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Welllll....my ex RA has been very silent, but left messages on my phone last night. He wants to meet in a neutral place, because he feels he 'hasn't been heard.' He said if I'd just told him he was going to lose me, instead of leaving a note and running, he would have shaped up. He also said I was playing a dangerous game and he wanted to prevent this from happening to anybody in the future. In addition he pointed out that he is NOT suicidal, but he does have severe depression and if he was suicidal, the way I broke up w/him would have been too much to handle.
Needless to say this pushed my GUILT button big time. I realize his life is not my problem, but kicking someone out to be homeless ain't easy :P In addition, a friend of mine kicked out her mentally ill husband this year - a good guy but refused to help himself - and later he committed suicide. So this is a very sore subject. It hurts.
I don't want to see my RA, where I feel he will continue to push the guilt button big time and harp on how awful and dangerous I am. I also want to do the adult thing. My quandry is, should I ignore this entirely? Send him an email telling him no thanks and look to program for help? I just want to do the right thing.
I also want to ship him to Mars, but that isn't possible!
Wow Rara... at least three blatant attempts at blaming you in his brief message, and sounds like some pretty obvious attempts on his part, to make you feel 'responsible' for him choosing to NOT deal with his issues.... Heck, if his one point is true, then I guess we can throw the three C's out the window, huh??
In these situations, I always try to take a step back and ask myself "what is good for me", as in - do YOU have anything to gain by having this meeting? If you need it for some kind of closure, or perhaps even to alleviate your guilt, then you may want to agree to it...... If not, I would gratefully decline.
Sounds like more "addiction babble" to me...
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
This sounds like the cycle i was in with my ex. Saying "if you'd have just ______ instead of _______," I would've shaped up puts the responsibilty on YOU for his actions. You already know you can't make him either drink or not drink, no matter what actions you take. Seems like you put it out there how you felt and did what you needed to do - and at this point, where is the benefit FOR YOU in meeting him? If there's a benefit, great. But if there isn't, and you're only going out of guilt ... which means you may be susceptible to more guilt at the time of the actual meeting - may be better to pass. What do you really want?
I find it amazing that we have this immense power... we can make them feel and think and do things beyond normal human ability... oh that is anything except give up the substances hey.....
If we really had power to make them do things such as commit suicide.... if we as other people could influence such massive behaviour... we would also be able to make them stop drinking.
It is obvious we do not have that power.
You have not made him do anything that he has not had a part in. It is his choices that have found him where he is.
When I left one of my partners I left a note, picked up my cat and some clothes and left. All further correspondence was through fax.
He called my friend (not me) saying that he was sitting with a shotgun in his mouth ready to pull the trigger because of what I had to him. My friend was beside herselft.... called me begging me to talk to him, she was a mess. I refused both of them. I told my friend, what he does is up to him, and for her to hang up the phone.
She was shocked I said that. He did not hurt or harm himself. He then stalked me with a rifle for several months (I found out the details later), but he never actually did anything....
This is just my experience, yours may be different. I agree with Tom
Rara, I agree with what everyone has had to say. I think most everyone will also agree. I will only add that you are no more responsible for his problems than the Betty Ford Clinic is responsible for causing alcoholism. We are just not that powerful.
Do the next right thing for you with no second thoughts what ever that might entail.
I find it amazing that we have this immense power... we can make them feel and think and do things beyond normal human ability... oh that is anything except give up the substances hey.....
If we really had power to make them do things such as commit suicide.... if we as other people could influence such massive behaviour... we would also be able to make them stop drinking.
It is obvious we do not have that power.
You have not made him do anything that he has not had a part in. It is his choices that have found him where he is.
When I left one of my partners I left a note, picked up my cat and some clothes and left. All further correspondence was through fax.
He called my friend (not me) saying that he was sitting with a shotgun in his mouth ready to pull the trigger because of what I had to him. My friend was beside herselft.... called me begging me to talk to him, she was a mess. I refused both of them. I told my friend, what he does is up to him, and for her to hang up the phone.
She was shocked I said that. He did not hurt or harm himself. He then stalked me with a rifle for several months (I found out the details later), but he never actually did anything....
This is just my experience, yours may be different. I agree with Tom
LInda- I just copied and pasted your response in BOLD into my online journal. Great ESH! Thank you!
You did not make him homeless. His own actions made him homeless. Maybe if he wanted to be welcome in your home, he shouldn't have pooped on your floor. He doesn't think actions like that should make a difference? Isn't their insanity amazing?
They'll do anything to drag us back into the net. It looks to me as if he's having trouble with who's responsible here. If you're not responsible for what's happened to him -- if you're not responsible for the situation of an adult man who makes his own choices -- then he must be responsible. That might mean he'd have to reassess his alcohol intake. The disease will do anything and blame anyone to keep that from happening.
Keep on taking good care of yourself. He's showing how "aware" he is with every action. If he wanted to earn your trust again over time, he knows how to find the doors of AA. If he wants to figure out who should take responsibility, AA can help with that too. And if you were so awful and destructive, why on earth would he want to see you again?
I agree with the ESH. I remember my Ex druggie, he pulled something similar. I abandon him, I was a horrible person that would reek havoc on my next relationship. LOL .. some of the stuff was straight up crazy. I just let him talk thankfully he was to lazy to deal with the issue of actually driving anywhere to DO anything. He made a couple of threats again I was able to bluff him and told him I had a restraining order he never decided to test it.
Please don't back down, don't put yourself into a situation that is private (no public people around even then I don't think it's a good idea), I am all about when someone has nothing to loose it is when they are most dangerous.
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
Dear Apparantly Very Dangerous Rara Avis (AVDRA! New nickname for you!) The only winning move is, not to play. The adult thing to do is protect yourself; you know you did everything you could to get through to him. My ex keeps sending me song titles, says i should listen to them, Last one said, what if i'd (he'd)been the one to say goodbye? which sends the message to me that all he gets from everything i've tried to tell him (you never told him he would lose you? sound familiar) is that I was the one who ended our relationship - I chose this path, i said goodbye and dumped him for no good reason (that's just funny eh?). There is nothing in anything he's done for the last 9 months to accept that anything was remotely his fault. when he leaves messages with a certain tone, as soon as I recognize the tone of his voice (sometimes he leaves decent messages and that tone of voice is different and easy to recognize) I hit the erase button. If he send texts that hurt, i text back that phone is going off - i shrug my shoulders at the messages because I know -I KNOW - that I DID tell him he was going to lose me; and, that the majority of the problem revolves around the addiction and the behaviors brought on by it. and, probably most important thing I know is that nothing I say will make any difference - so its better not to play along.
I remember reading an article about divorce, one guy said "I knew she was unhappy, but I figured she just got over it". Duh! There were a lot of times over the last 10 months where I told him it was best we not speak for awhile because I'd get so re-caught up in things and the same circus music would start to play, merry-go-round start to whirl and ..... ya know?
Does he insinuate you are playing a dangerous game with guys and he wants to protect other guys from your games? Mine always went for the bi-polar, psychotic ___________ (woman who slept with everybody)(not a nice word, oh yeah, I love you... ). Which I'm not so since I know it isn't true I have no worries there. Are you dangerous? No? Well, maybe to dust bunnies cowering behind garage shelves.
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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
I don't want to see my RA, where I feel he will continue to push the guilt button big time and harp on how awful and dangerous I am. I also want to do the adult thing.
The adult thing is to trust your instincts and don't play play the guilt game with him.
I mailed his storage key to his sponsor [ didn't get through via bicycle messenger either ], so I think what I'll do is email him that his sponsor will have the key and that I don't want to meet in person. Part of me wants to tell him why, and to point out that he doesn't have many friends left, or family - maybe he should wonder why? hmm - but I think talking is futile. He thinks he can do no wrong. I don't want to seem passive aggressive, but I don't want to avail myself to giving him the opportunity to tell me how I am a horrible human being. And I don't want to manipulate him into having to see his sponsor, but I'm not going to be forced to drop off that key in person, either. Grr.
Hearing from people who have been in the same boat is REALLY helpful. It helps me feel like less of a bad/crazy person. This incessant drama is crazy making, unnecessary, and it must stop. I wish my RA would take responsibility for his actions and see how his choices have created his life, but since I can't control that and he won't anyway, it seems like the best I can do is cut all ties. That's so sad.
Of course I have to say that when in doubt, the image: TURD ON FLOOR makes the situation pretty durn clear to me!
. my mum is sick too- when she trys and push guilt buttons i dont respond- last night she phoned and said simply "I missed you today" and didnt do ANY BLAME_ emotional blackmail or manipulation at all- and today she got a box of chocs.
i completely undeourrstand youour feelings 100%, yours is a horrid situation to be in. Yes i think you should be mindful of his depression BUT you must also act on your gut instinct and vou validate your feelings, YOur feelings not his. I think its fair to say to him- youll only have contact if he doesnt play games- mind bend and blame and do the guilt thing and will only meet if he is open and honest....i dont think he is at the stage where he can do this but this puts the ball back into his court and if he cant play ball - you shouldnt feel bad for it. but if you wnt let him play ball you might feel anxious- worried and guilty and worry abut the suicide thing.....just do whatever feels right for YOU, and what ever makes YOU feel better and will take the load off. dont do it for him but for you. xxx
I'm very glad to hear you are not going to confront him or allow him to go places in a conversation that at this point is done. You can't rationalize with an irrational person. He is not rational. Hugs P;)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
On re-reading your initial post, I have to laugh at him saying that he wants to meet up so he can help you be kinder to other people in the future! Him putting himself in the role of wise advisor on your decisions and mental health. Doesn't it just beat all? We like to think we can control them, and they also like to think they can control us. Well, if he's really so concerned about it, he can send you a letter, written on paper, through the mail. Something you can open in twenty years and laugh and roll your eyes. Jeepers!
I'm glad you're taking such good care of yourself. The saying "Recovery isn't winning, it's not playing" has been essential for me in stressful times. It's so so so so so so hard to let go of the thought of "winning." I still catch myself having conversations in my head in which I formulate exactly the right thing to say to my ex, the thing that perfectly expresses all my pain and the mistakes he made. Even in my daydreams, though, I can never get him to see my point. I think you are so wise to recognize that an in-person conversation would go nowhere and would just be continuing to play. He is working hard to keep you emeshed in the game. But you've got a stronger weapon -- recovery.
Rara, I do the same thing Mattie does, have conversations with "him" - always am left knowing it would do no good to try. I like "Recovery isn't winning, its not playing" I'll have to remember that one too. Mine used to say things like, "if you can be civil...." grrr. oh well.
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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
A big aha moment for me was the guilt - control connection. I asked my counselor one day -- why is it that I so readily feel GUILTY when things go wrong? I discovered that it is related to my idea that I can control things...because if I believe things are under my control then when they go wrong, OF COURSE it's my fault.
And for me, the control fantasy is how I cope...because I believe (falsely) that when I control things, life will be predictable.
It's all codependent BS. Somedays I am buyin it -- hook line and sinker
My path to wellness is learning that I am a miracle, and that life is unpredictable...and that no matter what happens, I will be okay. (oh, and that I can't control stuff!)
Rara...Agree with all opinions stated above. He sounds like that horror movie villain that keeps coming back in desperate attempts to get at the heroine after he should already be long dead. His attempts to control and guilt you are verging on ridiculous now...Unfortunately it's not really funny and it is kind of scary. He sounds stalker-ish and I would set real firm boundaries.
This is cross talk I think, but haha that statement about "desperate attempt to get the heroine after he should already be long dead " just cracked me up! It also applies to other situations I've heard about. Good one!
Thanks everyone. I am STILL trying to get him the friggin' storage key w/out seeing him in person. Now his sponsor has it.l There is no danger here other than my guilt complex being way pushed. I have a hunch that he is stalling taking care of his stuff because he can blame lack of access to it on me. After tapping in on this board I am emailing him but NOT calling to tell him where to get it. Wish me luck!!!
I laughed and smiled so many times in relating to you "The totally dangerous rara avis". Oh my the games and the whole talk of pooping on your floor, haha, I just love you!!!!! I love this program and this MIP group! Thanks all I needed this share and ESH tonight! Sending you all love and support on your recovery journey's!!!
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God grant me the serenity To accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.
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