The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
How do we decide what is acceptable and what is unacceptable behavior? What consequences does our qualifier face for their behavior? I'm really struggling with this today. I had a lot of time to think today (long train ride) and while I am still feeling good & positive about everything, I am also spending a lot of time thinking about my wife's behavior on my birthday earlier this week. I posted about this, she wound up in a bad state and cursed me out visciously in front of our kids, calling me names that I've never called anyone.
Is this "verbal abuse" ok? Acceptable? I've asked before and most seem to think that infidelity is not acceptable. So is this? If it went the other way, and I was the alcoholic and I did this to my wife, would it be acceptable? Is it a gender thing?
I didn't ask my wife if she had been drinking on my birthday. I assume she had but I really just do not care. I know when she's not right, I don't need to know the why's. I think the general thinking about this topic will be that it wasn't my wife cursing me out, it was the disease. But what if she wasn't drunk?
I guess it really comes down to a personal decision as to what is acceptable.
I'm venting/thinking out loud a bit here, I still feel really good about everything since my meeting Tuesday night. Just stuck on this concept. Thanks for letting me share.
I am truely sorry she talked to you that way in frount of the kids is especially bad..nope it's not a gender thing to me. Ugly talk is ugly no matter the person and it does hurt the children. YOU can do a great deal of dammage control and they can turn out okay by your good example so that's a real positive!!
I'll try not to venture farthur into advise giving. Children are the most important issue here for sure.
It is my understanding that even if she is not drinking at the moment, alcoholism may still be in control of her brain and emotions. I can share that birthdays are a big deal to me,,, not so much what is done or spent but the "specialness" of the day.
For some reason my ex A always "dismissed" my birthday, was too tired, sick or mad at something... it seemed like he couldn't "handle" the pressure of showing love on a special day... weird but true... anyway
as I've said in almost every post since I saw it: there is a vidio included in the sticky post at top of board that is titled: Why Alcoholism is listed as a disease in the AMA: the speaker outlines why the brain can't function right when one is addicted to alcohol and answered so many of the "why's" that I had taken personally,, things that a normal brain would know better than to do or wouldn't even think to do were explained to me.
This helped with so much of my sadness, released me from wondering what I could have done differently.
If you watch it I hope it is the ahhh haa moment for you that it has been for me.
-- Edited by glad on Thursday 15th of September 2011 01:22:16 PM
I sit here and read post and it sounds like my story,,,,bits and pieces I see of me all over this message board. I to have an AH who is verbally abusive and he to "dismisses" my birthday every year. Every year is the same thing different day. He doesn't even say Happy Birtday. Our anniversary every year comes and goes. His mom remembers but he doesn't. I'm looking back at my life and I see now what I should have seen many years ago. Now he has cirrhosis, things have gotten a little better since a month ago, he's home and not in a nursing home anymore. But the worry is still there. I worry that he won't get better, that his liver is to far gone to even try to heal what is left. I'm so afraid he won't be here this time next year. He's had 3 belly drainings in the past month and just this last time they took almost 2 gallons of fluid. I pray a lot. I've always wondered the same thing consequences, boundaries, acceptable behavior, etc, how much does one take?
I can relate. A few months ago my wife while under the influence called me a name that was inapporiate and uncalled for. I told her in pleasant voice that I didn't deserve to be talked to like that and it was unacceptabe, then walked away and left it at that. The next day she did call me and appolige.
Abuse be it verbal, physical, or emotional is all the same. It's abuse. If I had allowed it, then I would have been condoning it. If I had called her a name back, then I would have been wrong. It has not happened again so I have not had to cross that bridge. I will continue to treat her with respect, I always have. I expect the same from her.
My wife is a good woman, the disease on the other hand................fill in the blank.
We all have to do what is right for us, and it does come down to as you stated......"It's a personal decision as to what is acceptable".
I think what used to kill me about boundaries is that I didn't know how to do them as I grew up without them. So for me boundaries are trial and error. There are people who I no longer speak to because they don't know how to treat me with respect. I engage with them as little as possible. I have nothing to say if they can't be polite, respectful and clear then I'm not dealing with them in any way.
There are other people, people who I have to work with who I don't get to have that kind of boundary with.
Of course the issue is when you start having boundaries when you didn't have them before its not as though you have people cheering you on. I know when I cut the ex A off from his telephoning me he absolutely could not believe I would do that. He certainly didn't turn around and say "wow great boundary".
Boundaries don't necessarily have to be a huge confrontation. I've been down the road of confrontation with my roommates. In some ways they feed on it. In other ways they can't believe I would stand my ground with them.
Personally I don't have the "you can't speak to me that way" conversation. I have a consequence. If people are rude to me, there is a boundary that goes in. I become more distant.
Naturally around people we want to impress, be friends with that's a hard one. One of my newer roommates has lots of boundary issues. He swears he has great ones then he shows he hasn't. So I watch the boundaries very carefully.
Some of the issue of having boundaries when they haven't been any is how do you make a consequence. If your children are around of course you can't just walk out as someone has to take care of them. In so many ways I wish I could be a million miles from my roommates regularly. They are so annoying, trying and manipulative. On the other hand what a great chance to practice boundaries!
In some ways I am so happy for you that you are going to learn how to do this and be able to have a cheer squad here at MIP. In some ways I wish you a lot of luck because some of it is so trial and error. I hope you will persevere and give yourself a lot of space to fall down and get back up.
I want to add... "acceptable" or "unacceptable" is that really our question?
Of course it's horrible behavior!!! horrible!!
But are we done or are we still willing to live this life as best we can as it is?
seems to me that no matter if we are in the house with the A or not ,, the real question for me is am I done with this person having a part of my life.... having children must multiply that quandry by infinate ammounts...
Early in recovery, I wondered the same thing. As an ACOA, I grew up with unacceptable behavior so I became an adult with NO CLUE about what was acceptable/unacceptable.
Today, thanks to al-anon, I know that I am no more/no less than anyone else. As children of God, we are all equal. Today I know that no one deserves to be yelled at... and if it happens to me, I explain that I will not be talked to in that manner. If you can't speak to me with respect... the same respect I give you... I walk away. Perhaps we can pick this conversation up again if/when you're ready to communicate to me with respect.
AA's 12x12 made a big impression on me when it explains making amends... that we make amends sincerely, but... "as God's own children, we grovel before no one."
As for infidelity, I do not have personal experience. All I can share is that my first sponsor, who is a double winner, was unfaithful to her husband. They are still together. She has explained that not a day goes by that she doesn't regret what happened.... And how grateful she is that he truly forgave her. They celebrated their 30th anniversary this year, they are a beautiful couple... very generous to the fellowship, always hosting spaghetti dinners at their house to newcomers. They have what I want.
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The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
Before al-anon came into my life things were like that. Our son was scared and the A was raging out of control most of the time. I believed it to be verbal abuse, and still do. I remember the night he called me the "C" word, not even in front of our son. Things changed for me.
It came to light for me one day when he was in an absolute rage. The door bell rang and he opened it so nicely, spoke the the person on the other side of the door respectfully, and one would have never known he was losing it just before the door opened. At that point, all the excuses were gone. I was made full aware he was capable of controlling himself, he just didn't choose to do so with me. He wasn't interested in getting his way with the person at the door so the abusive tactics were not required.
I realized through my program that I did have a part to play. I started to do things differently. I had the plan A, B, and C. When he started to get ugly, I would remove myself and my child from the situation. I had to physically do that for a while. I used the time to strengthen the relationship with our son. It was a very nice time actually. He caught on very quickly that I would not tolerate that even in minute doses.
I think the "how much" is always a personal decision, as everyone has a different tolerance level of what and/or how much abuse they can or will put up with.... I typically try to start from the vantage point of "how would I like to be treated", and go from there...
The challenging thing in all of this, of course, is to tie consequences to these levels..... Okay, if verbal abuse (like you experienced from your A on your b/day) is unacceptable, what are the consequences of "unacceptable"? This is where our program can help, and give us additional comfort that we are making the right choices - for OUR peace, serenity, and well being....
I wish you well
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
I agree totally that boundaries have to be a personal decision. For me, I define boundaries based upon how I feel. If I feel bad/scared/threatened by something, then I set my boundary to protect myself. Setting boundaries was such a process. I never just woke up and had an idea in my head of all kinds of boundaries I was going to set and why. The lines just gradually got etched in the sand...just a little, barely visible line at first, and then a deeper and darker line. I didn't consciously think, "I'm setting a BOUNDARY." I just thought, I'm going to do _____ to protect myself (a big one for me was not getting in cars with people who have been drinking. Although it wasn't a good way that I set that one - at first, I decided that I would ride with a person if they hadn't had more than 3 drinks - it was a start and it was the best I knew how to do. In my recovery evolution, I've discovered that enforcing that boundary made me the drink police, because I had to count drinks in order to take care of myself. I eventually recognized that that didn't make me happy. Now, I don't ride with people that have been drinking. Period. I don't make it my business to count the drinks).
As far as the consequences our qualifiers face, I reeeeally wanted to be the one to give my qualifiers the consequences. I admit it, I DID. But being the one that doles out the consequences to my qualifiers was an idea I just had to put down. I can't be the enforcer. I can't be the one deciding what someone else's consequence should be. I make my decisions based upon what I need for me, and then the other person takes from that whatever they choose to take. If someone is verbally abusing me and I pack my kids up and take them to the park rather than sit there and listen, I get out of the situation to protect myself. I don't walk away to teach a lesson to someone else, and whatever the other person gets out of that (or doesn't get out of it, as the case very well may be) is completely up to that person.
Verbal abuse is never okay, no matter who is dishing it. All of us are creatures of HP and deserve to be respected. A sick person may lash out, but their sickness is not an excuse. Since we can't do anything to change the other person's behavior, the only thing we can do is decide how we will protect ourselves should the need arise. In my experience, if I consistently enforce my boundary, the other person begins to test it less and less frequently.
no - its NOT acceptable. but you will need loads of support and al anon meets etc to gain some strength and perspective. so I am not expecting you to figure this out straight away. Its a long road and i dnt think you can set goals for them that are unnatainable....for example in my case, i cant expect my mum to be a beacon of tact and social grace...I still expect her to come oout with nagging little digs and just the odd stuff that flows out of her mouth without control-- because she has problems- HUGE ones....but she absolutely musnt say things t me like
" you live in squalor " (not to true and a 1000 times egsageration...infact- you guys know this so why am I even saying this- but when you hear these things yu have to know shes sick and has a different take on reality shall we say)
" oh- your poor son" (for having a mum like you)
"you are a nightmare" " you have always been hard work, a nightmare....."
you get my drift? but in my case she says these still- and shes been sober for years.....but these things are not acceptable for me- and whilst i detach from it- i do say- and it takes guts- the next day...."Look, I really cant have it" etc
but in your case your wife is still drinking....so sadly... you cant really expect much more from her than she is doing it at the moment. its impossible to accept normal behaviour from smeone who is drunk and is right in the centre of the eye of the disease.
So Im saying- in the future you should work towards getting better out of her and not taking it
but at this present time......are you powerless over it?
try and get her to AA......i dont know how its done....ut i can tell you my mum drunk for many years- she was a chronically sick person- it took ONE AA meeting and she never drank again......actually it might have been two.....i have to be honest....but it was very swift and she was straight in the arms of care- expertise and the road to recovery.
Aloha Use to be...If the behavior is beyond acceptable limits or any acceptable limits of relationship and continue in a hurtful manner it is abusive. I am a former Alternatives to violence mens' case manager and counselor...it works both ways and we use to teach that if the behavior ...verbal or non-verbal was abusive "get the abuser pulled out of the family circle and have them place elsewhere even if that was incarceration". The counter reaction is the consequence; just one of them and consequences help people to reach bottoms or limits or choices to change. The abuser and the abused get consequences and can use the consequences to enforce change where it is necessary and with whom.
I learned how to set boundaries using my gut where my value systems are stored. When something is happening and I am witness to it and my gut or value system tells me "that is how we are supposed to treat people and how I like to treat others and be treated" my value system is saying "nice...like it". If my value system is telling me that what is happening is the opposite and that I don't treat others like that and wish not to be treated that way myself the boundary; wall; red flags; extended palm (as in STOP!!) or some other intrument of resistence appears. I'm saying stop and don't go beyond for my health, your health and our health. One of the consequences of that is the learning that the other person gets that what they are doing and what is going on isn't acceptable to you and will work against what their needs (whatever those are) are. Boundaries help to teach others who you are and what you are regarding your atmosphere. Boundaries when I break them also do the same to me and drive me toward apologies and amends (getting back toward right behaviors). I get to pay attention not only to "those guys and what they are doing but also to myself and what I am doing."
gender has nothing to do with behavior...it doesn't justify conscious unacceptable behavior. Acceptable and non-acceptable behaviors are simply those. Of course there are tons and tons of justifications that can be tried to justify unacceptable stuff in myself while I blame and shame others for what they do however that veil is very thin and the attempt at justification itself becomes unacceptable.
Our program runs on principles not personalities. What is fair, honest and just as I have learned is living in the principles.
What levels the playing ground for me isn't in the head work of what is the cause of the condition or problem such as disease or not. Non-addicted good people do absolutely terrible stuff time to time and in order to level that playing ground, including myself is to continue to learn and practice the opposite of resentments...which is forgiveness. I get to make my feelings and thoughts about the situation known and then I get to drop it and forgive the "other" person whomever. If I don't learn and practice that I stay in the problem and the fear and the anger, rage and resentment far beyond rational and then...self abuse.
Meetings, literature, steps, traditions, slogans, sponsor and thru it all Higher Power. This works when you work it.
I once complained to my sponsor about how my alcoholic/addict wife would sometimes talk to me, like your post here and he had the nerve to say to me, "Soooo Jerry F, Words can really hurt you huh?" Glad to be a work in progress and for your post and the support of the MIP fellowship.
This is my take on what is or is not acceptable and where I go with things, my two cents. Take what you like. :)
There was a visitor who came to my home meeting, they came from out of town. The visitor was a rock star as far as solid in their program and so on. They made the comment that they had a right to say something once about someone's unhealthy behavior after that it became about boundaries. Sticking to the boundaries that they had made. I love the fact when I first came here there was more than one person who suggested that boundaries are promises we make to ourselves about what we will tolerate as far as behavior. The consequence may be leaving the room, or taking our own timeout in some way (exercising, meeting, whatever it means to us as far as a timeout).
Verbal abuse is not ok. It is never ok for our children to see either parent being spoken to as if they do not matter it undermines us as parents. It doesn't mean I need to pick a fight with my AH about it however yes, that is something I will address as soon as the moment presents itself. For me that is a HUGE boundary issue, and I have been able to turn the tables on my AH and ask him how he would feel if he had to witness our daughter being spoken to like that by someone who was suppose to be the love of their life. Would that be ok with him? If not then why is it ok for him to speak or treat me as if I am less than? I will no longer tolerate that kind of behavior. It's not about controlling him it's about it's just not ok with me. He was a little horrified when he identified with what I said about our eldest. I have also pointed out that raising our son to disrespect women is not a good thing. It is never ok to be treated as if we are less than even if no children are involved it's just not ok.
Hugs you are really handling this all in an amazing way which is a testiment to your own healing and working your program :) P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
My take is that it is unacceptable period. Yes it is her disease but she has the power to put her disease in remission and she is an adult who is in charge of her own behaviors. No judge is going to let her off the hook for assault or any other criminal behavior because she has "a disease." The disease model is meant to help you understand more about alcoholism. It helps you not be so angry but it doesn't make unacceptable behaviors okay. It is not an excuse for someone to continue drinking and treating everyone else around them like crap.
You get to make your own boundaries. It would be natural to detach even further after such an incident of abuse. I know in some ways it would help you to get permission from us and others to do that, but YOU need to give yourself permission to stand firm and stick to your boundaries.
