said, it just comes with the territory unfortunately.
For me, I came to accept that a lie takes two people: one to tell it and one to believe it. I can't control the one telling it (unless, of course I am the teller), but I can control the one believing it: me. I don't have to believe everything I hear. If my AH is only lying to himself, it kinda takes the fun out of the game.
I thought about this during my morning bus drive - I try hard to remember the raw-emotionalness of being new; to guard against conveying a cavalier they-all-do-that attitude at newcomers - my experiences up to this point allow me to regard the lying for what it is, but to someone who has just come to al-anon desperate to find peace and answers it is easy to unintentionally add to their hurt because I've been there, done that; instead I let empathy guide me, put myself in their place and remember what it was like.
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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
I remember those days of such utter devastation..my heart goes out to you. For me the lying, whether it was part of the disease, the person, or acha recter defect... was something I simply could not incorporate into my concept of a relationship , let alone a marriage. I walked away from 30 years of marriage..(he ended up filing for the divorce)..but the lying had eroded the trust, the lack of trust eroded respect, and the lack of respect destroyed any feelings of love. I chose not to continue living with a person I no longer trusted, respected , and ultimately no longer loved. I am not one bit sorry that I made the choice that I did..for me it was the only way I could respect myself.
It took me a long time to get to that point...the journey was so painful, so gut wrenching..keep going to AlAnon..it is a life saver...You will figure out how you want to live your life...
-- Edited by Auntyaya on Monday 16th of April 2012 07:41:24 PM
Oh yes, the lying hurts..... but only until I realize that he is always going to lie. It is, for me, not a matter of separating him from the disease, because he is the one who is living in his skin. It is a matter of learning that I only have to deal with what is in front of me. If he tells me something I can believe it or not believe it, but that is totally my choice. I choose to go with my gut even if that means I have to believe he just lied to me. I remember early on in his sobriety in AA that his sponser said something to me and I said to him in response, "But remember, he always lies." That was 12 years ago. It was simply engrained in me to not believe him. It took a lot of lies over a lot of years to get me to that point. And they weren't even important things that he lied about. But it was enough that it tainted everything he said to me. I don't know if he lied at work or to other people. His relationship with them was not my business and I didn't want to know anyway.
Lying does destroy a relationship. It totally takes away trust.
It's not a particularly nice saying, but I've heard in meetings before if an A's mouth is moving, he/she is lying.
Yes, the lying is a part of the disease. No, it's not personal. Yes, it hurts like hell even if it's not personal.
There were certain behaviors I was willing to accept from my AH. and others I eventually decided I could not.
Lies I learned I'd be fine with: "I'll be home in an hour." (which, of course, never happened... it would be more like three, four.... five hours, etc.)
Lies I decided were unacceptable behavior: His promiscuous cheating on me. (Of which he always denied despite crystal clear evidence to the contrary.)
These are personal decisions, however. Everyone has their own personal threshold on what they will and will not accept. I actually even at one point put his promiscuous behavior under a morals microscope for me, remembering that in many cultures around the world, that sort of behavior is normal and openly accepted. So it wasn't a matter that my AH was a "bad" person because of it. But I did decide for myself that although it's accepted elsewhere, it just didn't fit well with me.
Hope you keep getting back to meetings. Thanks for sharing with us.
I recall feeling not just hurt, but devastated by his lying.
But much further down the road when I began to investigate my own beliefs surrounding his lying, I finally realized that I was taking his lying personally.
I know right now you might not be at a place to contemplate that. And that is alright. You'll get there if you take the focus of him and place it on you.
I know the confusion, hurt and fear that you most likely are feeling right now.
I'm sorry for that.
Al-Anon meetings helped me put things into perspective. Perhaps you'll give it a try.
In support, Gail
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You have to go through the darkness to truly know the light. Lama Surya Das
Resentment is like taking poison & waiting for the other person to die. Malachy McCourt
All of this sharing has helped me so much. oh my goodness, I can't begin to tell you how all of this perspective is soothing to the soul. Ha! Maybe you already know?
I want to clarify something though. That woman I spoke to in the meeting didn't put me off or seem callous. I was in awe of her perspective. I always thought lying was so hurtful, the worst thing someone could do to a marriage. And here this woman was, detached and waving her hand....not phased and happy. It was if she had some secret, some wisdom. She DOES! I can't get this out of my head. There really is a path to healing within all of this pain.
My therapist has been suggesting Al-anon for five years. I wish I would have gone sooner!
I don't know that anyone in al anon will shrug off this disease at all.
I do know its possible to detach.
Setting limits, setting boundaries, keeping them doesn't happen overnight.
I think the issue with me with an alcoholic is believing their lies taking it all so very personally when I discovered I'd been lied to.
Actually very very few people in my life ever told the truth to me. Maybe it was a sponsor, friend whoever. I know my parents lied day in day out.
Denial is really about lying and I'm not too sure that I can hold people accountable for denial anymore. If I want to take away someone's denial I had better be in there for the ride and I'm not up to that kind of ride anymore.
When I look back on my marriage and relationships they were actually destroyed before they even started by alcoholism they were built on lies, subtrefuge and denial so that was a pretty precarious state to begin with.
I do know I spent years "blaming" the ex A and he certainly did his share of acting out and drinking and using. The issue was how I dealt with it.
No one here is going to tell you to lie down and let anyone run all over you.
