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I know the answer to this, although I struggle with the concept sometimes and I'm sure others do as well. My wife has done some horrible things in the last 2 years--to me, to herself, and to a lesser extent, to our children. I won't list them here, I'm sure it's consistent with what all of you experience.
My wife suffers from 2 incurable diseases--depression and alcoholism. These actions are a direct result of these diseases. Yet in those moments of weakness, I can't help but admit that I find myself wondering "maybe she really just is a bad person".
I know she isn't. I remember the person she was when she met, so kind and so willing to give and to help. But as she progresses in her recovery, there is the assumption on my part that when she gets "well", the behavior will improve. I guess at some point you have to look and ask "is this behavior attributable to the disease, or is that not an excuse anymore".
She's not well, so there's no point in wondering that now. Thanks for letting me share.
Thanks for sharing. You said what I am thinking about my AH: where does the disease end and the person begin? Is there enough of the person I remember left? Or has that person been destroyed by alcoholism and all that is left is this zombie-like creature who attempts to eat my brains (and heart) on a daily basis?
Like you said, I remember the kind, helpful person who used to inhabit my AH's body. The difference is that my AH is not in recovery. So, I don't know what still remains of the person I knew.
I was looking at some old pictures yesterday. They were from about 20 years ago--right around the time AH and I got married. He was really smiling. He looked happy. We had the whole world and a lifetime ahead of us. Now... he looks much different.
I posted earlier about the open speaker that was there last night, a RA. Something they went back to that even though they weren't drinking and hadn't had a drink since the sobriety date they still felt horrible. They weren't drinking, however they couldn't get up off the couch to make a sandwich, even if that was the only activity planned for the day. They couldn't figure out the emotional stuff that went with the alcoholism. After all of they years they have been recovered far longer than they drank although it started very early on.
It wasn't until a couple of years in that place that they got how powerless they really were over alcoholism that it is a disease of the mind, body and spirit. Until they really embraced that they were powerless over alcohol that they really got what it meant to turn themselves over to the care of HP. It was that the RA was split in two the only thing they addressed was the alcoholism, they neglected to address the emotional/spiritual side. We are talking someone who worked a program for 7 years before having this strike them as the truth for them.
The other thing I liked about the message which is the same as we receive here no one got here over night and it's going to take time to get better. It's going to take time to knit two sides of a person into one.
Hugs .. I am struggling with the idea that this could be what I'm left to deal with is the after affects of my Q trying to weave two halves into a whole without addressing the emotional side of things. I will say in my humble opinion that it IS part of the disease of addiction. Learning that anything else is better than feeling and then having to feel again without numbing out I'm sure it's a very overwhelming experience. Well, I know it is .. as I address my issues and how I have chosen to hide from them.
Hugs again, thank you so much for this share it reminds me that A's are people too, there is just not one side to them any more than there is one side to me.
P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
Lots of us struggle with these kinds of questions. The Jekyll/Hyde thing is very hard to reconcile. As I've asked myself many times about my AH, how can someone who was so kind and gentle for years morph into a deranged, nasty nut? I recently told my AH, who is several months sober, that he lost part of his humanity. I did this only because it was an appropriate time to say it and he was ready to hear it. I have read a lot about the brain damage associated with heavy drinking and it can take years of continuous sobriety to restore, if ever. Then comes the emotional and spiritual damage as well. I do think that even if my AH stays sober he won't be the same person he was when we met. I do think there are people who suffer from personality disorders aside from their drinking. But the drinking makes it much worse. I've also seen people who've been in recovery for many years and seem to be doing very well. Then again there are people who remain physically sober but remain insufferable "dry drunks" the rest of their lives. A good question, and certainly food for thought. Wishing you support, nyc
It is a disease and when the person stops using alcohol to numb the feelings the "isms "become more pronounced. Working a program helps.
Most importantly I found that working my program helped me stay sane. I also was able to decide if I could forgive and continue in the relationship. Each member must search their heart for that answer.
You are doing well The meetings, sponsor and the Steps will help to clear off the pain of the past unforgivable actions and then you will obtain the clarity you need to respond in a way that enriches your spirit and life
I think.... that addiction blurs the answer to this question...
One of my favorite old sayings is:
"It is neither good, nor bad... it simply IS"
What I liked about this one is that it kept me focussed on the "whats", which are real..... and focussed less on the "whys".... My wise old sponsor used to remind me (over and over again) "Tom, ask yourself a simple question - if you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything??"
Great post
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
I love the replies you've gotten so far. I just wanted to add my opinion. I think addiction is most definitely evil. The Bible says A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. And if you are a slave to alcohol, you can't be living your life for God, that's for sure. When my husband is having horrible, alcohol fueled behavior, I feel like I am up against an evil force, definetely.
Early sobriety is difficult for both partners , your wife is filled with shame and guilt and until she learns to forgive herself she will continue to struggle , as we all know looking at our own behavior is not easy and it is painful for the alcoholic * especially women * I believe it is 10 times worse but there is nothing we can do about that either- this is her trip and allowing her to do it her way is a gift , but that dosent mean we have to be abused in the name of thier recovery, speak up share whats on your mind and in your heart and remember nothing we say or do will cause another to drink we simply are not that powerful . Say what you mean , mean what you say , but dont be mean when you say it . and always check out your motives before doing anything . Knowing when to speak up or when to shut up was a problem for me but I was told that in most cases by my silence my husb would assume that what he was doing was ok with me ..ugh
Great thread and responses Usetobe...caused me to remember my growing up journey in Al-Anon where I learned about the "dis-ease" and then the disease of alcoholism. "Dis-ease included such psycological problems as depression" and "Disease included such chemical lessons that alcohol was a chemical depressant" So when was it organic and when was it induced? I decided not to try rocket science on it and just went for empathy, compassion and support cause depression in any form sucks...I know!!
I also learned about the two women I was married to and lived with...."My" wife and "My" alcoholic so that I could separate the two when it was necessary. "My alcoholic" did some obviously evil stuff when under the influence and....being under the influence didn't always mean she was boozed up...she could have been dry and going thru cravings and if you really want to meet the monster...face it off during cravings.
Since you exposed a look back over the past 2 years might I suggest doing some reading and chairing a meeting on the problem of resentments...and blame...and control...and judgement...those kinds of things. I've been where you are at now or what you talk about now and those were my lessons. I also did lots of lessons on "My own addiction...which was her and looking toward her to supply my own peace of mind and serenity." That is and was great learning and experience on letting others go and not holding them hostage for my happiness. Absolutely no one other than myself is qualified or responsible for my happiness...not even my HP. Happiness is an inside job...a self choice...I turn it on and I can turn it off and each time I do it's because I do...choice and action.
One measurement I was exposed to in Al-Anon was the "How long has she been drinking as opposed to how long has she been dry"? My alcoholic/addicts periods of being dry were always shorter than the total time she had drank so there was always the "process" and never the "perfection or the expectation of "the" miracle". The miracle was when she put her self into recovery without me being around and then starting off with a bag over her head for several weeks continuously telling her program manager that "if she didn't allow herself to be blindly led she would die a drunk". Now that's one I'd never expect and on the other hand she and her choice is my metaphor for determination and humility.
Go Figure!!
Stay within your own back yard friend and keep your HP back there with you.
I wanted to chime in here and add just what my experience is looking back on my own alcoholism and how it affected me. Do I think I used to be a bad person? Maybe. Did I know better than to act the way I did? Not always but sometimes I did. Did I use alcohol to not even care how I acted and to not grow up and not accept the world as it truly is as well as the need to be a responsible grown up and participate in life? YES!
In recovery we spend so much time challenging ourselves to change. The triangle in the AA symbol stands for delta which literally means change. The whole point of steps 4 through 9 is to come to terms with our shortcomings or character defects. In essense, that means YES, we were bad people who did bad things and we have to make ammends for them. This is a tough process and a huge reason why people don't stay sober. Who wants to take ownership over having acted like that? Well, I can tell you that at some point it just became crystal clear to me that this is what I had to do if I didn't want to be miserable all the time and to be a slave to both alcohol and depression. I pray that your wife gets more clarity and starts working a better program (I know this alanon is about you, but I tend to identify with the alcholics often for obvious reasons).
Anyhow, I used to play victim using depression and alcohol as props... Some people bought that act and for that I am truly sorry. In some ways I was a bad person. More so, like your wife, I was a sick person but that is no excuse for the things I did and the way I acted. This is why the steps set me free from myself and my past. I try my best to change, to make ammends and to be responsible. I don't embrace sickness, excuses, and victimhood like I once did.
Yes, Mark, makes a lot of sense and very useful and helpful. And thanks to everyone else too. As always, your thoughts and wisdom really is helpful to keep me in a good place (and in my own backyard, as Jerry says).
