denial? - Al-Anon Family Group

ifa · Veteran Member

denial?

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

"So I wonder if I am just making something out of nothing," Ifa that was one of the very first questions I looked at growing up in program...the me facing me. Today I know that these are the questions I need answers to or else I never get to the know the person who has lived in my skin all my life that I knew nothing about. For me I think this is good question to do some homework on. I did mine this morning...same question...similar thoughts "He ain't getting what I'm trying to show him to get" and then I just stopped. My reaction is only mine and I'm powerless over people, places and things. I've heard Denial described as a veil that covers my eyes which I need to tear in half in order to see beyond it. ((((hugs)))) smile

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't know what is specifically going on with Esma, of course, but it seems clear that she is not attuned to feelings. My exAH had ADD and Asperger's -- boy, was that a lethal combination! smile He did things like you report Esma doing all the time. A lot of time he wouldn't have been able to really pay attention when I first told him something. And then he wouldn't be able to guess what kind of feelings I must be having even if he did pay attention. He would just use the stereotype feelings. So if it was Christmas you would be happy, if there was a test coming up you would be anxious, etc. Even if you said, "I'm dreading Christmas because of X and Y," he'd say, "I know you'll have fun at Christmas! You must be looking forward to it!" I'd get that "Huh?" feeling too. But he doesn't understand emotions, because of his Asperger's, so he'd just use the formula he thought was right. And then because he doesn't understand emotions, he wouldn't understand that I might be upset that he'd gotten it wrong, or why that would make a person upset. This is completely apart from his alcoholism, but of course the alcoholism just adds a whole level of chaos to the situation.

I do think that being raised in a lot of dysfunction can lead people to have "artificial Asperger's" -- they have the same lack of understanding, but not because they were born with it, but because they never learned as they were growing up.

In your case, however Esma came by it, you sound like you have a lot of awareness about her behavior. With some of these people, I just have to roll my eyes privately sometimes. Detachment sure is a help. Trying to make them understand is like talking a foreign language to them, in my experience. They don't get it and it's just frustrating for me. But going into a conversation without the expectation that they'll understand the emotional part -- that's what saves me from having smoke come out my ears, a lot of the time.

tommyecat · ~*Service Worker*~

I always turn to our slogans for direction and support. My favorite one when I experience instances such as yours is:

How important is it?

How important is it to you to devote precious energy to send a reply to that email? If it is important, by all means send a reply. If it isn't, Let Go and Let God.

In the AA 12-n-12 there is a line in it that says "...nothing pays greater dividends than restraint of pen and tongue." Once the words are out there you just can't take them back. Sometimes I send emails back to myself or even my sponsor for feedback. That often gives me the pause that I need to make sure I am not reacting to a situation. It gives me the ability to respond in love with clean hands.

I hope that helps.

Tommye

ifa · Veteran Member

Mattie wrote:
I don't know what is specifically going on with Esma, of course, but it seems clear that she is not attuned to feelings. My exAH had ADD and Asperger's -- boy, was that a lethal combination! He did things like you report Esma doing all the time. A lot of time he wouldn't have been able to really pay attention when I first told him something. And then he wouldn't be able to guess what kind of feelings I must be having even if he did pay attention. He would just use the stereotype feelings. So if it was Christmas you would be happy, if there was a test coming up you would be anxious, etc. Even if you said, "I'm dreading Christmas because of X and Y," he'd say, "I know you'll have fun at Christmas! You must be looking forward to it!" I'd get that "Huh?" feeling too. But he doesn't understand emotions, because of his Asperger's, so he'd just use the formula he thought was right. And then because he doesn't understand emotions, he wouldn't understand that I might be upset that he'd gotten it wrong, or why that would make a person upset. This is completely apart from his alcoholism, but of course the alcoholism just adds a whole level of chaos to the situation.
I do think that being raised in a lot of dysfunction can lead people to have "artificial Asperger's" -- they have the same lack of understanding, but not because they were born with it, but because they never learned as they were growing up.
In your case, however Esma came by it, you sound like you have a lot of awareness about her behavior. With some of these people, I just have to roll my eyes privately sometimes. Detachment sure is a help. Trying to make them understand is like talking a foreign language to them, in my experience. They don't get it and it's just frustrating for me. But going into a conversation without the expectation that they'll understand the emotional part -- that's what saves me from having smoke come out my ears, a lot of the time.

Thank you Mattie! I think you just helped me understand my problem with Esma, and also with several other people who give me the "huh" reaction. I think Esma wasn't paying careful attention to what my email said, so she gave the stereotypical response. If it was only this time I would think maybe it's because she was busy and reading fast and not thinking. But it has happened many times.

And even within that one email there were several other "huh" moments. Maybe it's because I am not very important to Esma, so she doesn't devote energy to reading my email? No, I don't think that's it. And she was genuinely baffled the times when I confronter her about it.

I have another friend where I work, who I talk to a lot, and she has some of this also. Maybe a lot of people have some degree of Asperger's, which as you said might result from not learning healthy communication in their family of origin.

Actually, I might have some degree of this problem, but I think I have worked hard on understanding what people mean by what they say. Maybe that's why I always notice when it happens.

Anyway, thank you for your analysis, I really learned something and I am glad I shared this.

I know it is not actually important in the overall scheme of things. I shared it as an example of something I don't know how to deal with.

I also get lots of bizarre communication and mixed messages from my qualifier. He also had a very mixed up childhood and probably never learned sane communication.

Otie · Senior Member

Dear ifa, I am glad you started this thread. I also like mattie's response. She pretty well addresses the subject!

I have dealt with sooo many people like this in my life. I grind my teeth and smoke also comes out of my ears--in frustration.

My mother-in-law did this, and, over the years I ground my teeth down to nubbins. She was basically a goo person, though. My dear husband was the one always reminding me---"she is what she is--you can't change her---overlook it"

So, ifa, I guess I am saying---I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN.

Another point---It is true, believe it or not, NOT EVERY BAD THING IN THIS WORLD IS CAUSED BY ALCOHOLICS!

I would like to know how the wedding actually goes.

Sincerely, Otie

ifa · Veteran Member

Otie wrote:
Dear ifa, I am glad you started this thread. I also like mattie's response. She pretty well addresses the subject!
I have dealt with sooo many people like this in my life. I grind my teeth and smoke also comes out of my ears--in frustration.
My mother-in-law did this, and, over the years I ground my teeth down to nubbins. She was basically a goo person, though. My dear husband was the one always reminding me---"she is what she is--you can't change her---overlook it"
So, ifa, I guess I am saying---I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN.
Another point---It is true, believe it or not, NOT EVERY BAD THING IN THIS WORLD IS CAUSED BY ALCOHOLICS!
I would like to know how the wedding actually goes.
Sincerely, Otie

Actually I have been fascinated by this subject for a long time, ever since I got involved with my qualifier in the late 1980s. I often heard myself saying to him "What do you MEAN by that??" And he would insist he was simply saying exactly what he meant, no more and no less. It was actually part of my motivation for going back to school to study communication! It is something I pay close attention to because it interests me, and also because I like knowing why someone's innocent-seeming comment has me so confused or hurt.

And it sure can be hard to confront people with these things. Suppose I said to Esma "Why on earth did you say it's wonderful and exciting that I'm going to this wedding?" Well it seems like I am picking on her, when she was only trying to be nice.

I actually did confront her about something last year. I had written her an email saying I had been to visit my family for Christmas and nothing horrible happened. She answered and said "Oh I am so glad to hear you had a wonderful Christmas with your family."

That time it got to me and I couldn't stop myself from answering. I said "Esma I don't know what it is, but you're so utterly positive all the time it just can't stand it." She had no idea at all what I meant. None. Then I felt guilty for complaining, since I didn't seem to have a good reason for being mad.

There are days when I feel like almost everyone I know has this "disorder." Maybe sometimes I cause it in some way.

There are times when I feel the whole world is against me (ACOA trait?) and I desperately crave approval. Those are the days when I seem to get hit with this weirdness the most.

Well for example: The other day I was talking to my friend Wanda about the upcoming wedding, and I was wondering if I should wear make up. I decided no, since I have never worn make up and it would be safer not to try. The only reason I was discussing it is I am going to be one of the singers at the ceremony, so how I look might be noticed.

Wanda and I are both over 50 and we both have grey hair, because we don't want to dye it. So I didn't expect to get grey hair insults from Wanda. But her comment was "Well, since you have grey hair, it's unlikely that anyone will care about how you look at the wedding, because everyone thinks women with grey hair look like old witches anyway."

I didn't even notice I had been insulted, until days later. Now I am angry, but it's probably useless to tell her.

Otie · Senior Member

Dear ifa, I think the reason that you were so hurt and confused by a "seemingly innocent comment" is because this is a person in your intimate circle. We expect that those who are close to us will see our outhentic self. This is why we share our vulnerabilities with them. When they respond to us with steretyped, robot-like responses---it demonstrates that they don't get us or don't care to get us. We feel rebuffed and actually rejected. Humans crave to be "seen" or witnessed by others.When people ignore our feelings--like your friend did---it actuall feels like they have committed an act of emotional aggression against us.

Anyway, that is my 2cents take on it.

As for your friend with the grey hair comment, I think she was being plain old passive-aggressive MEAN.

Ifa, sometimes we find ourselves in a place that is distructive to us, rather than being nourishing and life-affirming. Some people, as it turns out, are not good for us. Detachment may be what is needed.

Not all people are the same. You get to pick who to surround yourself with, and who to invite into your intimate life. We don't get to pick family. We do the best we can to love them as they are, or detach if nothing else will work.

I glad to hear that you have specialized in communication. I have a pet peeve that you can maybe help me with. Compulsive talkers. Talkers that walk on every sentence and never let you complete a thought. People who talk like it is seizure activity that they can't control. Ever experienced this?????

-- Edited by Otie on Monday 18th of July 2011 11:21:23 AM

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

hi,we never really knowabout anyone but ourselves.Yes some people are affected in different ways in how they were raised.

I would be asking myself what is it to me? Are you wanting a more intimate relationship that you can share your pain and get a response?

Lotsa good responses here. Hugs,deb

ifa · Veteran Member

Otie wrote:
Dear ifa, I think the reason that you were so hurt and confused by a "seemingly innocent comment" is because this is a person in your intimate circle. We expect that those who are close to us will see our outhentic self. This is why we share our vulnerabilities with them. When they respond to us with steretyped, robot-like responses---it demonstrates that they don't get us or don't care to get us. We feel rebuffed and actually rejected. Humans crave to be "seen" or witnessed by others.When people ignore our feelings--like your friend did---it actuall feels like they have committed an act of emotional aggression against us.
Anyway, that is my 2cents take on it.
As for your friend with the grey hair comment, I think she was being plain old passive-aggressive MEAN.
Ifa, sometimes we find ourselves in a place that is distructive to us, rather than being nourishing and life-affirming. Some people, as it turns out, are not good for us. Detachment may be what is needed.
Not all people are the same. You get to pick who to surround yourself with, and who to invite into your intimate life. We don't get to pick family. We do the best we can to love them as they are, or detach if nothing else will work.
I glad to hear that you have specialized in communication. I have a pet peeve that you can maybe help me with. Compulsive talkers. Talkers that walk on every sentence and never let you complete a thought. People who talk like it is seizure activity that they can't control. Ever experienced this?????

-- Edited by Otie on Monday 18th of July 2011 11:21:23 AM

Thank you Otie! I like your analysis. I was hurt because I had shared my family of origin agonies with Esma, and yet she still thinks I have a wonderful family. It feels like either she never heard me, or she doesn't believe me. Maybe she thinks my family is wonderful, and the problems I have with them are all my fault.

Yes, we do crave to be seen and heard and understood. But sometimes I am just not able to get that. Maybe because I almost always let my friends choose me, instead of me choosing my friends. Maybe I am afraid of being rejected by the people I really like, maybe I don't feel I am good enough for them?

The woman who made the grey hair comment is someone I know at my job. She has shared with me that she has a serious mental illness and is on medication. I am always careful to not make any unkind comments about mental illness. I may have made some mistakes, but I do try hard.

It's possible that she didn't mean to hurt me, but was just sharing what it's like to have grey hair in a society that does not respect old people. I don't know.

Regarding compulsive talkers: Yes I know some of those. I hate to admit it but sometimes I probably do it myself if I have been alone too much. It's part of my craving to be heard. But I don't think I do it a lot, I hope not.

One guy I know is a real compulsive talker. Once he starts, there is no way he is ever going to stop, so I learned that I have to just walk away. I even told him "Sorry for being rude, but I just have to walk away eventually."

He is a nice guy, but somehow got the idea that the whole universe revolves around him.

Anyway, analyzing dysfunctional communication is fascinating to me. In myself, as well as in others. I love to look at all the many different levels that are involved. I think if I had been raised in a "normal" family, I never would have needed to analyze it, because it would have come naturally.

But getting back to Esma: Her email made me feel she doesn't care at all about me. However, I know that she was probably in a big hurry when she wrote it, so that could explain part of it. Still, she has done it before so it's a pattern.

I have always worked hard at being a good listener. It takes effort and patience. Not everyone is interested in hearing other people. I feel terrible when I realize I have made a mistake and hurt someone. Like if I am talking to Wanda and I use the word "crazy" in a negative sense.

ifa · Veteran Member

I also should consider that maybe I somehow invite disrespectful communication. I don't know how or why. Or maybe these things happen to everyone?

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