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Ok, I'm a relatively new member but I can honestly say that Alanon is changing and saving my life. I don't want to see meetings fall apart that could help others in need. I'm talking about hierarchial pyramid-style sponsorships, snubbing members, "grand" sponsors, (the WSO has said there is no such thing) and attempts to blend the AA program with the Alanon program by recommending that Alanoners read the AA big book. (I'm pretty sure we have pretty different sets of personality traits, at least from my observation.)
I know I'm going out on a limb here but I've witnessed all of these things at different meetings that I've gone to. Yes, I could avoid the ones that seem to be the biggest offenders but is that really the answer? I was a people pleaser for many years and I'm not interested in feeding this character defect by looking the other way. This program means enough to me that I want to do everything to keep my will and my ego from attempting to change anything about it. My wish is to conform my imperfect self to this perfect program. Principles above personalities.
In case I haven't gone out on a limb enough, my own personal observation is that it's the individuals who are working both programs, AA first, then Alanon and perhaps other 12 step programs, who seem to bring the most ego/self agenda into the room.
Bringing a level of humility and humbleness into each meeting seems to create just the right atmosphere between seasoned alanoners and newbies. I'm sure that the longer a person is in the program it must be challenging to bring a "fresh self" to each meeting but it's something worthy to strive for.
Hey I have thoughts based on listening to my parents talk about this while I was living at home and they attended meetings. They said the same thing.
I remember one of them saying... well, we are all sick, and heal at different rates. You are sitting in a room of people who really understand how to be dysfunctional (no offence intended, I would be one of them), just because they have been going to Al Anon for a long time doesn't mean they have been working the program for a long time. All this I remember from discussions in my household, so please remember they are based on the memories of a child.
My Dad stopped going for about 10 to 15 years, I am not sure exactly (he started in 1979). He used online forums I believe. He has recently started going again and can see the same traits begin to unfold in the meetings. My Mum never returned to Al Anon after about 10 years of attending (she also started in 1979).
Ithink is the sort of situation where the slogan "Take what you like and leave the rest" really has to be employed.
That's why we say "Take what you like and leave the rest" when it comes to people sharing
Taking other peoples inventories and thinking I knew how they should behave and what was best for them was actually the behavior that landed me in Alanon, I found taking others peoples inventory is a gesture in futility that never fails to leave me with a resentment and a bitter taste in my mouth
Working on my own inventory makes me feel better, after working the steps myself, and after repeated 10th steps I begin to perceive others differently, if they have "big ego's" they feel "less then" and are over-compensating, if they lie, it's because they are afraid to tell the truth, if they are passive aggressive, it's because they are afraid and unable to tell the truth in a mature manner, I found -in me- my character defects actually invariably rise from some sort of fear, and when I recognize that in myself, I begin to recognize it in others, when I begin to forgive myself, I begin to forgive others, also the very character defects that bother in me in others, are the ones that bother me in myself
You state you are new, I would suggest taking your own inventory with a sponsor (steps 1-9) then coming back and re-examining your feelings, I suspect they may be different
I get better when I take my own inventory, sicker when I take other people's inventories without fail, I am not saying I don't do it still, I am saying -when- I do it makes me sick
I have found the people who bothered me the most became my greatest teachers
But then I am AA then Alanon and CODA, so take what you like and leave the rest
I can see where you are coming from. I know that there seems to be specific people that are asked to sponsor others over and over again, where people who could do a lot of good are overlooked. While we share similarities to AA there is a distinct difference in what the issues are, although some are "double winners" in that regard. I don't think there is anything wrong with reading through the AA books, some of the things I've heard regarding the step 4 the long timers in our group (10+ years or more) actually prefer the way AA is laid out vs the Alanon program. It's not pushed it's merely suggested.
Personally, I just really focus on the positive of what I get out of the meetings and not the negative aspects of the meetings. I've been to meetings where I was frustrated and I didn't feel like it was a good meeting that night. Sometimes I can see I had a totally different agenda going on and I was frustrated that they didn't get to that point of the meeting.
I guess to I'm really trying to look at my part in things that I'm having issues with, maybe 95% is that someone else is "wrong" it's not the 95% that I'm worried about it's the 5% that is my part. I have no idea if that makes any sense or not? I guess what I'm trying to say is sometimes it's me and it has nothing to do with what is or isn't happening at a meeting that night. I'm choosing to focus on things that aren't really important to my own healing.
That's totally my two cents not meant to offend just offer up what is working for me when it comes to meetings. We are all very different with similar issues and of course there will be personalities from time to time that don't get along. It just is going to be what it is, if I had that issue at this point I would avoid the meetings that caused me the greatest discomfort until I could figure out what was going on with me and work on that part. I try to also remember that maybe there is a newcomer or maybe even a long timer who will benefit from something I have to say and there is a reason I need to continue to go and participate. :)
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
I don't really have any suggestions, but I do like the meetings that I go to. We have these meetings for newcomers that are called How Alanon Works meetings and we go through a whole scripted hour of readings and sharing. The beginning of the hour includes reading of the Alanon principles and traditions along with the 12 steps. There's a rotating group leader and we distribute the readings out throughout the group. I think this lays out a wonderful framework and reminder for everyone, it also reduces the likelihood of things going haywire. The greatest healing for the greatest number... and principles above personalities, lots of wonderful ground rules. Might not be for everyone, but I think it's been helpful for me to attend these even for a few months as a newcomer to really GET the program, and it keeps us all on track.
Also, I have also heard the recommendation to read the AA blue book. Honestly, I'd like to but haven't yet. I can stand to learn as much as possible right now!
Good luck! Maybe there are some other meetings you could try in your area? Or, maybe like others have suggested, these are all learning opportunities... We're all "building character" right? (heehee)
Thanks for the responses! I hear you about "take what you will and leave the rest". At the same time I think that the structure of the program has everything in place through the principles and to pull us back to center when things get too loose. I was at a meeting where someone said that the sharing was getting getting off track (discussing careers, the qualifier, referring to religious affiliation etc) and the way he did it felt fine. I think there are times to overlook and times we can keep each other in check for the benefit of the group.
I don't think I'm honing in on any one individual. There is something I've heard of called a "Group Inventory" that individuals of a group can bring in from a third party Alanoner to help clean up the "behaviors" that are influencing the groups success. I am noticing a trend at our club on my own and am also learning from my sponser about what makes a meeting a great meeting and what makes a meeitng so-so. I think this is helpful to my growth and for having a voice at the meetings.
I would recommend going to the group conscious aka business meeting on a regular basis and put this issue as a topic to be discussed. State your case, vote on it, then let it go.
Not sure I understand why neither you nor the WSO thinks there is no such thing as a "grand sponsor". A grandsponsor is just my sponsor's sponsor and is just a part of the sponsorship system. If I ask a question or have an issue I am discussing with my sponsor, my sponsor sometimes turns to their sponsor, my "grandsponsor" for help.
As to suggesting reading the AA Big Book to Al-Anon members, Al-Anon's own literature states that we found it helpful to read the big book of alcoholic's anonymous, in the book "The Al-Anon Family Groups". I am not a double winner and the big book was the first book I read and found it extremely helpful....and I identified with many, many of the personality traits of the alcoholic.
I suffer from Alcoholism the Family Disease. As such I personally I don't have a "drinking problem", but I definately have a "thinking problem".
You have recieved some great replies.
I have found that the number one thing that makes any meeting I have ever attended be a "great" meeting is an attitude of openmindedness. I have sat in all kinds of meetings. Some very strict following Al-Anon's meeting guidelines and some very informal meetings. Both are beneficial to me if I am willing to sit with an open mind, accept that the meeting is what it is supposed to be and listen to what is being shared instead of worrying how it is being shared or how the meeting is run. Those issues can be brought up at business meetings if I feel the need. Meantime, just for today, when I am sitting in a meeting, I want to get the most out of it I can by being open minded and accepting.
I too want to keep Al-Anon, Al-Anon. I want to see that it is not diluted for future members. But I also have to be aware that the spirit of Al-Anon is as big as its membership.
That's why we say "Take what you like and leave the rest" when it comes to people sharing
Taking other peoples inventories and thinking I knew how they should behave and what was best for them was actually the behavior that landed me in Alanon, I found taking others peoples inventory is a gesture in futility that never fails to leave me with a resentment and a bitter taste in my mouth
Working on my own inventory makes me feel better, after working the steps myself, and after repeated 10th steps I begin to perceive others differently, if they have "big ego's" they feel "less then" and are over-compensating, if they lie, it's because they are afraid to tell the truth, if they are passive aggressive, it's because they are afraid and unable to tell the truth in a mature manner, I found -in me- my character defects actually invariably rise from some sort of fear, and when I recognize that in myself, I begin to recognize it in others, when I begin to forgive myself, I begin to forgive others, also the very character defects that bother in me in others, are the ones that bother me in myself
You state you are new, I would suggest taking your own inventory with a sponsor (steps 1-9) then coming back and re-examining your feelings, I suspect they may be different
I get better when I take my own inventory, sicker when I take other people's inventories without fail, I am not saying I don't do it still, I am saying -when- I do it makes me sick
I have found the people who bothered me the most became my greatest teachers
I find all the above very true for me. This pretty much sums it up nicely for me (what the program is capable of doing for an indidivual if he/she works it).
I want to add that I have not worked on the steps yet. I have discovered the above through many hours of contemplation over the years; once I began Al-Anon, going on a little over 5 months, all these (truths) began to solidify. I do plan to work the steps, however, hopefully soon.
-- Edited by GailMichelle on Monday 15th of August 2011 08:48:48 AM
-- Edited by GailMichelle on Monday 15th of August 2011 08:49:32 AM
__________________
You have to go through the darkness to truly know the light. Lama Surya Das
Resentment is like taking poison & waiting for the other person to die. Malachy McCourt
Thanks for the responses! I hear you about "take what you will and leave the rest". At the same time I think that the structure of the program has everything in place through the principles and to pull us back to center when things get too loose. I was at a meeting where someone said that the sharing was getting getting off track (discussing careers, the qualifier, referring to religious affiliation etc) and the way he did it felt fine. I think there are times to overlook and times we can keep each other in check for the benefit of the group.
I don't think I'm honing in on any one individual. There is something I've heard of called a "Group Inventory" that individuals of a group can bring in from a third party Alanoner to help clean up the "behaviors" that are influencing the groups success. I am noticing a trend at our club on my own and am also learning from my sponser about what makes a meeting a great meeting and what makes a meeitng so-so. I think this is helpful to my growth and for having a voice at the meetings.
this is just for me, and...maybe my sponsees, but in recovery we put the oxygen mask on ourselves, and work our own inventory and work our own steps before we charge in and start taking the groups inventory and working the groups steps for them, otherwise we are doing nothing but giving an opinion about an experience we have never had, it behooves me to learn how to fly my own plane before I start telling other people how to fly theirs, I don't go to flight school and start telling the teachers how to fly a plane if I have never flown one myself, I learn what they have to teach (The Steps) and then learn the structure of the school (The Traditions) and then become a teacher myself, in which case after doing recovery for a few decades and I have found there is always one newcomer that knows more about how things "should be run" before working the steps and studying the traditions and sponsoring others then anyone else in the room, I recognize them, because I -was- them 20 years ago, thankfully I had strong sponsorship that taught me I there to learn before I taught, that taught me to crawl before I could walk, walk before I run, and run before I fly
when working with my sponsee's that are new I encourage them to listen to other newcomers come in and try to "run the show" before they start doing it, and after a few weeks I ask them "do you -really- want to be that person? because if you do, go to it, but my experience says you will go "ooof! oh my GOD, why didn't someone tell me to shut up???
There is a story the Buddha told about a family of acrobats that came to him about what was the best way to safeguard and care for each other, the grandfather put forth the idea that they should safeguard each other, that he should care for his granddaughter, and she should watch out for him, his grandaughter asked the Buddha if that was not backwards? "Wouldn't it be better if we cared for ourselves, and in that way, from a place of health, naturally safeguard each other as the result of health, and in that way our acrobatics prosper?"
After listening to the little girl the Buddha replied, Although she is young, she is wise, if you as a grandfather guard yourself with care and -pay attention- to what -you- do, and not her, you will also guard the safety of your grandaughter, and if you, as a child, guard yourself with awareness, with love, with respect, then you will naturally guard both yourself and those around you"
I am here to change myself, to stop trying to control others and tell them how to live, -that is why I am here-, I am here to put the oxygen mask on myself before attempting to put it on others
The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of thinking with which we created them.
Albert Einstein
It behooved me to let the Program change me before I started trying to change it, trying to change and control how other people behave and how sick I got as the result of that is why I came to Alanon in the first place
just an idea?
-- Edited by linbaba on Monday 15th of August 2011 11:24:36 AM
This always bugged me too, and yes, my perception was the same as yours.
We have one meeting by me that responds to anyone coming into an AlAnon meeting and say they are a dual member by yelling as one, "We Don't Care". And they don't care. One program is not the same as the other.
I personally read the BB from one end to the other simply for education. At first when I was reading it I thought, "they can't be serious!" and "how can anyone be that messed up to think that!". But that was my own ego that I had to get over. And I had to believe that this all applied to my hubby (who I had elevated on a very high pedestal).
When I hear these shenanigans from anyone, whether from AAer's or AlAnoner's, I get real honest and let them all know how I interpret the program and I never let hurting someone else's ego get in my way. As long as I am telling the truth as I see it and am not worried about the fallout from someone else, I let 'er rip.
Actually, bringing another 12 step meeting into an AlAnon meeting is in defiance of our third tradition where we bring no other affiliation/alliance into our meetings. And AA is not AlAnon. And AlAnon is not AA.
-- Edited by maryjane on Monday 15th of August 2011 02:09:53 PM
-- Edited by maryjane on Monday 15th of August 2011 03:46:26 PM
My thoughts and feelings regarding Alanon meetings have changed over the years. I remember sometimes leaving some groups feeling disturbed. So, I stopped attending Alanon, only to return years later. (I've considered an aka of 'late bloomer' instead of 'bud'... )
I agree with the other responses. People enter the rooms at a different place in their recovery. It is possible that on a given day or time that a particular room has more 'sickness' than others. As I focus on myself, I can find a launch point of healing here, too. I can find at least one golden nugget to take away as well as the wonderful feeling of walking into a room and knowing everyone understands me.
There have been a few meetings that I've attended where a few monopolized the hour on a regular basis. I found other groups that were lead more inclusively. Had I not found them, it would have been possible to bring this up in a business meeting.
Reading the BB and attending AA meetings along with Alanon has enriched my spirituality and 12 step program with tremendous synergy. I now see parallels in both rooms and believe that suffering is universal; this helps me to work the steps at a much deeper level than previously. I know I have to continue to change what I have been doing in order to become true to myself.
In my home group, the AA big book is al-anon conference approved literature. This is done by group, and is voted upon. Although not all parts of the big book are relevant to me, particular parts of it are invaluable.
There is a particular member in my group that is very disturbed by other people in the Alanon meetings introducing themselves as "double winners" or the like. It never occurred to me to be bothered by that, but I do see that it goes against one of our traditions. If you believe it is a problem, you could certainly put it up for discussion at the group conscious. Same thing with pyramid sponsorship ... although I've heard of "grand sponsors," it's not a particular practice that I'm aware of in my home group.
As always, take what you like and leave the rest.
-- Edited by White Rabbit on Tuesday 16th of August 2011 12:45:11 PM
Thanks everyone for taking time to express your thoughts on this topic. I appreciate being able to express my perspective and hearing other's experiences and opinions.
I am benefiting from the structure of the program (working steps, traditions and f2f meetings etc) because like many, I didn't have that growing up. For me, in a meeting context, "take what you like and leave the rest", refers to taking what may be helpful for me when someone shares their feelings, growth or pain. For me it doesn't mean I should overlook behaviors such as snubbing, or dominance in meetings.
I've learned from long-time members how to focus my sharing on myself and how the program is helping me to grow. I didn't do this in the beginning and I appreciate the members who spoke with me after meetings. I've benefitted when another member (usually a long-time Alanoner) will remind us, even after reading the tent cards, to keep the focus on ourselves, and to leave outside interests (work, religion) outside the meeting. It reminds me to bring my best self into that room and that my decisions impact others. (I'm not invisible!)
I've talked with other "newbies" who have been asked to do chores or errands for their sponsors. I know of one woman who was expected to put a visitor (grand-sponsor) up in their home even though she felt awkward about it. I've personally felt snubbed and "freezed out" when I approached someone with a different level of "status". This could happen anywhere where humans congregate of course but the program brings a higher expectation of ourselves.
I have a sponsor with over 25 years of program under her belt and while she is my able "guide" in the program, she has also explained to me more than once that we are a membership of equals. This provides an equal playing field that puts the responsiblity on me to "sit up and fly right" if I want the most from the program. As I'm working the steps and studying the traditions I'm grateful that the program has guidelines in place that will pull me back to center when I'm trying to make the program fit me instead of the other way around.
