"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

oldgraduate · Senior Member

Why do I keep getting sucked in?

White Rabbit · ~*Service Worker*~

As relatives of alcoholics, we are sick too.

I did those crazy behaviors, too - the whole yelling and screaming and trying to get him to admit and trying to make him understand how his actions were hurting our marriage. Thing is, no matter how hard and from what angle I tried, he didn't get it. He didn't admit anything. And the craziest thing was, knowing that he wouldn't admit it and knowing deep down that he wouldn't change because of anything I did or said, I KEPT DOING THOSE THINGS ANYWAY. I know now that insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. That's insane.

I've determined that for me, there is no "getting sucked in." Nobody else can suck me in unless I allow them. When I give someone else the power to make or break me based upon whether they drink/don't drink/act a certain way/don't act some other way/lie/tell the truth/whatever else, I give up my serenity. In the program, I learn that how I feel and whether I am "okay" does not depend on whether anyone else does anything else.

Lying is part and parcel of alcoholism. I've learned not to ask questions to which I already know the answer. Asking an alcoholic "Did you drink?" is a good way to set myself up for resentment because of course the A will lie. A's lie about drinking. Period. They aren't going to suddenly get honest because I ask them to be honest with me. Getting an A to see what their drinking is doing is trying to rationalize with a crazy person. Alcoholism is not rational. If it were possible to stop an A from drinking by explaining the damage that's being caused, there wouldn't BE alcoholism - there wouldn't be AA, there wouldn't be any of this. Point is, explaining will not help.

I learned here that I don't have to attend every fight I am invited to. I learned that I am not my A's HP. I'm not his parole officer, and it's not my job to monitor the alcohol intake of another adult. It doesn't make me happy and it's a completely losing battle anyway - no matter how hard I try, I can't win. Just simply accepting my own powerlessness over the drinking went a long way. Instead of biting the bait, when my A would try to engage me, phrases like, "You might be right," or "Okay," combined with WALKING AWAY really helped. I'm in control of whether I engage. These days, I know that engaging = losing my own serenity. It's not worth it to me.

Hang in, and keep coming back!

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi there.... are you the sick one?? Well, if you are like me, then you bet - this disease definitely made ME sick...

That book you have started - "Getting Them Sober" - literally saved my sanity, and my emotional life.... I would encourage you to read it, perhaps more than once, as I would be shocked if much of it "didn't apply", as it sounds to me like it pretty much all should apply...

Living with active alcoholism is literally "too much" for most of us to do alone - good for you in reaching out, and wanting to break the cycle.... Choosing a program of recovery for YOU, is key...

Tom

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

Hugs OG,

QTIP, I had to stop taking it personally before I started to be able to see my A as being sick. The disease was/is not my AH. As soon as I could see him as two different personalities, him and then the disease it was the only way I could process it. It wasn't not him talking. It does get easier, it's a process of one day at a time and sometimes I couldn't even see that far down the road I went one minute at a time and then started to extend the time out gradually. All I know is as soon as I had the need to control as soon as I felt the need to argue back (jello, I go back to jello .. lol, nail, jello, tree) I had to leave what I was doing and do something else. Even if it meant I stopped in the middle of what I said and walk out.

Co Dependent No More, M Beattie was a biggie for me. I'm currently starting Getting them Sober.

Hugs, P :)

sookie · Senior Member

Hugs OH and you just described my marriage perfectly.

I know I am sick and that Al-Anon is helping me recover. Somewhere along the way the slogans and tools began to work for me--not perfectly all the time, but a lot. I have had to learn not to be hard on myself when I have slips and am back to a red-faced raging psycho. It's A LOT to deal with. I also thought Co-dependent No More was a good read. I just ordered Getting Them Sober Vol 4 about Separation and Healing because after about 4 dozen times of me asking my AH to go (usually as a red-faced raging psycho), he has left. Now what!? Well, I am trying to figure that out. It sure is an adventure...

Keep doing the best you can, reading, and taking the best care of yourself you can. You are worth it.

oldgraduate · Senior Member

White Rabbitt - so true, I don't need to be continuing the INSANE behavior,I hate to think that now he's lying to me about drinking, so I guess I better take your advice and not ask. But Also, I'm the one starting the fights, because I just can't stand it like it is.

Tom- I'm sure the book :Getting them Sober will help. I'm either just not there yet or maybe not ready to hear it. I'm reading Codependent no more too. I just feel like I'm spending all this time trying to learn how to deal with him when it would just be easier to divorce and never have to see him again - ok.. that's unrealistic as we have grown kids together, but I really hate who I am when he's around. I feel crazy and I think he believes I am and that is what is wrong with us. I did so well last week, but the weekends are just so hard because it's just us, no distractions.

Puska - How do you not take is personally? I am so beat down and sensitive that I take everything personally. I feel like little cowering rabbit most of the time. The hurtful things said are so hard to ignore and forget. And even when I tried to explain to him what I need and want, he manipulates my words to suit his agenda and his interpretation of what I said is so off base that I wonder where he is getting his ideas? I wonder sometimes if he is brain damaged from all this, or if he is just making it up to throw me off?

Thanks for the help. I pray it will get easier. I have to remember, I'm not his parole officer, or HP. He said he is happy with me when I am not agitated, or combative. I think he is happy with me when I just want nothing from him and just give in to everything he wants. And I can't do that anymore.

oldgraduate · Senior Member

Sookie - thanks too to you. I just saw you posted as I was writing. I am so glad to know I am not alone. I don't think my AH will leave, But I kind of wish he would and then if he did I would probably be lost. We have a lot of baggage after all these years of marriage and I don't know if it will ever be repaired. I am trying to focus on taking care of me, and pursuing things that will make me better and more secure. It seems like doing those things will only cause him to resent me and be angry and put more animosity between us and I am still questioning whether it's worth it or not. But I guess I've tried everything else, and it's not working. More Insanity!

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

OG,

All I can say about not taking it personally is I just know it's the disease it's not my husband because my husband would never say those things to me if he were truly sober. My A is a dry drunk, so I deal with sober distorted thinking. He starts with the YOU this YOU that YOUR crazy and I automatically know it's distorted thinking. Yes, I have had crazy behavior in the past. Yes, know what the things he says he absolutely has a point. It doesn't bother me anymore because I know I'm not that person anymore. I know what my truth is, he doesn't define me one way or another. He has no more power to validate how I feel about myself.

I wish I could convey to you how I got there because the only thing that got me there was Alanon, reminding me a whole lot of what I paid a lot of money for, the program absolutely works though. I just stopped buying into the what was being sold by my AH.

It's a process. Trust me when I say no one could say something to me this time last year and every defense automatically went up. I was over sensitive and others def defined if I had a good day or a bad day. I just had to stop giving others that kind of power over me.

Hugs, as you heal it will make sense. You are taking steps and it does get better and it does work!! :) P :)

Otie · Senior Member

Dear Oldgraduate, At the risk of incurring the wrath of this board, I do not consider you "Sick". I consider the reactions that are triggered by active alcoholism to be logical reactions of normal people to an abnormal (or dysfunctional/destructive situation).

If a person did NOT feel strong negative reactions to such a situation---I would consider THAT "sick". I do not particularly like negative labeling and beating up on one's self to be helpful at a time when a person's self-esteem is at an all time low.

Having said all this, I do say that how one deals with these reactions is another matter. I feel that they are best dealt with in a way that is in your best interest. To this extent the advised readings and alanon support---and ANY support, wherever you can find it is essential.

The road is too hard to walk alone.

I offer this empathetically in support.

Sincerely, Otie

oldgraduate · Senior Member

Thanks Pushka. That's exactly what I am hearing from AH. And then I start to believe it. I too feel I am not who I was in the past, but I still fall short so many times. I will just have to take your word that is a step by step process and I have to give myself time to work it. I am so thankful to God for all of you here!! Lunch hours coming and instead of going home, I will sit and read my books. And then close my eyes and say a prayer for strength.

oldgraduate · Senior Member

Otie - thank you and no wrath here. I get that we are "reacting" and that it is a human response. I know I am not always doing it in my best interest. That's a great way to put it. I need to ask myself - "is this in my best interest"? I think if I do that I will find that most of the time, it's in my best interest to just be quite and remove myself from the battle. That would be a huge step in the right direction - thanks for the post!

glad lee · ~*Service Worker*~

I didn't seek recovery until my early forties. So, if you are anything like me, you've been practicing those old behaviors for most of your life. Changing myself is not easy (this is helpful for me to remember when I expect more from others, especially the alcoholics in my life) and despite the awareness and my willingness, I simply cannot change overnight. Most unfortunately.... despite all my begging..... my sponsor absolutely insists she has no magic wand. That would be so nice.

I had to do steps 4,5, 6 and 7 which are designed for us to discover our behavior patterns which cause me to suffer.... and then become entirely ready to have them removed, and humbly ask for them to be removed. For me, I've had to hit a rock bottom with some of my "defects" before I was entirely ready. As part of steps 6 and 7, my sponsor taught me that it wasn't necessarily a one-time event, that I could practice my "readiness" and "humbly ask" on a daily basis through prayers and affirmations. My personal prayer book is what grounds me in the morning (along with my meditation time) and prepares me for the day....

Take what you like... ((hugs))

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I see where Otie is going with her thought. At first we are no sick. We are acting in away that of course we would not put up with it. But the trouble is with an A that type reaction does not work.

Unless things change and we keep doing the same thing over and over and over expecting it to change. THAT is sick behavior, it is insanity.

The diseased person after awhile can control us. They are so selfish so sick we can get into taking care of them mode. NOT a healthy nurturing either again sick behavior. We almost cut out everything for us and get lost in the A in our life.

Their disease is their own. It is none of our business. We cannot change it anyway. Whether they use or not is moot.

We either accept them howevery they are. learn the skills thru Al Anon to do this, or we leave or have them leave. Its not fair for anyone to try to change anyone else. People only change if and when they want to.

Or you can keep doing what you are doing and nothing will change.

I know I would not want anyone telling me what to do. Of course his using affects the marriage. But if he played gold too much that can drive us crazy too.

The point is though, we can do NOTHING to change them. We can only change ourselves.

I am telling you after I learned Al Anon skills I was able to have some very good time with my AH. It was precious. Drunk or not did not matter. I loved him. Smell didn't bug me anymore,nothing about it did. But when he got worse and worse I could not live with him anymore, too much brain damage.

Glad you came and let it out. YES Getting them Sober fits. Maybe you just are not ready to hear it! hugs,debilyn

clep · Senior Member

oldgraduate wrote:
White Rabbitt - so true, I don't need to be continuing the INSANE behavior,I hate to think that now he's lying to me about drinking, so I guess I better take your advice and not ask. But Also, I'm the one starting the fights, because I just can't stand it like it is.

Tom- I'm sure the book :Getting them Sober will help. I'm either just not there yet or maybe not ready to hear it. I'm reading Codependent no more too. I just feel like I'm spending all this time trying to learn how to deal with him when it would just be easier to divorce and never have to see him again - ok.. that's unrealistic as we have grown kids together, but I really hate who I am when he's around. I feel crazy and I think he believes I am and that is what is wrong with us. I did so well last week, but the weekends are just so hard because it's just us, no distractions.

Puska - How do you not take is personally? I am so beat down and sensitive that I take everything personally. I feel like little cowering rabbit most of the time. The hurtful things said are so hard to ignore and forget. And even when I tried to explain to him what I need and want, he manipulates my words to suit his agenda and his interpretation of what I said is so off base that I wonder where he is getting his ideas? I wonder sometimes if he is brain damaged from all this, or if he is just making it up to throw me off?

Thanks for the help. I pray it will get easier. I have to remember, I'm not his parole officer, or HP. He said he is happy with me when I am not agitated, or combative. I think he is happy with me when I just want nothing from him and just give in to everything he wants. And I can't do that anymore.

I too have to battle not starting fights lately. I go for quite long periods of practicing my program and doing very well. Then after a few months I have a week or two of just being fed up and living on the edge.

It helps me to remember that the lies come with the disease. It really doesn't matter what my A is lying about and drinking used to be one of those things. I don't take it personally. Lying is a symptom of issues that one has, and those issues have nothing to do with me. I am not the only person he lies to. I don't worry about if he is lying. If he is his own guilt will eat away at him, I don't need to take on that role.

Getting them sober was great for when I was dealing with active alcoholism. Codependent no more was for dealing with a dry drunk, and for deeper subjects than Getting them sober got into. I had to deal with my issues and Codependent was just the book for that. I did not relate much to the other book once my A was dry.

The part I put in bold is how I have felt for the last two weeks. I have just gone through a time where I am sick of it and believe I would be better off without him. Why do I put up with this crap, type of thinking. I so identify with what you wrote there. I decided recently to write down what my perceptions are when I am in a positive frame of mind about staying with my A. I read that often and it helps.

QTIP can be really hard. I know for me I try to remember that his sickness has nothing to do with me. He would be the same with anyone he is with. He doesn't wake in the morning with the intention of hurting me, just as I don't with others. When my A used to rant and rave, I would picture the word "sick"across his forehead. I don't ignore or forget the things I hear, as that for me is not possible. I do remember though that the mind of my A is distorted as long as he is not in active recovery. I can then let it roll off my back.

I don't try to explain to my A my needs or wants most of the time. Only when I am in that two week mode of self torture. :) An A who is not in recovery cannot be there for themselves and certainly not anyone else. I take my needs to my Al-anon group or someone that is emotionally available.

My A is happy with me when I have no boundaries. It has taken quite a while for him to start accepting that I say what I mean and mean what I say. That didn't happen because of him, it happened because of changes in me. It has taken me keeping program in mind and constantly reading etc to make that happen.

You can do it.

tommyecat · ~*Service Worker*~

OlderG,

Sometimes the perspective that helped me was he is not doing "it" to you, he is just doing it. It is part and parcel of the disease of alcoholism.

So many of the fights I experienced with my spouse was when I would J.A.D.E, which is to say, justify, argue, defend and explain myself. I thought I had a dog in this or any fight that would arise. Who would defend me if I wouldnt? But the truth for me always has been there has been nothing settled with anger, rage, defending, or explaining. Just pick a topic, any topic would do. What I have found is that the arguing led to a gradual erosion of whatever remaining relationship I had with the alcoholic.

For me the best thing I have found to do was to keep the focus on myself. A long time member of AA asked me the following question one day after a meeting: How do you know when a tennis match is over? I thought, what a stupid question. To which I replied hmmm, I don't know. She said, when one person stops hitting the ball over the net. Part of my recovery is knowing how important is it? I don't have to participate or engage in arguments. I have choices. I can leave and do something for me. I dont have to accept unacceptable behavior.

Respectfully Yours,

Tommye

oldgraduate · Senior Member

I really appreciate all the responses and am taking them all to heart. thanks.

Lindaoakford · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Debilyn

I was very interested in a couple of lines you said there.

You stopped reacting but it seems you were able to still engage in a good way with your A even if he was drinking. This is news to me. I have always believed that if you thought a behaviour (ie drinking) was unacceptable, then you could not be with them if they were doing that activity. I thought thats what detachment was all about. Removal of ones self from the person during the disliked activity.

Are you saying that you can be detached and still engage in a happy way with the A even if they are physically drinking in your presence???

That woudl be a fantastic skill to practice. I hate the way I act when mine is stoned. I stop talking to him so he knows I find his actions unacceptable. I remove myself and then he feels all sad cos he is stoned adn the rest of the day is ruined becasue I do not want to spend any time with him. I thought that if I engaged happily with him, that gives him a green light to continue and that I am ok with it?????

Im confused but I like that you managed to be detached and happy and able to spend time with him.... HOW do I do that???? You have given me some sort of hope of a 'normal' life while living with an addict

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"