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I'm codependant. My spouse of 2 yrs and 54 yrs old is divorcing me due to an irrational belief--a delusion that I was/am stalking her. She is menopausal, has depression, alcohol dependence, thinks now that we married too soon after her suicide attempt and sobriety. Her family used to like me and love me. Her friends, too. My family can't understand her delusions and projections. I need a regular sponsor (male) in St. Paul MN who can relate to this. There is also sexual play/abuse by a 12 yo girl when she was 8. Lasted for one summer vacation. Could a codependent couples group ever work for divorcing couples? She found me on Match.com and was the love of my life until she went crazy. Then I did. She's not in alanon, but AA. Can anyone relate? We were married for a little over one good year, and had a good 9 mos courtship.
Rematch--
-- Edited by Rematch-- on Thursday 8th of December 2011 07:05:58 AM
oh....couldnt get to reply for ages...there is a long big gap. yes i can relate... not through a partner...but my mums mental health has not ben good in the past- so i can relate to imagined things that you have supposedly done or are. you arent going crazy OK? its not you- you arent stalking....its her. she needs some space to get well, she is way to sick to be able to cope with the demands of a relatinship...she will get back n track- also if you detach she wont be able to blame you and she will realise that her mental health is still bad and she m ight then go and seek help- once she cant find any more scape goats.
you are not a stalker but a normal caring person who needs to recover from the mayhem of someones mental health which has gone totally haywire...yes I can relate. back when my mum was like it- it made be disturbed and ill myself.
ive also thought- what MAY be happening- is that she is totally freaked out by her worsening mental health..and to explain it away she is blaming you for it- and plucking things from the air to grab hold of...as this surely cant be her? but im afriad it is... if i were you- i would detach right the hell away...and when ive done this in the past- its been the only thing that has got my mum able to get better again. its very sad detaching from someone as you want to help them- and the worse they get- the more you want to help- but it does them no good- as its their illness and they wont get better until they accept that they are not right and its THEM. not their husband. daughter or boss at work...or ex husband who doesnt send enough mainentance payments....
It's so hard to detach by divorcing when such extreme and unfair demands are made. She is active in AA.... I don't see her doing her program. I don't want to tell her that, though. I could do this easier (divorce) if it seemed fair while divorce seems inevitable with hope for her to regain her perspective. She has never made it to two good years with someone. I fear I will become an always abandoned example of her feminine power over a masculine, assertive archetype if I cave in to her harmfully protective financial demands. Yet I would not care if only it would give her the distance to see I really am safe and meant it when I said I would protect her (and her assets). We both stand to lose assets with me selling her the house, and from us having sold mine from before the marriage, after we married. I grieve and fear her abandonment. I want to do the divorce in line with step 9, but fear I am the only one wanting this. I'd like to do real amends rather than the extreme over-apologizing and self-searching I spewed at the onset.
Rematch--
-- Edited by Rematch-- on Thursday 8th of December 2011 07:20:54 AM
cripes...do you have to divorce? i was thinking in terms of living seperate lives for a while- spending time on your own- getting into your man cave - divorce is a massive step.
she knows you are safe...shes just looking for something to lash out and blame and its always the nearest and dearest that get it. i know what you mean about her being destined to always be on her own...its a very sad thing watching someone be lonely through their own behaviour- and when they lash out at those nearest and dearest to them.
no shs not wrking her program- not at all- and she needs to get herself back into the program ASAP...get off to AA and start getting engaged with it again. if you detach this might teach her- she has to do it- otherwise she will loose you.
you will be both be worse off if you divorce- fnancial wise- i dont think there is any need to rush or hurry into a anything- take the time to do whats right for you both...but tis crazy business of calling you a stalker and all that- thats got to stop- its not respectful to you- its hurting your feelings and its very self destructive.
keep in touch with us on the board- im on here daily...for some reason...lol
i know its hard- but please try not to take her insults and accusations seriously- she doesnt mean it- not deep down. it is a sickness. my mum has called me all sorts of names in the past and done all sorts of things...but she wouldnt hesitate to throw herself under a moving speed train if it were to save my life...thats mental illness for you...discrepancies...dichotomies...anomolies........im just trying to find another intelligent sounding word..it sounds good. and i sound clever.
You are speaking and using terms like a neofreudian psychologist. In my own experience, others see that knowledge as very threatening and they do think you are pulling ninja mind tricks on them when really you are just speaking and using terms that have become part of your vernacular through years of work and study. Additionally, having a keen understanding of psychology makes it doubly frustrating when people who are close to you do not act as you have "assessed." Yes, your diagnostic impression might be correct, but when you are that close to the situation, you might as well throw your assessment out the window because it is only going to frustrate you more and take your attention away from what you can control versus what you can't.
oh and the extreme and unfair demands....that sounds familiar too- another way of hurting you and its excessive demands....i dont know where this comes from...but my mum took all of my step dads wages...ALL OF IT...every penny, for many years. and now they are divorced...she is STILL doing it!! this sickness is a very selfish one...but that improves i think once they start to get a handle on their menal health. my mu has improved a lot- shes gone from not being able to stop herself from attacking me...to being generous and thughful....i know i bet you are falling off your chair right now!
Its true what Mark says....there is no figuring it out and no one defining thing that makes them better. i do know that AA is essntial to get them back on track- this is one certainty that i know...it may be that the security of it...the grounding the other members gives them...the routine. but this sickness.....what actually it is, i agree...there is no fathoming it. i do know that stress can really aggrevate it...anything to do with money worries seems to set my mum off like nobody's business.
Other member's will come along and give more sound alanon feedback, but my intuition tells me she had/has a codependent streak even larger than yours and being part of AA is very comforting and gives a sense of belonging like never before. It is not a cult, but some people respond to it like it is. Hence, she now may be getting all her needs met through AA and that is a whole nother dynamic to consider. It sucks for you, but in a global sense, it's a bit healthier for her because at least she isn't using people and alcohol to fill that void.
Wow. Thank you, both. It's a great relief to hear from people who know mental illness and codependency. She was struggling with her program when I got out of her way and left the house (and my things!). She was changing sponsors: parted ways with her original sponsor, then was fired by an ambivalent one she SO respected---who kept trying to redirect her to the program rather than to the marriage or to expecting "therapy" with the sponsor. She prefers an "AA" group that allowed cross talk and lots of discussion and was comprised of mostly men.... I know we had a connection with our higher power, though. We prayed together, loved our church.... Projecting her own stuff on me makes sense, though...her daughter asked her to sign a sort of contract or agreement not to show up at her place of work 'cuz it felt to the daughter like my wife was stalking her. 3 days later, it's the label she has for me! I didn't ask her to tell me as much as she did about herself and her relationship patterns--more than she had told anyone. She seemed to both want to go on and on, and complain I had listened so well and asked furthering questions to really understand. Thank you.
I'm working on a letter to her Dr. for a once and for all offer of our relationship history and my concerns about her health and well-being. I expect no reply but will offer to be available if she (Dr.) wants me to say more. Just a half-page e-mail, with good intentions.
Are you making it ti Al-anon meetings for yourself and working on your own recovery program? I always think thats the best route. Sending you love and support!
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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
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" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
Yes, thanks. It's tremendous. Back up to twice per week. For the part that's more than her alcohol dependence and my codependence, though, it's the delusional disorder in the early stages which has a 33-50% full remission potential, so I quit yesterday living in the hope and prayer that things may get better on their own, or that the Dr. would detect the non-bizzare delusion of me stalking. The Dr. treats her for depression and anxiety. Has for a couple years. I sent my much edited letter to the Dr. as a once and for all release and turnover to HP of medical profession and my God. Now I get to really grieve her loss from my life. I asked the Dr. to be discreet if she could. The risk is me seeming like engaging in actual stalking behavior. Now, even that is out of my control. Very sad time for me. Crying a lot. Mad at the illness(es). Better with my HP than last week.
You are right. My attention has again drifted from what I can control. But now that I got the Dr. an e-mail, I feel over that, and in real grief without hope of her healing or of reunification. That's just too bad, tho. I wasn't going to sit back and let it get missed with no hope of a happy life without me. This way she may hate and fear me more but not become so severely ill for her family and her.
Rematch
-- Edited by Rematch-- on Monday 12th of December 2011 01:05:52 AM
My healing for me worked better when I put the focus on me. It didn't matter was happening around me what someone was saying or not saying, it mattered that "I" get healthy. Anytime I spend to much energy focusing on what I think someone else should or shouldn't be doing I'm trying to control. So personally and this is my opinion, .. I don't think it matters what your spouse is doing or saying at this point. It's more important that YOU get a sponsor ANY sponsor you like what they have to say and share and focus on yourself. You will find that the emotional feelings probably are pretty much the same.
Yes .. what's going on really sucks and it's sad she's going down this road however it is said the spouse of an addict is far easier to spot than the addict. It hurts like crazy to watch someone you care about go up in flames and I am truly sorry for your pain. If she's having these issues believe me unless SHE is acting out if the police show up it's not going to be her they are looking at. There is a great speaker on podcast and there is her story about how the neighbors always came out when SHE came out of the house (they never came out when her spouse had been drinking ). At one point she's laying behind her spouses "whiskey truck" (as she called it), to keep her spouse from leaving. There is a whole group of people and she's on the ground trying to keep her A from leaving the driveway (literally laying behind on the ground behind the truck). All of the neighbors are there and she's telling them "don't you have your own lives go away." All this being done while she's laying behind the truck. Now as all this drama is going on the focus and attention is on her not her A. Well, a cab pulls up and her spouse leaves. She is left feeling humiliated (really by her behavior) at the time though she felt it was her A's fault, he "won" because he left anyway, and she was the star of her own show. Who looked like the crazy person or the sick person in this situation? Her or her A? If I saw someone laying behind a running truck, yelling at me to go back in my house, I would be thinking WOW .. this is what goes on outside of this house what the hell goes on inside?? That guy needs to leave that crazy person! Right or wrong on my part that's not the issue, the issue is that kind of behavior doesn't work to keep someone from destroying themselves they are going to find a way.
The face to face meetings kept me from "laying behind the truck in the driveway" not my story however I did other things that I'm sure other people thought were nuts. That's because "I" was out of control, thinking I was "helping" a situation that was not my place to pull any strings. I can relate to watching a situation spiral and feeling completely helpless. It was the glue of the alanon people (including my sponsor) and their stories as well as just having a life that kept me from falling to pieces and now I'm in a place where I can see where I need to put the places back. Instead of focusing outward and allowing my emotions/co dependency to control me, I'm focusing on what I can control. Which I can control my reactions to my emotions and just feel them, allowing them to pass, instead of trying to pretend they aren't happening by focusing outward.
My sponsor hasn't experienced the same situation, however they have the same feelings I have had, that's for me what makes a great relationship with a sponsor as well as keeping the focus on me. I didn't cause anyone's addiction, I sure as heck won't control it, and I absolutely won't cure it. That is the first 3 steps paraphrased.
I wish healing and peace for both you and your spouse and I hope you will take what you like out of the stories that are offered, most of all I truly hope you will find an alanon meeting and sponsor and find your way out of your pain. It's a hard place to live, to be in pain like that. The issue is not what your spouse is or isn't doing, you have stated it numerous times it is about you and your own issues and addressing those. There are some great reads out there by Melody Beattie, Co Dependency No More is one that comes to mind.
Sometimes it's important to listen to our A's when they make statements because as crazy as it may sound to us they are trying to tell us something such as LISTEN TO ME I NEED SPACE. More importantly we need to honor those feelings they have and give them what they ask for. Well that's what I have found in my own situation.
Hugs, in support P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
I'm going to 2 mtgs per week and will go to a first step meeting again (first 3 steps) on Saturday. These are steps I have not revisited in a meeting since sending the Dr. the important email.
I have become more detached and free since sending the email. I felt initial grief and out of control, and so sad. Now feeling better.
I will have a hard time trusting that a sponsor can relate to my feelings that I am dealing with my AW with D(elusions). It really is more than denial about a desease with no cure. Delusional disorder can have a 33-50% full remission when treated early. Dry drunk is even different, I think. She has not been abusing alcohol....
The powerlessness I felt while under her control and not in control of anything about us, was like floating in the open ocean.
I'm in a group for loved ones of people with their first episode of psychosis, too. I have a therapist and have 3 appts. in Jan., too.
Also was just recommended the alanon book Transforming Loss into Change or something similar. I like reading Melodie Beattie. Am embarrased I felt I had to send the email as my way to let go and let HP's, but for imperfect me, it was a matter of choosing from two actions that would do some harm. Inaction for 6 mos was making me crazy and leaving her deluded. My action will have it's costs to me, probably, but maybe just financial in the divorce settlement.
There are things I wonder about with steps 8 and 9--Is her perception that I scared her so badly, enough to make it a wrong? And if a wrong, or harming, is it harm for which my program leads me to consider making direct amends without likely or dicey chances of wronging her further? I ache that she was so scared. I don't want to take responsibility for scaring her when it was her own feeling upon bumping into me or discovering me at the library.
Have people here found their sponsors to be able to help them more easily discern this aspect of steps 8 and 9--perceived harm?
First off don't beat yourself up about the email it's in the past my point was only to point out that we try and control people, places or things it doesn't go well for us even with the best of intension we can harm much more. If that's what you needed to do to let go then doing it with the expectation of not having any kind of response then it just is what it is and I'm not asking you don't need to justify your actions.
Your sponsor will be able to guide you when you get to those steps. The 1st step admitting we are powerless over "fill in the blank", I find it has been important to work through the steps with a sponsor and work them top to bottom vs skipping around. Your sponsor will guide you and help you figure out and disern what is going to be harm and help. I think you may find out that a sponsor will have more to offer than just what you have to focus on, all you can do is keep an open mind. What I am dealing with, my past, present and future are all tied together, .. until I stop putting focus where it doesn't belong which is on everyone else past and present I am stalled in my healing. I hear a lot of "her" in your posts and I'm challenging you not to take responsibility for 100% of things that are not your part, only to own your part in the dysfunction of your relationship. Maybe there was nothing, only you can decide that, however from your posts her perceptions are very real to her.
I don't do well when I rationalize with an irrational person and all I can do is continue to put the focus on me, and work my own program to fix what is broken in me.
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
