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Ok,I will just type it out and not think too much or over complicate my confusion. I don't know if this will make much sense given my brain today.
For those in relationship with a drinker who is also verbally mean, critical, and dismissive, does it represent a double whammy? Does anyone else fantasize about that it would feel like to be in a relationship with a drinker who doesn't say mean things? (What point this would be I have not idea since it's not my reality...yet I think about it alot.)
My AH is in the "functional" drinking category with heavier monthly or so episodic drinking on vacations/parties/concerts He says mean things whether he's been drinking or not. We are definitely having less verbal episodes since I've been dropping the rope but any amount is intolerable to me after suffering through this for 15 years. I told a friend that I have more trouble with what comes our of his mouth versus what he puts in it. I know that this isn't entirely true...but yet I say it.
He has never gone to AA and I don't see any interest on his part at this time. But, if he ever did abstain from alchohol I would still potentially be in a relationship with someone who calls names etc unless he was able to stop doing that too. I think I'm realizing I will need change to happen in order to stay in this marriage. I think I'm just feeling hopeless.
I dread the energy that it will take to get out of this marriage because I started Alanon when I was exhausted and I'm still exhausted. Maybe I just need more recovery under my belt before I ponder the big decision. My sponser has said to work the steps through or be in the program for a year before making decisions. That's about 4 months away.
Did I even have a question? :) Obviously I am in need of a meeting/call to my sponsor but I appreciate any insights.
Aloha Green... "He says mean things whether he's been drinking or not."
There is no such thing as a "functional" alcoholic. Being under the influence of alcohol in any manner; mind, body, spirit and emotions is "non-functional". Alcoholism is a "man made" disaster and not natural to a person. If he is not behaving in a self and other supportive manner he is "non-functional". Of course that applies to us also.
Thanks for you wisdom, Jerry. This makes sense and lets me know I'm putting the focus on him today in my mind. I realized I'm avoiding paperwork that I need to do and I'm fretting over things in my mind instead of taking care of what's in front of me. Putting down the Rubik's cube now... :)
I know your pain. They say things that are sometimes so painful or dismissive and though you try not to dwell on those words they keep coming back.
I'm also in the process of making the decision to stay or go. The marriage councilor has been so helpful and the folks here are a great support. I hope you find some peace for yourself and happiness in your decision.
I don't think that being mean and being an alcoholic are necessarily related. I mean, sure, some people are not very nice when intoxicated. But there are plenty of people that are just not nice people - drunk or not. My exAH was like that. The alcohol just made him more impulsive and more likely to get in trouble. He was a binge drinker and there were periods where he'd be sober for a while - but sober did not equal nice.
Eventually, I decided that I did not deserve to have anyone's finger shaking at me, have anyone rolling their eyes at me (a sign of contempt), have my feelings invalidated, or put me down. I don't deserve that whether the other person is drunk or sober. Period. Unfortunately, my exAH would not respect the boundary with respect to how I deserve to be treated. As a result, I made choices that did not involve continuing to be in a relationship with him.
I'm not advocating leaving or staying in your situation. I'm just saying that nobody deserves to be put down, treated dismissively, criticized in a mean and not constructive way, etc. It doesn't matter whether the other person is drunk or not - the behavior is unacceptable. It is up to us to teach other people how to treat us. When we've had enough, we can make changes. Nothing changes if nothing changes.
Thanks Lindsayglu. It is so hard! I'm pretty conditioned to it but Alanon is bringing about change for me. But...my thought right now is...if I'm really benefiting from the program wouldn't that mean I'd leave the addict rather than choosing to stay? Even if I'm happier I'm still married to an alcoholic and continuing to have more interaction than if we didn't live under one roof. It's complicated and I know we need to come up with the answer ourselves. I know that this time is not wasted if I keep the focus on me.
The focus of the program is not on leaving the addict. It is on learning that we can choose to be happy regardless of whether someone else drinks or doesn't. We benefit from the program by changing our thought process and changing our old ideas about what we can control.
I am remarried to an alcoholic that has about 2.5 years sober. Before him, I was married to an alcoholic that didn't get sober during our marriage. Don't know if he's sober now, and it's not my business. When my AH relapsed 3 years ago, I thought about leaving. My sponsor pointed out that if I left him but still didn't change me, nothing would really have changed. I'd likely find myself back in the same situation with someone else. That's what happened in my first marriage ... I left, but I didn't change anything about myself. So I married another addict and the same crazy junk happened.
The program is about getting rid of the crazy junk, not about getting rid of the addict. :)
Thanks for your ESH. I'm printing it out and reading the words. Now that I'm learning how to drop the rope maybe it will give me the strength to leave once I am out of it. I spent years saying mean things back and that kept me in the loop of craziness. We spent years in counseling doing the "he said", "she said" business because I was right in there with him. Except that now I am choosing to do things differently for myself and my life is changing.
I am distancing myself from him and that may not look like healthy detachment but it seems to be the only way I can keep to my day to day practice of non-reactivity. He is a master of getting a rise out of me. He knows my buttons and he installed some of them. But, if I keep a separateness it really is getting easier and easier. We have two kids and this means going on less trips/vacations etc. We really are living separate lives under one roof at this point.
Anyway, as I learn to Let Go and Let God I can only hope to clarity will come my way of What, Where and When!
"The focus of the program is not on leaving the addict. It is on learning that we can choose to be happy regardless of whether someone else drinks or doesn't. We benefit from the program by changing our thought process and changing our old ideas about what we can control."
I get this conceptually but I have no idea who it breaks down in a day by day household. So many minutes, hours and days to overlook his snips and snipes. I have had many more moments of happiness since Alanon so I am experiencing that but a girl can only take so much! I can't relax around the man or even fathom a physicial relationship so what's in it for me? But, I have dropped the idea of finding it with someone else and I am keeping the focus on me much better than ever in my life. If I think of this as an experience of self-love, and self-care than it seems tolerable but am I selling myself short for what life could bring if I wasn't married to this man?
GreenK - I can sure relate to what you are saying. My AH and I have had some wing-dinger fights where we just up the ante on each other with the hurtful comebacks. I always remember what HE said, but not so much what I said. It can be hard to let go of those hurtful words, but I have to take responsibility for my role in it. I would say too, it's important to know that the words are coming from a hurting person who doesn't know how better to respond. I am learning to look behind them at what might be the motive or reason for them. We too seem to live under the same roof in seperateness at times, but there are actually some times of closeness coming back . I think it has to do with the willingness to be vulnerable with each other. I think it will take a long long time for me to feel safe with my AH, but through F2F meetings, studying and this board, I am learning how I can set boundaries without leaving the marriage. Believe me, I've spent 34 years trying to figure out how I couldl get out of it, and now I see that I have other options too, like setting boundaries, controlling my own behavior and focusing on me. The way I look at it, if I don't fix the bad habits I have, I'll just take them somewhere else and repeat the same pattern. And if I work on me, than I am in a better place whether I stay or not. Hang in there.
Hello Green - I clean house for an older guy whose wife was an alcoholic up until the day she died, (not an alcohol related death). He just accepted her the way she was I guess. Could I do that? It would depend on how the alcoholism manifested itself in him - he (my A) is an angry man, anger always bubbling under the surface waiting to spurt out - I, of course, didn't see it when I married him and it was compounded by unemployment and heavier drinking from noon on, most days. He is/was horribly verbally abusive and my daughter and I are still recovering from the affect he had on our lives. IF he had been one of those that could live in his drunken world without needing to draw me into a battle and then fight as dirty as needed to "win", I think I could have used Al-anon and the 12 steps and all the great literature's advice and tips to achieve a fairly peaceful co-existence. I understand now that he can't be that kind of A. I don't want to and shouldn't HAVE to put up with being mistreated. No one yells at me in my life anymore - I don't think a life with him would have ever been peaceful because he seems to thrive on chaotic melodrama - egads that was a tiring 3 years!
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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
...I don't want to and shouldn't HAVE to put up with being mistreated. No one yells at me in my life anymore - I don't think a life with him would have ever been peaceful because he seems to thrive on chaotic melodrama - egads that was a tiring 3 years!
Thanks for sharing. It IS exhausting! I still have doubts about what I'm contributing and is he as bad as I make him out to be in my mind. The entanglement for 14 years has put me in a state of confusion. I know the program will continue to bring me clarity as I work it. Then I can make the decisions I need to make for myself and kids. I also feel the sickness of my own cul de sac where partying and drinking is part of socializing. He's in pretty good company and I'm in the minority. I am widening my circle and slowly but surely digging myself out of this mess.
My A has been gone for almost 10 months and its been peaceful - if you were to throw me into the middle of one of our fights I'd leave fast! But while you are in them, you begin to feel they are normal and you don't really see how abnormal they are! I once stumbled upon the movie "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe?" and was horrified at how truly awful the main character was, how abusive she was and the people she abused just took it like they had to. Why wouldn't they leave? Now I understand, because they are caught up in it and believe its the norm.
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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
It's true that Al-Anon teaches us to be happy and take care of ourselves whether or not the alcoholic is drinking. I don't think that necessarily means we have to put up with verbal abuse. In fact, I'd say that verbal abuse is a separate issue. Incidentally, my AH was rarely verbally abusive. For a six-month period of drinking, he might be verbally abusive twice, when we got into a fight. So it doesn't need to go hand-in-hand with drinking. The rest of the time drinking even makes him mellower and friendlier. I believe part of why he drinks is that it does make him feel friendlier to the world. It's just a shame that it comes along with passing out, DUI's, liver damage, and all the rest...
Anyway, I don't think anyone gets a pass on verbal abuse just because they're a drinker. Figuring out how to deal with it is its own mountain. It can corrode a relationship all on its own.
I did know a couple who seemed to handle it. The woman (who was not an alcoholic) would direct a continuous stream of abuse at her husband. "What are you doing, you idiot, put on your turn signal, are you blind, I don't know why I put up with you, you don't have brains enough to wipe your own butt, why would I let a moron like you drive ... " and on and on and on and on. He let it roll off him like water off a duck's back. He never set a nasty word in return. I can tell you, though, that the rest of us dreaded being around her. I would feel like I'd been blasted by a shower of s***. I don't know how he did it, or if he did it without damage to his mental health. I couldn't have stood it for two days. I don't know what the moral of this is, unfortunately.
It's true that Al-Anon teaches us to be happy and take care of ourselves whether or not the alcoholic is drinking. I don't think that necessarily means we have to put up with verbal abuse. In fact, I'd say that verbal abuse is a separate issue.
Thanks for that Mattie. I feel that it has had a separate corrosive effect on our relationshp and that it is a separate issue. Thanks for helping me to articulate it that way. It feels similar in that it's something that I have NO control over whatsoever. He can say whatever he wants and I can't do a darn thing about it. But, what he ways is directly flung at my personhood and it hurts my spirit. Less now than before but I believe the damage is done.
He would really need to feel it down to his core and I would need to see that he gets it in order to forgive and move on. I think the chance of that happening to a man in his 50's who is pretty ensconced in his ways is slim to none. The reality is sinking in because I am able to have the courage to face what is thanks to Alanon.
Dear Greenk, Just because it is said that alanon does not focus on leaving the the addict---It IS true that alanon doesn't----doesn't mean that you have an obligation to stay, either.
When it is said that you can be happy and joyful whether your A is active or not---I take that to mean that you can choose to stay if you want, BUT , also, leave if it is what you want to or need to in order to be happy---whether he drinks or not.
Personally, I do not believe that a toxic environment caused by verbal abuse (or anything else) is in anyone's best interest. Constant verbal assaults erodes the spirit and self=esteem.
I also feel very strongly that children growing up in a household characterized by verbal abuse between their parents will have scars that they carry into their own adult lives. Even when they don't "hear" all of it directly, the tension that it causes between the parents is FELT----and this also has a negative effect on them. Children are always aware of more than we give them credit for. Talking to multitudes of people who grew up in an alcoholic home convinces me of this.
GreenK, you are the only one in charge of your own happiness---regardless of what anyone or any organization says. The buck still stops with you. You are the only one that lives in your skin.
I think that after 15yrs. one has had opportunity to ascess the realities of a relationship.
I have been in your shoes and had to make the decision to leave an emotionally damaging marriage (with 3 kids). It was the best thing for me and the children. He never did change---even several decades later. It felt like leaving a prison. I never did enter into a relationship where I was treated poorly, ever again. As I said, that was decades ago!
It is my general observation about myself, and others, that the more one grows in self-esteem and confidence, the less tolerant we become of being mistreated.
GreenK, these are my observations and my personal story.
In support, Otie
-- Edited by Otie on Thursday 18th of August 2011 09:12:50 AM
-- Edited by Otie on Thursday 18th of August 2011 09:14:45 AM
-- Edited by Otie on Thursday 18th of August 2011 09:25:51 AM
I appreciate your sharing so much. Very sobering words from someone who has been in it and gotten out of it. I'm grateful for this forum and the support that is available!
Sorry for chiming in late, but the time difference and all... and ihave been busy at work.
I can't add to what has been said in the essence of your dilema, great words there.. I would like to make an observation about Al Anon
I like the idea that Al Anon is not about leaving the A, It makes me feel ok about staying and not that I have let the sisterhood down by taking this... However.. what era was this program created? Divorce was a nasty and illmoral concept in the 1930's. Did not really become OK until the 80's I say. Here in Australia, that police would not even intervene in domestic violence until the 90's or late 80's because it was a 'domestic dispute'.
Leaving a person due to abuse is now an acceptable thing to do. Al Anon helps you if you want to leave and if you want to stay.
My particular situation is not abusive, but it has been in the past. I have always left because HE was abusive.... I now wish I had gone tothe greener grass ont he other side, but knew how to leave the weed killer behind. I took the weed killer wiht me and now I am here, learning how to dilute that poison. Then I will decide if I want to stay or go.
I understand the change has to happen with me. I found that the phrase' didn't cause it and can't control' it was a profound one for me. Just a nice little mantra.
But there are certainly valid reasons for leaving. If he worked more than 10-15 hours a week we could have our mortgage paid off, and I could imagine a retirement one day. If he didn't drink when I'm traveling I'd call and check in more with him but I don't want to call in the evening and deal with a drunk. If he didn't drink maybe he'd remember to buy the birthday cake for the surprise party given by my friends. Maybe he wouldn't binge and get involved in the porn and all the other women. Yeah you can't ignore the positive aspects of getting them out of your life.
