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Hi My Dad got sober when I turned 8. Mum and Dad both went to Al Anon and AA respectively.
In my teenage years, I remember the arguments and fights about money and control.
I remember being forced to go to the food shopping with them and Dad telling Mum off.. yelling at her.. in the middle of the aisle. That brand was too expensive, what did she think this was??? Buy the cheap brand its just as good etc etc. What are you doing with my money.
Now... Mum had controlled the purse strings for the many many years of his drinking. Now he was sober.. he wanted to be involved and literally he had absolutely NOT one iota of an idea how much stuff cost (unless it was alcohol).
I remember the embaressment (being a teenager) and the shame that I felt when they did this publically. Mum saying she managed and brought up 5 kids and emigrated while he went bush to work.. all the while he was drinking money away.
Anyway.. my point... to the best of my knowledge, they sorted it by having a 'kitty'. Mum had her responsibilities to pay for things... my school stuff etc out of the kitty, and Dad has his stuff.. electricity bill, the cars etc.
OUt of that kitty they both took pocket money. Made me giggle my parents had pocket money!!!!! I think they took $20 each or something.. nowadays that woudl be about $100. That wsa for your own expenses. Buy a drink, go to lunch with a friend whatever. ONce the money was spent.. bad luck.
I can't say it was perfect cos often they would argue over what was kitty and what was pocket money.. for instance.. is buying me an icecream expenses for my upbringing from the kitty, or Mums pocket money... (when I was young it was NEVER Dads pocket money).
I am now 40 and my parents still have pocket money and a kitty. They are 80 and sometimes still argue over it. It is pretty cute though at times. I go to visit where they live (3000km away) and Dad will buy me an icecream from his pocket money hehehehehehe. Dad buys little gifts for Mum cos he has saved up his pocket money...we were all on holiday to Scotland a few years ago and Dad secretly had saved his pocket money to buy Mum a beautiful ring... its cute now .... He will say he woudl like an icecream or something and my Mum will say.. eye well you have your ain pocket money, don't be asking me (put that in a strong Scottish lilt if you can). Mum bought me a gift and I told her it was too expensive, and she just says "hod ya weeshed, its my ain money"
anyhooooooo...... (now that I hope you are smiling a little)
Dad wanted to make up for all that time he didn't know what was going on and prove that he could raise a family. He had to prove to himself that he was a 'family' man.
Control is such a large part of addiction. Control is a large part of co dependency too. I guess someone has to hand it over to the other. My Mum was nervous handing over some of those purse strings. She had to let him do it though. He felt he was the 'man of the house' and should know whats going on.....
What he didn't know was that Mum was still 'saving' the left over of the shopping money so she had an escape plan for us to get out of there. That is all over now though.
I guess you get my drift. I have no personal experience with this really. I refuse to argue about money. My husband woudln't know whats in our bank but I keep asking him to take over the budget and money but he doesn't want to.....
That is just my experience that I saw through my parents. Mum working her program and compromising with a non drinking alcoholic. PS - they ended up in marriage counselling once I left home.. no one else to use as a buffer hey.
NOt sure if this helps, but its all I got
-- Edited by Oksie on Tuesday 13th of March 2012 11:44:57 PM
Ok I've been in Alanon a long time but this issue is really getting to me. How do I deal with the daily controlling ism's and still maintain my own self worth?
My AH is obssessed with time and money. He is constantly asking me about what time I'm going here or there (which is a nagging to tell me that I should be getting ready or I should have left already) or what time I'll be back (meaning does he need to feel left out or abandoned)
He is constantly telling me about how short of money we are..... but he can spend what he likes and make decisions based on what he wants to do...... I don't have my own money now because ill health has stopped me being able to work. I have my own account but he is checking on it daily. He says he NEEDS to internet password to make sure the housekeeping goes in ok.
I feel like my ability to make decisions based to having some freedom is disappearing.
My AH has been sober and 12 stepping for over 5 years now.....and I know I should be eternally grateful....which I am
But how do I achieve my independance as a person and be able to achieve a level of self esteem that allows me to feel like a valid adult?
I hope this doesn't sound like self pity.
I've just been away visiting my brother for a month.....and have seen the difference. I love my husband but this is really hammering my feelings for him.....
I've spoken to my sponsor and my group.....and hear about the gratitude I need to concentrate on and the need to protect my own serenity.
This is really getting to me though and I don't know how to get past it.
I know I can't change him and I do accept him as he is
but his internal fear and anxiety is making my life unbearable. If its having a negative effect on my life I have to make some decisions around caring for myself?
He IS aware. I HAVE voiced this but all its done is hurt him.
I've been trying to give it time....and to let go and let God.....but I also promised myself years ago that I would not become a doormat again.
Has anyone any ESH around finding the balance around this sort of issue?
He does it all under the guise of being helpful? Before I went away he said there was no money (my brother paid for my trip) but while I was away he bought a load of new goods for the house....It was a lovely surprise...
In my 1st week back I went to the shop with my daughter. he met us there and at the pay desk leaned over my shoulder and put his hand IN my purse while he TOLD me which card I could use !!!!
It was embarrassing!!!! and made me feel like I was doing something wrong for buying anything.
He's since told me again that we're struggling and I'm not to use shops.
I need petrol....and I'm now worrying about whether I should put more in tomorrow or not? but I need to get to my meeting....so I will but will also feel so guilty about it....... I WANT to be able to shop for myself without guilt (he does food shopping)
I feel like I'm fading as a person again and beginning to hide beneath denial and covering up again.
Is it me? I keep asking myself...what is my part? I would work if I could and earn my own money and maybe feel more able to argue the issue.
Alanon isn't working for me with this issue right now.... I've been saying This Too will Pass....for too long....
So I'm writing to this forum in the hope that HP will speak through you
It's good he's stepping but i'm wondering to what level .. there's so many different; for example in AA which we are not, some are happy with sobriety and therefore never really attain a deep spiritual level of recovery .. Not saying that's bad, just that it's what it is .. This must all be so smothering for you considering the dependency with needing to rely on him making it hard to work the 7th tradition .. Of course in marriage there is balance because it is supposed to be a group ..
I've never had this exact experience but I'm going to try to share my experience of what's worked for me in the past by approaching it from a different perspective .. I remember going through something similar with my sponsor in sharing what he was doing .. my xa .. it was completely rational for me to be concerned but what my sponsor did was redirect my own shares to a deeper level in me from the perspective of .. how is this effecting me because it's the effects i need to turn over by sharing on what i'm feeling, etc .. in other words the situation is what it is but if this were me and my sponsor, she may remind me to share on a deeper level by trying to keep the focus on me and how my own illness is effecting me be that physical or mental because that's where i'm going to have the greatest spiritual awareness/awakening .. or rather spiritual solution .. if i reason on my illness, i may get new perspectives and insights on whether there's something hp can do for me in that department.
As for the leaning over and reaching in the purse, it's a strip of dignity .. the embarrassment would be normal as we feel others placing us in our position on that ladder below them .. the behaviors of control are the insanity we become effected by .. I might have to set a boundary to not go shopping with him again and explain why and how it made me feel and then follow through. Of course again, with the dependencies for money this wouldn't be easy. Keep sharing on this and other members will most likely have more esh to share with you .. For what it's worth, i don't know if any of this will help, but I wanted to respond for fellowship.. I know the answer for us all is to keep coming; the solutions will come with enough turning over .. hp is still a power greater than all the control we're surrounded by, etc.. trust is that process that grows little by little .. (( wish i could be more help, but then again it's always up to hp whether or not something that's said is helpful ))
Thank you All ES and H helps. Its good to know I'm not the only one. I found it interesting to hear that marriage is a group and could be run like a group.
Without taking inventory my husband will only attend certain meetings because he's critical over how others are run. He says he's not comfortable. Plus I have been very guilty of taking on too many roles and then feeling overwhelmed.
I'm not coping well with my illness. I really see the importance of tradition 7. I had to give up my independance while my husband was still drinking. That situation lead to us to being seperated. I often wonder whether my illness is completely down to the stress of living with an alcoholic. (obviously I'm not really blaming him) Stress definately makes it worse. So I feel like I'm in a catch 22 situation. If a had less stress maybe I'd be fit enough to work.....and have my independance back....but trying to work creates more stress and I can't keep it going....leading to a another drop in self esteem.
Oksie. My daughter (who is 24) has been witnessing this carry on even though I am trying to keep it to myself. She also tells me how her Dad tells her about how much stress I create for him. I hate the fact that my kids are affected and continue to be affected despite best efforts to show them how much we've been trying to recover. My eldest son is still REALLY angry and prefers to stay out of it. My middle son returned to where we used to live because the geographicals were too much for him. My daughter now has a lovely little boy herself and I really don't want all this to affect him too.
I know I can't FIX this... Thats old behaviour..... I really don't think years of Alanon has allowed me to now what changes are real and what is still trying to fix.
It sounds to me like you are kind of sitting at the beginning of step 3 with all this.
Sometimes doing the same thing expecting different results is an easy place to stay. It also leads to a lot of different frustrations and resentments. I find when I keep hitting the same wall over and over then I need to figure out how do I shake myself up and out of what's going on. Turning left is a good idea, trying something with the large support of people who love me and care for me, it doesn't have to be big either. Sometimes it's just doing something very little that scares the crud out of me and yet when I do it .. the ceiling doesn't cave in, the world doesn't stop turning and things keep moving forward just like they had done the day before and the day I do it. I don't have to worry about tomorrow, because the world is going to get there with or without my worry. It's a lot less stressful to not have that weighing me down.
You are being really hard on yourself at the moment or that's the feeling I got from reading your posts. Step 3 really giving it over and not taking it back for me is I have to have honesty, be completely open minded, and have a willingness to take action. I can think about it all I want to until I take action and actually give it to HP then all I do is spin my wheels.
Hugs P :)
PS - don't we all have much to learn :)
__________________
Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
beginning step 3 Pushka. Thanks for that observation.
i've strugglied to get my head round that comment....but yes I think maybe it is step 3 issue. Turning my will and my life over To God.
My issue has been that I seem to be constantly turning over the issues on a daily basis but the issues don't change. I get left with ....doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results !!! I know that insanity.
I've been to a meeting tonight and heard a story about someone panicking because she had reversed into a parking space and put her hand break on. So she KNEW she wasn't moving. but a car next to her began to move forward leaving her with the feeling that she was rolling backwards.
I know that feeling lol I've experienced it. Its fleeting and eventually our eyes begin to percieve reality. We begin to know that we are safe and that the world is moving around us.....and we have no control over it. We just have to wait till we begin to recognise our own safety?
That I CAN feel safe .... even when the world around me is creating that feeling of panic within me...?
So maybe I have to work on that perception?
Maybe its for my AH to recognise HIS behaviour and to own it. And not for me to point it out?
I'm not here to teach..... but I'm still unsure of how to find a way to percieve my own safety? And not to get stuck seeing the loss of dygnity and self worth in the face of his behaviour.
How do I rise above it?
I'm think I'm going to maybe visualise my hand brake? Its not me who is panicking and sitting in fear..... I'm seeing it but my eyes are seeing HIS panic and fear.
Can I detach from it and know that I don't have to own it?
Its not real just my perception?
I'm not doing anything wrong.... I'm just being TOLD I'm doing wrong
My guilt is not appropriate?
I haven't got this sorted yet but its amazing what is said at meetings on a completely different subject LOL. I think by voicing this to you, HP is sending messsages through you AND my own group. Clever chappy isn't he/she/it LOL
Hi f2f, Your hubby's sobriety is for him. You can feel grateful for it, but it is not for you. It is for him Whether he wants to be a better person BECAUSE of his sobriety is a completely different issue You have to live for you because you are all you have.
Step 3 is all about Letting Go And Letting God.... and about a hundred different issues around that. When you trust that your HP has your back and nothing is going to happen that the two of you can't handle, then you can let go of the hubby and all the things he is doing that are causing the anxiety in you. I think you are on the right track Your guilt is not appropriate? Have you done anything to be guilty for? That would be step 4. You can examine yourself and put all your attention on that. What person do you want to be and what is standing in your way?
It sounds like your finances are a question for you. Maybe if you confront him in a calm way and ask about the finances. Tell him that you notice that there is money for some of the things that he thinks are important while you can't even buy petrol for your car? You don't want to be isolated. Let him know that you understand his fear, but you have to be part of the decisions for the money. That is part of being married. If all that fails, then maybe you have to get some of your funds independant from him. Maybe finding a small job that you can do without letting your anxiety stop you is just what you need to do. Start small. Maybe it is getting $10 and putting half of it away for a rainy day and starting your own savings account.
Take care of yourself. You are the most important person for you.
is.Thanks for your suggestions maryjane. I have tried all you have suggested. I have an illness that is stopping me from working. I would love to work and become financially independant. I tried it a while back.... and besides making me very ill forcing me to stop, my AH absorbed my earnings even before I have earned them and controlled them in the same say. The difference was I felt more able to say no. He felt at that time that he had supported me for so long he had a say....
I know it will always be an ISM. I have talked to him about how it makes me feel. He says ....hes an alcoholic and working on it....
Taking care of me is exactly what I'm finding difficult and the longer this goes on the more the balance of 'power' is leaning towards him
I don't know how to redress this. I can voice it....but alanon says only to voice it once....he's not deaf I can ignore it.....but alanon says not to sit in denial
I can hand it over..... but HP has before given me more than I could handle.... ......but I know that if I take it on myself to fix it it gets worse I can share it......which so far is proving to be the most effective too I can choose to leave.... I did that once and was drawn back because we have a marriage and kids I don't believe its ok to leave a marriage because of illness. (in sobriety) Plus I am ill too and he has things to put up with too
The one thing I do know is that I am powerless over doing anything about it. All I can do is change my attitude towards it That I need reminding about constantly I believe step 2 is about sharing it which is what I'm doing now Letting go and step 3 is proving to be difficult because of the constant negative impact on my life..... Step 4 is about looking at my part......How do I deal with that with the realisation that this isn't my guilt... I don't have to own it.
This is where I'm getting stuck? I hope this makes sense and thank you for allowing me to work through all this will you
Just as a thought... could the step 4 part of it be your feeling of 'loss of control', and resentment of his control over that aspect of your life? Could some of it resentment/grief toward your illness that has made you unable to contribute as much as you would like.
It appears this is not going to change. Could you do a Step One? You are powerless over (his current control of money) and your life has become unmanageable. Once you are powerless over it... does that mean you understand you are not able to change it? does that then mean the only thing you can change is your reaction to it? have you tried 'opposite action'?
You have probably done this already and if so, I apologise for rehashing old stuff.
You said he does it under the guise of being helpful. I can't quite remember (I am still fairly new to this) but isn't there somethin in Al Anon about how we can be known to manipulate the alcoholic, and say and do things, under the guise of help? That has come full circle and he is doing it to you.
I also wonder, have you set your boundaries at the time of the action. LIke with a child, the 'punishment' must be timely. You probalby have but for an example of what I am thinking ... when he puts his hand in your purse .. you say at that exact time "(name) I find that unacceptable, please do not do that". "(name), I am getting fuel tomorrow because I am going to my Al Anon meeting" then he will say we can't afford that etc "I find those restrictions unacceptable"
My interpretation of saying things only once doesn't mean they are only ever said the once in the history of the relationship. I interpret that to mean that at the appropriate opportunity, I say what I have to say, and I say it once. I mean what I say, I say what I mean, and I do not say it mean. I don't make a time to sit and have that long D and M conversation several times. When he does something unacceptable, I tell him I find that unacceptable. The next time, I tell him I find that unacceptable. I do not enter the argument about it and try to push my point. I reiterate it at the opportunity and make it relevant to the situation that is current.
I am guessing you have done this.... if not.. hope I have helped in my interpretation of the Al Anon principles as you mentioned them. As I said, I am newish so I may have it all wrong.
Hi Oksie I don't think you're wrong at all.... lol A couple of things you've said have made me think
I am resentful over my illness and my lack of ability stay independant. I feel unable to live up to tradition 7 Not sure how to deal with that.... !
trying opposite action....... you maybe new but that is a new one on me.... I realise doing the same thing and expecting different results is insane.... but how do you get different result from someone elses behaviour without wanting change from that person. I am the only person I can change but I can't change this illness and become the idependant person I want to be. Failing another seperation I'm at a loss.
Under the guise of helping....has come a full circle. This is an interesting statement. I do think BOTH of us are quite co dependant. He started his recovery in a CODA room.
I do try to voice my boundaries at the time....but in public places this can be confrontational......and I'm not prepared to argue all the time any more. This is one way I have changed......but does he think he can get away with more because I won't join in with his game?
I do tell him his behaviour is unacceptable....and most of the time he agrees.....but that doesn't mean it gets easier
Thanks for all you input....It really is helping.
I feel like I'm I'm saying yes but........ and being obstructuve
f2f
-- Edited by f2fmember on Friday 16th of March 2012 07:05:23 PM
Hi Well I've had an interesting conversation with my huusband. He asked about my lack of energy (my illness) and I feel HP put words into my mouth.
I managed to talk to him clearly about how I'm feeling right now.
I reminded him that he began his journey in CoDa.
He's said that he's read his big book from cover to cover 3 times recently plus listening to it on CD in the car....
He knows somethings wrong but doesn't know what.
We've talked about his insecurities and mine....
He did begin to become defensive, but I firmly told him that this was not about him.... it was about my inability to cope with how it is ... and that being on a pedistal was not acceptable. I needed to be allowed to live a normal life without condescention or patronisation.
And he's decided to read Melody Beattie books again.
His sudden clarity around this can only have come from HP.
We've had a good Mothers day (its been mothers day today in the UK) and celebrated my daughters new mother-hood.
There has been no angst or heavy atmosphere.
I'm often not quite sure how this program works but work it does.
I feel that by sharing I was accepting step 1 and taking part in step 2 and 3
Living one day at a time.... Today has been a good one.
