The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Sometimes it would seem that terms translate well from the big book of AA to alanon and sometimes they don't. Here is one term that definitely applies to big headed egotist alcoholics like me:
Self-Will Run Riot:
This phrase comes from chapter 5 of the Big Book, 'Selfishness- self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.... So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us!' The only solution we know is to work the Steps.
**I am inclined to believe that in terms of most alanoners...self-will and learning to not be selfish is not as much of an issue as valuing self, learning self-care, etc... Am I wrong here? I was also told not to share any of what I "think" and not to ever use the word "I" either.
Hence, that person being myself (I) has used deductive reasoning (thinking) in a manner that has caused me confusion.
Not sure what advice you are getting Mark, but wonder if you are "over-thinking" it.....
Al-Anon guidelines are for us to share our E,S&H with each other..... Most times this means we do not "should" on each other - none of us have walked in one another's shoes - so it seems kind of ludicrous that we would know what others should or should not do.....
"Keep it Simple" comes to mind, as a helpful slogan here
Tom
__________________
"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
I cannot agree about my will being so non existent. Speaking of myself only, I know I was a case of self will run riot
My will did not manifest as such It looked pretty, kind, unselfish, generous- Directed at others to control and force others to act for me.
It was However an effort to manipulate people to get what I wanted. Bottom line My Will did not want me to suffer any pain or take any risk I wanted to sit back watch others take these risks and judge them, give advise and support their efforts and look good. The reason for this is that I was brought up in an alcoholic home and being right and perfect was all important.
Thank God for alanon and restoring my self, and self esteem.
Aloha Pinkchip...."Self will" is as old a behavior as the person. Infants apply self will from the womb...it is a natural behavior to attempt to get "needs met". If I watch some of the youngsters in my family they take it to "run riot" as naturally as any alcoholic I've ever had a relationship with including myself. No one has a patent on the term although at times it seems there might be a patent on the behavior.
I want what I want when I want it and I will do what I need to do to get it for whatever period of time it takes. In or out of the program that seems to be how its done. I cannot speak for other Al-Anon or AA members. I can only speak to my own experiences. I don't know how the majority or many others or even one other fellow does things or why. We have our own characters and motivations and experiences. I don't even know most Al-Anoners and will not "think" how they will or can do stuff. Let me watch and identify and then nod knowingly or learn something new.
Hotrod's experiences and motivations cause me to nod because of the simularities. There are differences in how we behaved. The membership is made up of individuals with similar experiences. I used more physical force to get what I wanted when I wanted it. I used threats of harm and obscene verbal and body language. I was controlling and imaginative in what I would do and how I would do it and my alcoholic and others had to resort to ourside help to make me not an issue. That was my self will run riot and it ran riot in a regular fashion. I did what I thought worked whether it did or not. We all have habits that can arrive at insanity or death.
In Al-Anon I've met many men who have more similar controling, self will, behaviors as myself. The male similarities I identify with. Being male is one of the things we identify with. Acting macho and maleish while testosterone and adrenalin are running at the same time will identify my behavior as different than alot of female members and still we can talk to the subject of self will. When self will is running riot there is one person always that I hurt and that is myself and thousands in the fellowship have shared the same experience as I've sat and listened to their experiences. I tell my story they identify...they tell theirs and I identify and then they share what they found out from others and what they learned and how they did different for different consequences. I learned to become responsible for the changes I needed to make to gain and maintain my peace of mind and serenity and only one of those was to care for myself by giving up self will other than to will my peace of mind and serenity or as the second step says "sanity".
It is insane for me to use another person to justify or blame for my self will run riot behaviors and the consequence I suffer from it when I have the time, ability and facility to take care of myself.
I'm sure there are others to listen to and I learn best when I listen. Thanks for your participation. (((((hugs)))))
I would have to agree with Hot Rod, my self will run riot was in full chaotic swing. Because of my fear I found it necessary to control, manipulate, and to arrange all of the players to suit me so that I WOULD BE O.K. I was a mass manipulator and I didnt not know it. I thought I was unselfish, hard working, giving, caring, you get it etc.
My sponsor is elderly. There was no alanon literature when she came into the program. She raised me on the BB of AA and I saw myself in the pages. But for the grace of God (one of my favorite slogans) I would have the allergy to alcohol. I already can relate to the obsession of the mind aspect.
I think it is best said on pp 62 "We had to Quit Playing God. It Didnt Work" That was my light bulb moment. When I took my hands off others and ceased trying to change them, the vision of my entire world changed.
I think the most important part of my recovery program is to Listen To the Similarities NOT The Differences. I am so glad you posted topic today because I myself always need the gentle reminders of who I am without a spiritual program in place.
Thanks Guys. My self-will run riot is that I assume I know what these terms mean to others without asking first. This helps. I'm so inclined to think that the alcoholic is the most willful person on earth and everyone else is not capable of being willful cuz they are all busy being dominated by the willful alcoholic. It's not the case I see. I do appreciate you guys helping me understand better.
P.S. Most of you know that the experience I bring to these boards is like 50 percent AA, 40 percent mental health counselor, and 10 percent ESH from living with an alcoholic/Alanon. I am very much learning alanon principles and that is a big part of why I am here. I have strong opinions and such and a big ego. It often takes me a day to realize when I am wrong or have something to learn. That is my progress and not perfection. Once again, thanks guys for teaching me and being patient. Much of what I am trying to do here is to learn to make me a better person and a better counselor too (even though I know I"m not supposed to be wearing that counselor hat here).
-- Edited by pinkchip on Sunday 30th of October 2011 01:29:06 PM
My will did not manifest as such It looked pretty, kind, unselfish, generous- Directed at others to control and force others to act for me.
It was However an effort to manipulate people to get what I wanted. Bottom line My Will did not want me to suffer any pain or take any risk I wanted to sit back watch others take these risks and judge them, give advise and support their efforts and look good. The reason for this is that I was brought up in an alcoholic home and being right and perfect was all important.
I could've written what HotRod shared. ME TOO. My actions may've looked nice and not controlling and thoughtful. It was just an illusion, though - internally I was controlling and manipulative and judging everyone for everything at every opportunity. If you'd asked me if I was controlling, I would've said no...because I thought I knew it all and just wanted the best for others. I really and truly did not understand that my synopsis of "best" was not necessarily the same for someone else. I was really and truly self will run riot, it was just totally disguised in a neat little package with a big pretty bow on top. The box hid a big ole yucky mess, though. :)
The BB of AA is probably one of the most spiritual pieces of literature I have found. It really helped me (and still is) in my recovery in so many ways. I would highly recommend it.
I would not change a thing about the topic or the content of your post. We are all growing along spiritual lines here. If I truly believe what is on pp 449, 3rd ed and listen for the similarities not the differences, I can find more ways to fall in greater depths of love and understanding of the MIP fellowship.
Isn't that what it is all about in the end, LOVE?
I love the many reflections of you. Keep posting, honestly and openly. I do so appreciate your contributions and insights.
Thanks Tommye, I don't ever want to come across like I know more than any of you about Alanon. I don't. I've only been to 1 F2F alanon meeting ever. It is in my nature to make some judgment calls and to be analytical. Sometimes this works in my favor and sometimes it doesn't. When people post here saying "please help" or "give me advice please" (which is often) I do know the standard alanon take on that, but on the other hand, social feeback is part of the 12 steps. My gut instinct is to help and try to fix. That is part of the reason I belong here I think. Still learning when to keep my mouth shut and that I really don't have a good answer to someone's problem and also to not give suggestion OR advice when it's not solicited.
I was taught by my double-winner sponsor that it's the exact same disease... AA's and al-anon's separating ourselves from Higher power (The Solution) in one way or another. We do it by relying on our own ideas, old beliefs and designs for living... on SELF. NOT on a Power greater than ourselves.
I agree there is a huge difference at the meetings... the new al-anon's and ACA's are trying to find their voice and the AA's are trying to quiet theirs, lol. I was really confused at first, but not anymore. I once believed "I am a victim" and on a deep level, "I must deserve this" and "I am not enough"... those are NOT messages from Higher power, they are the disease talking. I was lost, completely separated.
On the other topic, I always laugh when I see a "please help" post because if there is ONE THING WE LOVE TO DO.... it's help, hahaha. Of course, one must be prepared when you ask an al-anon for help because it's like trying to take a sip from a firehose, hehee
I have to exercise caution because if I'm not careful, helping others will take the focus off my own inner work... my ego gets high when I believe I'm the one doing the "helping." My sponsor taught me WHO actually does the help, I am only meant to be a channel.... Step 11 tells me that my opinions and ideas need to step out of the way. I think that's why we just share our Experience, strength and hope... then we let go and let God.
Sometimes, I would tell my sponsor, "I wouldn't be here if it weren't for you." She would reply, "Do NOT put me on a pedestal. If God didn't send me, He would have sent you somebody else."
-- Edited by glad lee on Monday 31st of October 2011 06:25:25 PM
__________________
The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
I get it Glad lee and thank much for your response. My version of an HP also includes people helping people. I believe God does work through people. This is very much behind my being a social worker. This concept worked for me in AA as "the group" was my first higher power. I think God is in all of us, so when people say "You can't say that cuz you aren't God." Well...all of us have God in us to a degree so who's to say that you or I might not be channeling something divine at times. But generally....no I don't think I channel jesus or God or whatever on a regular basis as that would be nuts. I do believe that when I act from love with the purest motives I can, it's doing God's will for me and sometimes that does involve sharing what I think or believe. We are instrumental in each other's lives and if I never knew what you thought about me, how would I know I needed to change? Especially when I believe my HP does speak through you.
P.S. I'm not just looking for validation to keep giving folks advice on here. Honest lol.
I learned that the way I tried to "love" my alcoholic loved ones in the past was wrong, even though I did what I did, and said what I said, with the BEST of intentions. I loved them, after all.
But my honesty was brutal. Clubbing someone over the head with "the truth" was not thoughtful, honest, intelligent, necessary or kind.
That's why I like taking the suggestion of the program.... only sharing my ESH and stay out of the "fixing" business.
There are MANY who will take unsolicited advice. For me, it was better to gently discover my answers by listening to others in the rooms of recovery... that's what helped ME to build MY relationship on a Higher power, not on human aid.
-- Edited by glad lee on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 01:50:27 PM
__________________
The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
