Hi all...  I was reading through some older posts, and stumbled across a comment from "Diamond" - a very occasional - but very wise - person who posts on MIP every once in awhile...  This is what she had to say, with the whole "is alcohol a choice, is alcoholism a disease, how does it differ from other diseases", etc...

I also believe that nobody chooses to have the disease...but I do believe they choose whether or not to treat it.

For my money, this is a wonderful assessment..... when we are debating that issue of whether or not alcoholism is a disease, I am a firm believer that yes, it really IS, a disease.  Now, that being said, I also take issue with comments that tend to conclude that, if it is a disease, then it is the same situation as cancer or diabetes, etc., as we would never "blame" somebody for having one of THOSE diseases....

To me, the thing that separates alcoholism/addiction from other "diseases" is the element of choice involved, and I think Diamond hit the nail on the head......  There is no choice involved in whether or not a person is an alcoholic.... but there IS a choice as to whether or not they choose to treat it and/or recover from it.  (In that way, I compare it to diabetes, as it would be similar to a diabetic choosing NOT to take their insulin).

That's my musing for today, as this one gnaws away at me every once in awhile.

Take care

Tom

 

That's a great perspective, Tom. Thanks so much for sharing!

That's a great share and great perspective. And I think as a follow up, it's important to remember just how much courage and bravery it must take to try and get better. I am not an alcoholic, but I would imagine feeling like you are simply unable to stop is one of the most overwhelming, intimidating feelings one can have. And to stand up and try and fight that takes a lot of strength and courage. I am so proud of my wife for trying to get better.

Thanks Tom, this was great to read.

I vaguely remember that exchange Mark, and have stated what I believe here, from the bottom of my heart & experience.  There IS an element of choice, with respect to alcoholism, which separates it from most other diseases.  I'm definitely in agreement with you on this one.

T

I believe it is a disease, that tells the sufferer that nothing is really wrong with them.  They cannot distinguish the reality of it, while engaged in it.  It is a disease that is based predominately between the ears... in the world of dilusional thought processing.

The difference between someone who is crazy and someone who is insane is that the crazy person, knows something isn't right, might not know what but they know something in them is off the beam... The insane person doesn't think any thing is wrong... and simply wishes everyone would leave them alone.

Thus Step Two, is Step Two... 

Until they are granted a moment of clarity, meaning soundness of mind, which can be very fleeting for the alcoholic...

Expecting them to do something to treat it, is the same as asking the mentally abnormal to do something normal and respond to it as such.

Thus, Step Three is Step Three....

 

Thats my two cents worth...  

John

-- Edited by John on Saturday 17th of March 2012 02:14:00 AM

 

 

Aloha MIP Family and grateful to be at the door of discussion again where the real answers and solutions come from Experience with the chemical.

I am not the be all or end all of any discussion on alcoholism.  I was born in it...raised by females who were negatively affected by male drinkers and users and some who were alcoholic themselves.  Even at a young age I could sense there was something seriously wrong with my family and was too young to know what.  At nine I had my first alcoholic drink and the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual affect was the most profound event I would ever have.  It stays with me 60 years later even after I have survived alcoholic drinking and more.  In my family of origin I was raised as the "fixer"; the "helper" it was the most moral and upstanding endeavor.  My mother wanted me to be a priest.  I forewent the seminary and just practiced what I was taught.  I didn't need the robes...enablers get to wear whatever they like or can afford.  Eventually I slipped into fixing and drinking together and I didn't know anything about alcoholism at all.  People who drank too much were drunks and in my family you never called that person a drunk...it was disrespectful.

I know alcoholism as a disease from several view points thanks to my upbringing, Al-Anon, AA and College.  From my family it is something that was always done because alcohol was alway available and there were many justifications in place for it to happen and continue to happen (habit).  From Al-Anon I learned about "dis-ease" habitual drinking that takes away the comfortable way of living life.  From AA I learned about alcoholic drinking that shielded the drinker from feeling pain; mostly emotional and still physical and mental.  I learned that alcohol could alleviate physical pain by watching old westerns and war movies.  From college I learned that alcoholism is by far the most insideous disease on the face of the planet...that is it thousands of years old and has altered the human being such that it can be found within our DNA tests.  Combining all sources of information and my own experiences I have arrived at the believe that alcoholism is a disease of the mind, body, spirit and emotions all at the same time.  There is no part-time alcoholism.  It is called a compulsion of the mind and because I now know that to be true for me I understand that it always lurks...is present...available.  It is an allergy of the body...all of the body...every cell no matter where it is located in my body has been affect by the chemical...when I drink I don't think good or feel (emotions) good or act good (neurological, mental, emotional, often moral) and the like.  When I drink I will often do things I would not ever do when not drinking...I become someone different...at "dis-ease" with myself and others.  Drinking causes me to loose control and I never like to be out of control and as a result of loosing control I get angry at not having control and strive even harder to have control while still drinking and anger turns to rage and my "dis-ease" grows.  I say things I would never say to another person using language which upsets me when others use it and with the intention to hurt (protect myself because I am afraid) which intention I rarely have when not drinking.  Another definition of "dis-ease" is "INSANITY".   Because of the compulsion and the obsession to drink inspite of the negative experiences from drinking episodes, I most often lack the ability to choose when I will...it's a habit...I will drink most often than not and when I do I will over do it.  The consequence of that for me is several toxic shocks or drinking until alcohol erases my consciousness and leaves me only with sub-conscious abilities...beyond my control...a heart beat and breath...nothing else.  These are near-death experience while being under the influences and because of the anesthetic ability of alcohol involved no pain to me at all.  Alcoholism, if not arrested by total abstinence can and will result in death usually accompanied by insanity.  My physical make up is of a person who is chemically tolerant.  It takes alot of chemicals (and booze) in order for me to get the affect as everyone else at the party.  I have to be overdosed when I am prescribed chemicals so the doctors can see I'm getting an affect.  I don't do prescripts any longer.

I got to the doors of recovery when my HP finally was successful in getting me to sit still in an Al-Anon Family Groups face to face meeting.  HP didn't (as far as I was aware) work on my own drinking although I had stopped because my then alcoholic/addict wife pretty well destroyed all of our partying.  She got drunker faster and I had to baby sit the drunk.  I tried both drinking and enabling at the same time and mostly ended up enabling.  I marry the women I drink with with the exception of my last marriage.  I marry women who need to be fixed and I hang with guys who can't hold their liquor either so they can be protected.  Its all an extention of my family of origin which is an extention of family of origin.  I believe in the genetics of alcoholism...the altered human from birth.  That describes my family.  And so HP designed the journey and it was Al-Anon before (9 years) AA.  Why after 9 years of being alcohol free did I enter AA?  In Al-Anon I never investigated my own drinking.

My family told me I wasn't alcoholic...I took their uneducated word for it. To them I wasn't alcoholic also because they didn't want another family member knocking at the doors of AA...that creates a stigmata and they have enough trouble staying out of the meetings themselves.  After 9 years of being alcohol free my HP decided on the next project experience which is best after all the experience and education and professional work as a substance abuse and alcoholism counselor...Do my own alcoholism assessment which wasn't about the familys' drinking but about mine.  Three toxic shocks pretty well sealed it for the head nurse on the adult inpatient rehab unit and following her suggestion (she was an Al-Anon friend and didn't know it was my assessment) I went to my first AA meeting as an alcoholic needing support.

There is one characteristic of alcoholism which I have never experienced and never wish to...especially because of the Toxic Shock Syndrome; that is relapse.  This dis-ease never stops running.  Stop drinking and it counts the ones you would have had and didn't and keeps tabs of that number.  If you go back to drinking you don't go back to where you started but where you left off and the disease will attempt to do "catch up";  drink as many as you missed in as short of a time in order to reach the level you would have been at had you not quit.  I'm not super drunk.  I couldn't survive that no any of my victims.

My choice today is "not to" which I have created a habit of wrapped around both programs.  I wish not to drink and therefore I don't.  It is between my God and my Self.  In order to be of any use to anyone...call that enabling or not (thats not my choice either) I will not drink first and then I will ask HP to point me where HP wants me and then tell me what to do.  Is the drunk still with me?  Yes the drunk is here now...patient as hell and thinking of new tricks.  What does that drunk hate the most?...that I come and sit with you all and read and listen and learn how to stay sane, serene and sober.  Sometimes sober isn't being better. Some times its only being dry and then LOL that could be the Al-Anon side of my recovery huh?

Love you all...so please and at ease being a part of your recovery.  ((((hugs))))

 

from my own experience only .. when I was growing up, I was never given choices .. therefore, I never knew I had them .. I was in such an alcoholic fog through the effects of others dominating behaviors .. I never really thought to question it either until i came into the rooms of alanon face to face .. I also never knew I had the right to be as happy as others; i still struggle with this but it's a direct spiritual tie in to my past in that i was never given rights either .. i still have to work through more .. the other piece I'm remembering through experience is that prior to alanon, I didn't have much hope .. I had tried everything and nothing worked .. no amount of will power, self talk, perseverance, i couldn't even hear others .. so without hope whadda you do with something .. usually nothing; you just ignore it.. when i came to alanon, i began to recognise all 3 and through the hope of the program experience itself, I have become more willing to share, etc.. so do they have a choice ?? I believe definitely they do .. the question is how much of a choice do they have and like the onion levels, at what level are they aware of the choices .. awareness comes first, then comes acceptance .. then comes action .. we become aware only when we admit .. so I definitely believe alcoholism is a disease and i definitely believe the disease dominates the good will slash willingness to change, therefore .. i believe their choices are not free but that they are very limited .. i believe they've been there all along but like the many things that have been right in front of me, they can't see them ..

just my experience .. some great shares in here ..

Agree that it is a disease with an element of choice to treat and/ or recover. (a disease and a choice rather than a disease or a choice) Many diseases have treatment/ management options, so in a sense, there is a choice to be as healthy as possible.

Its hard to get treatment when you don't think there is anything wrong with you.

Linda said it perfectly.

Lest not forget they are sick. Sick people in the throws of the illness do not always have the ability to choose.

It is a fact the addict, because of how their brains are developed, from dna, believe their own lies. They absolutely believe them.

So if they believe they are not an addict, do not have a problem though they just drank and wrapped their car aroudn a tree, this denial is HUGE.

Of course we all have choices. That is just common sense. But to think a person who has a brain that is compromised to think they have a choice to me is irrational.

Also it depends on the person, the situation, how many markers they have in their dna from their past ancestors.

How many times have we heard they want to stop, try so hard but cannot do it. Most all relapse.

Really does it matter? They are sick and hurting, and we as non addicts can in no way put ourselves in their shoes.

I mean saying they have  a choice, does this give people the right to hate them more? Blame them?

Thank HP some do get to a place where they can work at recovery. I have often thanked Hp that I am not an addict.

Put this in the discussion, people who smoke have a choice too. But quitting smoking is said to be harder than kicking heroin. How easy is it to make the choice to quit?

Can you imagine waking up and your first thought is you need that which you are addicted to? ugh.

Many of us had great marriages, kids, were so in love, then our spouces relapsed. Do you honestly think a sane person would walk away from that?

A using A is insane. They cannot even keep a plant alive and some expect them to make a good choice.

hmmmm wish it were that easy. love yous, debilyn

The thought that active alcoholics have a choice to recover harms me because it doesn't produce any serenity in me. My recovery isn't about what anyone else is doing, choosing or not choosing.

When I believe a thought like that, I don't believe that they are powerless, rather that they DO have power on their own to get well.

Today, I know this, I can be right or I can be happy....

I can decide they do have a choice to seek recovery. It looks "right," most certainly. Problem is, they're not. And so that thought creates stress in me, it leads to the expectation that they SHOULD choose recovery and I get a big fat resentment because they are NOT choosing recovery.

Or, I can choose to be an observer... just watching things unfold as they are... I can see what I see... just observing. And I can let it be. Agreeing that this IS how it should be, because it is happening, it is what it is. It's the reality and I think I will just flow along peacefully with reality, stop rowing against the current....

It brings me a LOT more peace when I choose to believe that he has no choice. That he is powerless. They tell me, when the student is ready the teacher appears, but problem is, the student isn't ready.... the problem is

INSANE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THEY ARE INSANE. If it were some other disease that did not affect mental capacity, it might be easier for him to want to seek a cure. However, if I don't even believe I have a disease, why would I ever go looking for help??? lol

I accept their obsession and compulsion to drink, they have no choice in the matter, they are lost. Only God's grace has the POWER to bring them back, it's between them and their Higher power.

They are powerless just as I am powerless over my inability to just be at peace, just be an enlightened Being already!!! C'mon, why can't I just do that? Why do I have lingering character defects, why do I make those "choices?" Why do I have to wait for my a-HA! moments, why don't they just come already?!!

Because it's not a choice. It's a God thing.

I admit. I am powerless over alcohol, and my exAH is powerless over alcohol. Powerless.

I admit it because I have suffered enough. I choose to believe he has no choice. Why? Because he's not choosing it. I am at peace when I accept reality as it is.

-- Edited by glad lee on Saturday 17th of March 2012 09:30:12 AM

well as for the crazy person ahem .. i knew something was off lol but didn't know quite what .. am I crazy ?? maybe .. heheh .. but I think for me .. I believe crazy is a word the World uses because they can't understand as we can the effects of alcoholism and addiction in general .. the effects are so powerful that I doubt seriously there is one person on our planet that hasn't been effected by someone else's thinking or behavior .. remembering when we take our 4th step we look at both negative and positive effects .. there are always both if we're honest .. but there are different layers of insanity .. I also think the world gives all kinds of medical labels because again they have no other understanding to rely on .. it's like a categorized what do we do with this .. i dunno .. let's give it a label and file it .. of course that's strictly my own opinion .. & that's not at all to say there can't be something physically wrong with the balance in the brain, etc.. but I don't think it's that as much as they'd like us to believe it is and I don't think prescribing a pill is always the answer; it just sometimes gives them something to do when they don't have anything else to fall back on; others too; it's sort of like a dose of hope in a pill; i'd rather get it here .. again, strictly my opinion in that it isn't wrong; just overused and sometimes abused .. it's also my own understanding, however, as for years I thought I was just depressed .. clinically ? who knew .. all i knew was that i struggled with obssession, compulsion .. etc.. i thought i was a lost cause .. when i went to do my 4th & 5th step with my sponsor, i walked in with a notebook so thick and filled with literally years of everything I had been dragging around with me through the years .. when she saw the size of it, she said .. my god, no wonder you're so depressed lol .. my point is i knew from then on there was nothing wrong with me other than i had been effected by the disease of alcoholism (the elephant in the living room) not everyone knows it's there ..

I also know I have more choice now over my drinking than I did before because I have stopped long enough that the physical addiction is gone - as well as the obsession with it. The same is true for smoking cigarettes. I still am prone to wanting to avoid feelings and this general sort of "I wish I could just get messed up and check out for a while" feeling/craving but I have stopped thinking of alcohol as the solution to that since it has been so long since I drank. I still have an addictive personality that sneaks up on me in all sorts of unhealthy ways.

At this point, if I relapse, it is 90 percent by choice because I have been sober a while and taking the first drink would now be going against the momentum I have going. It would be a complete act of self-will and self-sabotage.

I think I responded to someone in a thread here stating that the main reason their qualifier relapsed because they wanted to. To a degree that is true and to a degree that is not. I have to remember that everyone's qualifiers are at different stages than me. After being in recovery for a while and being presented with the solution - It's way more a choice for me at this point than it is for someone who has never been in treatment and is totally in denial about their disease or even someone who just admits to having a problem but hasn't really been sober. Recovery really gave me a full range of choices back. Alchohol did have me prisoner. I think the same is true for alanon. The qualifier's disease has us locked into a pattern of responding where we no longer see choices. Alanon can also give you your freedom and choices back. But just like AA, it's a difficult soul-searching and spiritual journey that yields unanticipated but amazing results.

Mark

It's a hair splitting argument Glad Lee. I would venture to say that he hasn't made the choice because it hasn't dawned on him. A person can't really make a choice that they don't admit to having. For many to choose recovery takes some divine act of providence (as the literature says). It's a God thing and we are not going to understand it all fully with our human minds. I dont know why the choice appeared for me when it does not for others, but believe me - I thank GOD (like from the highest mountain top) that it did.

I love all the ESH in this post! Sending you all love and support whereever you may be on your journey!!!