The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I saw a separate post entitled "Al-Anon Annoys Me" by jBunny. I agree with many of her findings regarding Al-Anon meetings (I've been to four). I am new, too, and am having a very difficult time sorting everything out.
My son is married to a raging alcoholic, which has now been going on for two years. His wife has sent him off to jail twice, claiming that he beat her--I know otherwise--it is the reverse. She both mentally and physically abuses him.
The worst part is that my son has come so far since his latter days in high school and post high school. He spent time himself in a very good rehab center for drug (I think marijuana) and alcohol (beer) use when he was just 19. He did well, spent two years in the Nay and is now a surveyor. He was so excited about finishing his Associate's degree when everything blew up. He was proud of his once nice home, before the spills, cigarette burns, etc. weren't cleaned up before he returned home from work.
His father and I (although divorced), grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, and coworkers just see his hard-earned gains going right down the tubes with his wife. In addition to alcoholism, she has mental illness and is very manipulative. If she thinks my son is going to leave, then she'll do a stint in rehab (two times now and worse than when she went in). But now she knows his threats are completely empty and so do we.
My son just takes whatever she dishes out to him and will not take a stand for himself. This is very unlike him, as he would not let anyone else treat him so shabbily. He is cutting himself off from all his family (we all live in separate states). We barely recognize the gentle young man we once new.
I know the "detach with love" saying. But there is a huge elephant in the middle of the room and we can't talk about it. We talk around it but pretend it doesn't exist. His wife is taking him straight to hell with her and he seems very willing to take the trip. I am beside myself with worry because we live so far from each other. I've suggested Al-Anon, counseling, etc. but he believes he is in control of everything.
-- Edited by PrincessPeriwinkle on Tuesday 30th of August 2011 03:22:25 PM
Hi princess, and welcome to MIP. This will probably be difficult for you to hear, but there is nothing you can do about the situation. You can not control your son, or his wife. She has to want to get help for herself before she can get better. It's unfortunate your son is having to deal with this, but as you mentioned ¨..he seems very willing to take the trip¨. When (if) he finally realizes he is NOT ¨in control of everything¨, perhaps he will decide to do something about it. As in making changes for himself as he too can not control his wife or what she does. As far as alanon goes, I know not everyone gets it. Or at least not all of the time. Many people did not understand it their first time but ended up coming back months, or even years later. I had some difficulties at first understanding the principles and putting them into practice. But since I had tried everythign else and nothing had worked, I stuck with it (alanon) and little by little it all started making sense to me. One of the hardest things to realize was that I was powerless over my A's drinking. But it's so true. Nothing I said or did made any difference. So I learned to put the focus on me and take care of myself first. And that has made a huge difference-not in my A, he continues to drink. And I still struggle with that. But TCOMF has definitely made my life better. Thanks for sharing, I hope you keep coming back. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Your son is a grown adult making decisions that he feels are best for him. It really doesn't matter if you feel they are best or not as you do not have the ability to sway his perceptions. It seems that you might have tried already and that didn't work.
He is more than willing to do things his own way right now and isn't sick and tired of being sick and tired yet. There isn't a thing you can do about that as frustrating as that is.
I also do not believe that your son was "sent" off to jail twice. He may have risen to the occasion and chose to stay in a situation where he could be questioned about his behaviors regardless of his innocence or not. I can choose to hold the other end of the rope for the tug of war or drop it and end the issue. I cannot fight by myself and neither can he. He could have left the situation when it started to escalate, avoiding being there for the police to be called on him. He could do many things that would aid in his situation improving, but he doesn't.
I learned those things in Al-anon, and especially how to drop the rope. I used to stay in the frame of mind that the other person had to drop it, putting myself through more than I needed to. I put controlling the situation above my best interest.
Your son might need to realize he can't control her, or anything else past the tip of his nose.
It is a very helpless and frustrating situation to be in, seeing a loved one making decisions that bring them negative results. I feel for what you are watching.
As far as Al-anon, I struggled with those feelings for over six months. When I got past myself and decided to put as much effort in understanding as I did resisting, I got it and my whole life changed. It continues to change, whether I have an A in it or not.
It is very very hard to see family members -- or anyone -- sucked into the craziness that is alcoholism. It is very very hard to understand why they stay and put up with it.
If we could persuade them or force them to do differently, we would. If they could persuade or force the alcoholic to act differently, they would. There would be no alcoholism or codependency left in the world if we could have any effect on the situation. But we have no power over the choices of other adults. That is why Al-Anon has the three C's: You didn't Cause it, you can't Cure it, you can't Control it. It's not that we think you shouldn't be able to. It's that the experience of millions of people over many years has shown that we just can't.
So part of what we have to do is to learn to handle life where someone near to us is in a terrible addictive situation. There is some good news here. We can influence the situation by changing our own attitudes and behavior. We can't make them do anything, but if we change for ourselves, we can get free of the craziness of addiction, and that will change the dynamic of the whole situation. We can't control how exactly it changes. But it will get healthier.
Ironically, the first step towards changing it all is to acknowledge that we are powerless. (Because if we did have any power over the addiction, we would have changed it already!) And so we have to give up trying to control everything except ourselves.
Here's something that might help clarify why your son stays in this difficult relationship. The attachment you feel to his well-being -- your difficulty in detaching from trying to make things happen a certain way -- is exactly the attachment he feels to his wife's well-being. He finds it just as hard to give up trying to control the outcome as you do trying to control his outcome. (If you follow me.) You don't want to let go, and equally strongly, he doesn't want to let go.
The good news, as I say, is that if you model healthy "detachment with love" and work your own program of recovery (because everyone within the reach of addiction is drawn into the insanity and can benefit from a program of recovery), the dynamic will change. Some of it will rub off on him. You will know the best way to approach him when the subject comes up. And you will have a serenity that will spread outwards. Most of all, you can recover a kind of strength that will make this journey so much easier. Anyway, that's my experience. Hugs to you, and I hope you'll continue learning about addiction/alcoholism and the program, and keep coming back.
THANDK YOU to everyone who responded so quickly to my desperate post. It is very much appreciated. I like the forum because I can read your responses now and then re-read them whenever I want or need to. And, the forum is "open" 24/7. There is a lot to take in so I know that I will be referring back often.
To clep--you made me think about some things. And, as much as I do not want to admit it, you are right. My son is an adult and he has decided, although unwisely, to continue to participate in the insanity once it escalates, rather than leaving as you note.
I see that the 12 steps are listed on this site and I will visit the page later. Would you please tell me a little bit about the steps and how it is all supposed to work--"working the program?"
When I talk to my son now, I play the game that his wife doesn't exist. I have no problem at all "detaching" from her. However, my son brings her into the conversation on occasion, as if everything is normal. Do I continue to pretend everything is just wonderful?
I remember doing what he is doing also...I wanted to believe sooo much that I was in control also until I got to Al-Anon and was allowed to say out loud the truth I kept hidden inside me...the elephant...It was a relief to say, I admit I am powerless over alcohol and that my life has become unmanagable. Someday he might also nod up and down when he hears and says that 1st step. Praying for him...thanks (((hugs)))
It sounds like you could benefit from going to a face to face meeting. Alanon is not just for people who are married to alcoholics or addicts. It is meant to help us learn to deal with the addicts in our lives, children, spouses, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters and so on. There is a wealth of information in meetings they talk about the 12 steps and what it means to work a program. If you go to a meeting it's for you, not for your son and not for his wife. It's to help you have a healthy realtionship with your son and his family. Pretending that the wife doesn't exist is fruitless. She does he is married to her. However you can help your son by learning how to set boundaries for yourself and not getting into their business. I've learned a lot about not judging other people's situations because I haven't had to walk in their shoes and doing better, still working on just listening. Just because someone shares something with me doesn't mean I need to jump in and fix it, it's ok for me to just listen and keep my mouth shut. Even if they ask me, it's ok not to have an answer because maybe my answer isn't the right one for them.
For whatever reason your son has choosen his path with an alcoholic and who knows how long this path .. the flip side he will always be your son. Should they have kids these children, (the kids will) need to have some normalcy of in their lives and aren't meant to be used as pawns in a game of adults. His marriage is his business, regardless of how you feel about his wife, he did choose her.
__________________
Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
Welcome to MIP. Your post brought back many memories for me. I know how much my journey to find serenity in my life during my marriage and continuing now has hurt my mom. We shared being naive and uneducated about addiction in the beginning. My marriage and life rapidly went downhill and she was forced to watch. Since I am more than a bit stubborn and hard headed she watched the outcome of each of my attempts to keep my life in some kind of order. Then I hit my bottom ... AlAnon steps, principles, support and family picked me back up. Now years later I use my tools in all my affairs as much as I am able to. And i wish my mom had chosen more involvement and to gain knowledge in this part of my journey so that my decisions and lifestyle were better understood and shared. I am glad you found AlAnon and MIP, and hope that you find the tools and serenity that have helped me so much in my life.
I didn't like alanon at first either. I didn't want to go. I didn't understand the meetings. I couldn't understand how it was supposed to help when no one would tell me what to *DO* about my A. Eventually I left alanon. I left this board. I thought I didn't need this support system. Well guess what? I came back. I found I needed to talk to people who *knew* exactly what I was going through and where I was at. I started to go to meetings and talking to people afterwards, that was the key. When I listened during the meetings and shared when I could, and began to ask people after the meetings about things, I started to *get* it. I don't want to be here, I don't think any one wants to have to be here, but I am so glad I am here! I am eternally grateful to this board and to the alanon meetings that were suggested to me by folks like Tom, RLC, Jerry, Abbyal, and Debilyn... Those guys loved me when I didn't love me. I went to meetings and the people there were so warm and friendly to me, I couldn't understand it. I got a sponsor and I have people in the program to call now.
Working the program... it is for me, when I can help others. I have to get out of my own head so to speak. When I help others I am doing service work and it makes me feel better and helps me work my program. So when we help others, it helps us. My sponsor says this all the time, I thank her for helping me with a dilema (its always a drama in the moment) and then she says "and thank you for helping me stay on track too".... Its amazing. Its like an inter-exchange of love and understanding, acceptance and caring. Its a healthy relationship and it is amazing. So working the program for me, is using the tools in all my affairs and trying to help others help themselves... :) I am finding serenity now where there was none. The power of acceptance brings peace....
__________________
-youfoundme
Let go and let God...Let it be... let it begin with me...
To work the steps I got to face to face meetings to start things off. I made it my first priority to go, even if I didn't want to as that was when I needed it. I got a sponsor within my first two months. Until I had my sponsor I had a temp sponsor. A sponsor
I used my list of group member numbers well. I called people all the time and reached out daily to people.
I bought a daily reader "One day at a time" and the Al-anon big book (The blue one). I also found the beige book "Paths to Recovery" to be very helpful due to the questions in the back.
I go to XA speakers and download lots of Al-anon speakers from there and listen to them all the time when I can't be reading. I find that very helpful. If I don't I slip back into my habitual way of thinking that really helps me to get my program better.
Your sponsor will be the most useful tool for your journey. Mine is for me and when I just can't see another way of thinking about a situation, she brings me ideas that seem so obvious, except to me before I speak with her. :)
TO JEN--it is very good to hear from someone who has been on the "other" side. My son, too, is very stubborn; it is extremely painful for a mother to watch their child make bad choice, after bad choice, continually heading in a downward spiral.
Could you explain further what you mean by "I wish my mom had chosen more involvement and to gain knowledge in this part of my journey so that my decisions and lifestyle were better understood and shared." How would your mom be involved and what would help her (obviously Al-Non) to understand your decisions and lifestyle? I'm obviously a long way from understanding . . .
To CLEP--I appreciate all the wonderful references that you listed. I will definitely check them out. When facing a crisis, I find reading to be the most helpful.
I've been to four Al-Anon meetings and all the people were extremely welcoming, understanding and invited me back. However, with respect, every meeting had the same format. Each person, except for a couple of members, would detail what an awful week they had. And the group would respond, "thank you" to each participant and continue on to the next. The meetings just depressed me more because I did not see any hope for the participants, or my own situation, nor did I hear about any coping (work-the-program) skills.
Part of the 'work the program' skills is actually just the act of going to the meeting and speaking freely - of the good, bad, and otherwise..... Many of us struggle - somewhat pre-Al-Anon - to actually say out loud what we are going through, so that very ability to speak of what is going on, is "part" of our recovery, and the solution....
I think, in time, you will find that at meetings, you will hear a wide variety - just as you will read on here.... you will hear and see people at all different spots in their recoveries.....
some will be at the 'poor me' (pity party) stage.....
some will be at the "I hate my A" (anger) stage...
some will be at the "this will never get better" (distraught) stage....
some will be at the "I am starting to get this" (recovery) stage....
some will be at the "I figured this out a long time ago, and now will teach you all what I know" (I am God) stage.....
some will be at the "I want to continue to learn" (humility) stage....
The reality is that there will be people at all these stages, and probably several more..... the great thing about our program is that it is one of ultimate support and love, regardless of where you happen to be on your journey of recovery...
Hope that helps
Tom
__________________
"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
When I started going to my meetings I went to a couple of weeks of different meetings. I went to about 15 in total to decide where I would feel most comfortable with going on a regular basis.
The first meeting I went to was wonderful. The members were long standing, touched briefly on challenges they were facing, but mostly on what they saw as solutions for those issues. They followed Al-anon format, were inviting, knowledgeable and above all very patient with my know it all attitude. We refer often to CAL (Conference approved litterature) and keep topics on steps, traditions and concepts of Al-anon. We only have "open" topic once every four weeks, so that aids in the topic being of that regarding self awareness. It is also helpful that who ever has the time goes for coffee after our meetings and we have a nice time to chat and really share our esh regarding our current challenges.
I was not as impressed with the other meetings I went to. Most of them were good, just not as good as my home group.
To TOM: Your listing of Different Spots of Recovery really made me smile, particularly the "I am God" stage. The "spot" listing and descriptions are actually very helpful. Coming into an Al-Anon group, I tend to see everyone, for the most part, at the same "spot" or a step ahead or behind. As you point out, each person in a group can be at a different spot in his or her recovery on any given meeting date, and there can be a wide range of recovery stages.
CLEP: 15 meetings--I'm only up to four and that is in a year's time! I'm going to have to step up my itinerary.
PrincessPeriwinkle wrote:Could you explain further what you mean by "I wish my mom had chosen more involvement and to gain knowledge in this part of my journey so that my decisions and lifestyle were better understood and shared." How would your mom be involved and what would help her (obviously Al-Non) to understand your decisions and lifestyle?
Hello Princess,
My mom and I have many overlapping ties in life. not only is she my mom, of course, but we have also co-owned a business for 20 years and now as my grandmother and extended family are getting older we have many decisions and topics to find agreement on that have large areas for potential differences of opinions. I am extremely grateful for our unique relationship and both of our abilities to switch from mother/daughter, business partners and tag team at a moments notice.
During the worst years of living closely with my exAH in active addiction I made decisions that affected my mom in many ways. From the pain of watching her daughter struggle. To the confusion of being a business partner who did not know if she should call the police when my exAH was stealing from our business. To the manipulations he employed to gain whatever he needed from her at any time based on her love having known him since he was 12 years old. I do understand some of the pain she went through and how she was affected by addiction and know that some of her pain I will never truly understand.
When I hit my bottom and had nowhere to go but through the doors of AlAnon and work the program I was also having health issues and my mom carried me just as i had done for her in the past when life issues made it necessary. But in doing this her focus was on getting through, mine was on healing. Now years later when I am practicing my tools in all my affairs ... which include family, business, extended family it can be difficult at times to explain how I am detaching and practicing Letting Go, using How Important Is It instead of allowing the reflex reactions to triggers take over. I can see how each of us were changed by the experience of living with and around active addiction. And I wish that my mom had the tools that have helped me to release so much anger, fear, resentment and habits we both picked up during the bad times. I should clarify as well that I have no family who also joined in working the prgram even though every immediate family member was affected in many similar ways.
I think what I really mean is that I wish my mom had chosen to be involved in her own recovery. She was involved in mine and I will always be grateful. It hurts a bit to see a reaction of anger or fear from her towards a situation that I know I have skills to deal with calmly only because I have found them through AlAnon and therapy. Over the years I have loaned her books, suggested meetings or asked her to join me when she has expressed difficulty in dealing with emotions from the past concerning my exAH but she does not feel the need to add it to her life although she is proud of and likes the changes it has brought to mine. On a much simpler level, there is nobody in the world I would rather talk to about virtually any topic or who's thoughts I value more so if I were able to speak with her about how AlAnon touches my life and how I work my program I would be thrilled to have that connection.
LOL I did not really intend to turn this into an epic story Thank you for giving me the opportunity to think on this topic and share.
I am sorry for you and your son. There is no greater feeling of hopelessness as we watch our loved ones make these decisions. I want to thank the reply that stated we have to let go and let them make their own choices. I have a 19 year old son that has a drug and alcohol addiction. He has given us and himself great grief for the past 6 years. He just got out of rehab. He was on ecstacy about a week ago and physically hurt my husband and myself. We told him he could not stay here until his lifestyle changes. He comes to work for his dad (cabinet making) and then leaves. He is staying at a campground in a tent and has a bike for transpo. He has such great potential. College fund setup. How do we deal. I think I will take the advice and work on myself. I already let him know we are here for him if he wants to make a change.. A question though is do I continue to talk to him about the addictions or have I stated all that needs to be said. I also have a girlfriend that consumes a bottle of vodka a day. She lives in another town. We talk 2x a month. She is usually drunk and repeats herself and doesnt remember things. I think that she is drinking and driving? My other friend and I are at a loss as to what to do?
What helped me when I was new I was going to 5 meetings a week to get some relief from living in an active alcoholic situation. For me going to the meeting gave me a chance to have one hour of my day in a peaceful place, almost like a time out for adults if you will. Those thoughts of what is going to happen, when is the next shoe going to drop were ever so pervasive in my head. Being willing to learn something new, do something different, going to Alanon to get a different result gradually began changing my life. Also, working the steps with a face to face sponsor who guides you through them was critical for me to gain a new perspective in my life. Alanon is a We program, we cannot do it on our own. Reaching out and asking someone to sponsor me was a big step for me in humility.
Tom thank you for your insightful contribution. I really chuckled when I read the stages of recovery. You have given me much fodder to think about today.
I'm basically in your son's situation. (I think) I too was doing good in life until I met my AGF. Then everything went to crap! Everything! I've been doing al anon about a month now. Everyone in the world close to your son, including your son. Knows he is in a horrible situation. Everyone probably asked him all time what the heck is he doing with her. He probably asked himself everyday with no answer. I know I don't have an answer. You see, I've been with my AGF for two years plus. I never for one minute wanted to be with her. Yeah. It's two years later. Really! What's wrong with me. And she's only a girlfriend. Imagine how much harder it would be being married to her. So maybe your sons alot like me. Maybe he want's more than anything to be out of his situation. No matter how many people tell him, and no matter how many times he tells himself. For some reason unknown. He just cant find it in him to do what he really wants to do. I know I can't. Just a thought.
To ONEwholovesrock: WOW! You seem to be exactly in my son's position, describing the situation to a "T." At least you are going to Al-Anon. And, you are right: A two-year girlfriend relationship would seem to be easier to leave than a six-year marriage.
If you thought about it really, really hard, could you come up with any answers as to why you are staying in a relationship that is unfulfilling most of the time, not to mention detrimental to your livelihood? Or why you can't leave (money, children, habitat)? Or, what is the worse that could/would happen if you left? I certainly do not mean to be disrespectful, just trying to understand. If someone mistreats me mentally or physically, I'm out of here. As the Gloria Gaynor song goes, "I Can Survive."
Thank you very much for having the courage to share your side of the equation. It is very insightful.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to think on this topic and share.