The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Boundaries to me are what the entire Program hinge on, learning where I end and another person begins, I spent nearly my entire life wondering why my "boundaries" worked with some people but not others, because I thought enforcing a boundary meant informing another person how they had harmed me, telling them "I feel ____ (hurt, betrayed, etc) by this behavior and asking them not to do that any more, in some cases, the person listens, reflects what I said back to me, owns their part, makes amends, and then ceases that behavior, but what about the people who continued the behavior?
THAT is where the boundary comes in, what I just described is just good communication skills and a healthy give and take in a healthy relationship
Even Step One is nothing but a boundary, consider:
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol
That means we are unable to control or moderate someone else's drinking
We also admit we are powerless over people, we can't -get- them to behave as we'd like, not by being nice, not by being mean, not by yelling, not by passive aggressive tactics (salting the oats lol)
Step One tells us where we end and they begin, our "power" ends in a hula hoop whose outer diameter ends at the tip of my nose
and our lives had become unmanageable
Because we were spending all our time managing someone else's life with such an adverse reaction, and heavy resistance we lost sight of managing our own lives, our efforts at control increase and their efforts at resistance increase, we resort to passive aggression, they resort to "Gaslighting" and pretty soon everyone is sicker then before and viola', "my life is unmanageable"
Admitting I am powerless over someone else's drinking and my life is unmanageable as the result of trying to manage their lives and becoming so enmeshed in alcoholic insanity IS A BOUNDARY, it's -THE- Boundary, it shows where my power ends, only by focusing on myself and my actions rather then my reactions am I able to "take my power back"
The serenity prayer is a prayer that asks us to look at our boundaries
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.
I finally began to view myself as someone who had handed my car keys to someone who was a terrible driver and let them drive me around, and "we" started getting in accidents, so I started becoming a bit of a "back seat driver", I started giving advice and direction and maybe some little hints how to drive, but with me distracting her we started getting in even worse accidents, so I began yelling at her, pretty soon we were getting in fender benders on the freeway and I started actually getting injuries from her accidents, I did everything I could to "make" her a better driver, bringing her different driving manuals, giving her advice, yelling, threatening to leave, leaving, and I'd tell anyone who would listen about what a terrible driver she was, and point out how many ways her driving hurt me, and point out how much better of a driver I was, meanwhile she was viewing me as trying to wrestle control of -HER- car away from her as we both fought over the steering wheel causing more car crashes and more injuries and by the end I was nearly rabid, people would ask how I was and all I could tell them about was "her" and how harmful she was to me, and she was over on the other side, and all she could talk about was how harmful I was as we fought for control over each others lives and behaviors
One day I just got out of the car...it was that simple
It was no longer "her fault" because I was no longer giving my power away, that dynamic makes both partners INCREDIBLY sick, step one and boundaries are the beginning foundation to break that dynamic
Expectations are external, boundaries are internal
Expectations are what we have with other people, usually after they fail to meet them repeatedly, and then we lay down what we mistakenly call "a boundary" <insert behavior modification here> such as " I need you to call if you are going to be home late, especially if I have prepared dinner" after (s)he has come home late for dinner repeatedly, with an expectation and -wrongfully labeled boundary- we repeat this over and over getting angrier and angrier, whereas with a -boundary- we say if you _____ I will _______
Boundaries are internal ways to take distance and protect ourselves from other peoples actions, we may say boundaries out loud or not, but in this instance we might say "If You are late for dinner and don't call again I will not prepare dinner for you for a month
and then if (s)he is late one more time, and then subsequently comes home on time even after that I would prepare my dinner, but not theirs and sit down and enjoy it, whether they were there or not
It can even be more dramatic, such as "If you ever hit me again, I will Leave you and call the Police" or even "If you continue to drink and lie I will be forced to leave you not "you need to change your behavior" but "these are the actions I am going to take", and the absolutely -CRITICAL- part is holding up our end of the boundary, both for us, AND for them, because if we don't we teach both them AND us to not respect us, to not believe we have enforcable boundaries, because we don't, and in my experience that is as equally unhealthy for me as it is for them, we -both- get sick if I have a -negotiable boundary-, I have leanred this both in my personal life and my professional one, it doesn't mean we don't negotiate or have "rigid thinking" but boundaries are "bottom lines" and as such aren't negotiable, I mean even countries to change boundaries (borders) go to war, and the stronger subjugates the weaker, and then "changes the border", I have found the same is true in my interpersonal relationships, if I don't enforce my boundary it teaches us both codependent manipulation, and many other forms of covert warfare or even full frontal warfare, it's just unhealthy with bad results for me
It's said that an expectation is a resentment waiting to happen, because in this instance we are expecting someone to behave in way that -we- want, even if we think it is fair, and it very well may be, it may be a -bottom line- or -deal breaker- behavior, but the single most important thing about boundaries is coming up with realistic ones and then holding to them no matter what, otherwise we just teach people our boundaries are meaningless
I spent years wondering why my "boundaries" seemed to work with some poeple but not others, and I automatically labeled the people who didn't "respect my boundaries" as wrong, bad, and sick, when the truth of the matter standing in front of somebody saying the same thing over and over isn't me enforcing a boundary, it's me attempting to modify or control their behavior and then getting sick, literally sick when it doesn't work, I was going to a hardware store for bread, or I was going to a "dry well for water"
Today I try and use "I feel" statements, lets use the dinner as an example, "I feel when you come home late without calling when I have been cooking you dinner, it shows a lack of respect for me, and if you come home late again without calling, I won't prepare your dinner for a month"
end of conversation, no excuses, no
J:ustify
A:rgue
D:efend
E:xplain
This is how I feel and it is non-negotiable, as is my boundary
If my expectation is that this person who has repeatedly come home late without calling will miraculously begin to call and begin respecting me, I have put a guaranteed resentment in the bank, because in my experience if you have to explain something to somebody like common courtesy and respect more then 3 times they are not likely to suddenly "get it", however, if I put down a boundary (an interior action) I can now protect myself from this behavior
Boundaries are internal, and they -NEVER- ever ever involve someone else changing their behavior, it's how I protect myself from people who -don't- change their behavior, as opposed to -behavioral modification-, which I mistook for boundaries for very many years, there is by definition, no way someone can "not respect my boundary" because my boundary is mine, not theirs, and if they supposedly "don't respect my boundary" I either am in -the wrong relationship- or -have failed to enforce my boundary- it's not on them, it's on me to enforce my own boundaries, whereas the expectation would be "they WILL respect my boundary" and then get upset when they don't...for the 300th time, then maybe give them a lecture about how "If nothing changes, nothing changes" and "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" and completely miss the irony of what I am saying
So expectations are what I have of other people, ways I want -them- to behave, usually after they don't, and boundaries are a way to protect me from others.
Boundaries can also be covert nearly, such as my father for many years liked to say fairly mean (but true) about my mother and her side of the family, for years I tried to get him to stop and all we'd do is fight, I finally learned to say -the moment- he started doing that "oh someone is at the door" or "I'm getting another call" or "I'm going outside to smoke" and he stopped doing it, he just doesn't do it any more
One thing I learned about "defences" is by nature people attack them, that's why they are called "defences, so when I got "defensive" I invited "attack", with a boundary...it's hard to explain, but it's not a defence, it's a way to remove oneself from harms way emotionally speaking, and when my boundaries are healthy, they not only get respected but they almost seem to disappear because they aren't needed, but they HAVE to be firm.
I wrote on this forum for example about trying to help a family member get sober, and I couldn't do it (my sister) because I lacked the necessary emotional strength to hold as firm with my boundaries as I could with "anonymous" young men, with them I could be merciless, first sign of any BS and they were out, no if's ands or buts, and truthfully, they ALL got sober, and stayed that way for the most part, but with my sister I wasn't able to enforce my boundaries nearly as strongly, they proved to be "negotiable", and then although I was the one that caved in on enforcing my boundary, I responded with anger and "kashback" because of my inability to enforce my boundary, and this was the dynamic that got us both "sicker", my sister didn't end up getting sober until years later and we both ended up incredibly angry and hurt with each other, because I was unable to maintain my boundaries with her, I had "expectations" instead, and all it did was harm both of us because I was unable to maintain my boundaries
well said. I can really relate to the boundary issues you have experienced with your sister. Negotiating your boundaries basically means that you have no boundary. I think that allows the A to be even more manipulative because they know your boundaries are ineffective. I use to have hard and fast boundaries with past girlfriends. But over the years with the latest AGF they became negotiable. Very insightful
I am having trouble with boudries and putting them together. I feel a sence of urgency to figure them out as well. My ABF gets out of jail in about 20 days and I feel I need to have them in place before then. I have a good idea of what I want/need for me and my safety and sanity so to speak but I'm struggling with how to differentiate the bondries, ultimatums, control and wants. I can write it all out but then I look at it and I'm blank.
I'm kinda at a loss right now. The biggest is ABF can not live with me when he gets out. This is going to be the most difficult and I need to tell him asap. In his state right now an I'm sure it won't be pretty and may just leave the rest if my bondries unheard, by him anyway. How chooses to handle that first and most important first boundary is on him and I have to stay firm.
So what do u suggest I do? I don't have sponsor yet. I have a pretty good idea of what my bondaries will be but like I said I need to "tweak" them so to speak so they are truly bondaries and nothing more.
I am having trouble with boudries and putting them together. I feel a sence of urgency to figure them out as well. My ABF gets out of jail in about 20 days and I feel I need to have them in place before then. I have a good idea of what I want/need for me and my safety and sanity so to speak but I'm struggling with how to differentiate the bondries, ultimatums, control and wants. I can write it all out but then I look at it and I'm blank.
I'm kinda at a loss right now. The biggest is ABF can not live with me when he gets out. This is going to be the most difficult and I need to tell him asap. In his state right now an I'm sure it won't be pretty and may just leave the rest if my bondries unheard, by him anyway. How chooses to handle that first and most important first boundary is on him and I have to stay firm.
So what do u suggest I do? I don't have sponsor yet. I have a pretty good idea of what my bondaries will be but like I said I need to "tweak" them so to speak so they are truly bondaries and nothing more.
For me The Program is a package deal, like an alcoholic can "abstain" from drinking and still suffer from untreated alcoholism, and not be "recovered" because they didn't work the steps, my codependency -also- needed the steps so I could figure out my -motives- and see "what my part was", that's why in Al-anon it's suggested we do -NOT- give advice, but instead show other members the tools we used in order to arrive at our own answers
So what would I suggest?
Get a sponsor STAT, I think some life decisions are too important to entrust them to a group of people on an online forum, and I have a tendency to go "answer shopping" when I ask for advice, and of course the "advice" I get that will sound best to me will come from someone who thinks just like I do, therefore I will continue to get the same results and then think the program doesn't work, when we say "If nothing changes, nothing changes" we aren't referring to our alcoholics but instead to our -own- changes, I need to remember it was my thinking that has -ALWAYS- caused -ALL- of my "problems" so unless I change my thinking fundamentally by working the steps I will continue to get the same result no matter -who- I am dating, for YEARS I kept getting the same results although I dated different women, and it wasn't until I sat down with a sponsor and thoroughly worked the steps in a column format that I understood the statement "I was the common denominator in all my relationships" and no amount of self help books or advice or gurus or advice from friends or boundaries or ANYTHING helped because "If Nothing changes, nothing changes" and I hadn't changed yet, not until I worked the steps, there is something that fundamentally changes in a human being by writing down all this stuff in this step format and seeing all our own behaviors in our own words and handwriting that no amount of advice, no amount of meeting attendence, no amount of self help books, no amount of therapy can ever hope to achieve in my experience, of course there are two opinions on this subject those that HAVE worked the steps (Yes, it changed me fundamentally as a human being) and those that haven't (I didn't need the steps and here's why)
Both opinions are valid, it's just I want what Tommyecat, Jerry, Hotrod have ya know? Serenity, non judgmentalism love, experience, strength and hope, if I want what someone has, I have to do what they did
linbaba- thank you. Maybe I'm to "new" to get what you are saying or i didn't express myself properly, probably to new to get my head around what you said lol. I don't want anyone to tell me what my boundaries should be or anything like that. I feel they are mine and mine alone. Rather I just need to figure out how to apply what i have learned and need to learn and use that info to help guide myself in properly setting my boundaries. Does that make any sense?
I am going to my second F2F tonight. I really don't know anyone yet, awful me I cant even remember anyone's names lol. There are two women tho that my "gut" told me to watch. I will ask my HP to give me the courage to talk with one of them after the meeting. I certainly cant get a yes if I don't ask right?
Hopefully at the very least if I don't find a sponsor I may get help with this in a new friend until I find my sponsor.
linbaba- thank you. Maybe I'm to "new" to get what you are saying or i didn't express myself properly, probably to new to get my head around what you said lol. I don't want anyone to tell me what my boundaries should be or anything like that. I feel they are mine and mine alone. Rather I just need to figure out how to apply what i have learned and need to learn and use that info to help guide myself in properly setting my boundaries. Does that make any sense?
I am going to my second F2F tonight. I really don't know anyone yet, awful me I cant even remember anyone's names lol. There are two women tho that my "gut" told me to watch. I will ask my HP to give me the courage to talk with one of them after the meeting. I certainly cant get a yes if I don't ask right?
Hopefully at the very least if I don't find a sponsor I may get help with this in a new friend until I find my sponsor.
OK, now this is just my experience, but I will try to explain it using a "building" analogy, like building a house
When I was a young man I went to work doing construction, the first thing we would do was pound stakes and stretch strings in order to get "flat" and "level" surfaces, from them we built walls that were "plumb" (straight up and down) because when we didn't do that, we'd build the walls and they wouldn't quite meet, something that looked level and plumb but was just a little microscopic bit "off" by 30' away would leave a gap 6" large at the top of the wall then the roof wouldn't fit, it was a matter of skewed perspective, and no matter how hard we tried to force the wall together at the end that showed the gap, it would never fit, because that wasn't where the problem was, although that is where the problem "appeared" to be, that is where the gap was, the hole in the wall, the pieces that wouldn't fit, the harder we tried to force this "square peg in the round hole" and the more we focused on "the problem" the worse it got, we'd force it here, and bigger gaps appeared "over there"
Living with active alcoholism and other peoples skewed realities for a number of years took away my "level playing field", I would crash and burn, get angry trying to force square pegs into round holes, and harder I tried, the worse it got, it was like the story of the man walking down the street and he saw a drunk man standing under a streetlight peering at the ground, so he walked up and asked "do you need help?" the drunk man answered, "Yes, I have lost my keys" so they both searched under the well lit streetlight for the mans keys until the first man finally asked, "Are you sure you this is where you lost your keys?"
The man answered, "No, I lost them down that dark alley"
"what? then why are we searching here?"
The drunk answered, "Because the light is better here"
For me trying to solve my own problems, trying to set my own boundaries, trying to make a level playing field and plumb lines before I worked the steps was no different then standing under the streetlight looking for my keys, or trying to force two walls together where they didn't fit, because this is where "the problem" appeared to be, when in fact "people hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably found we have made a decision based on self that placed us in a postion to be hurt"
So working the steps is no different then pounding those stakes in the ground and remapping a "level playing field" and until I did that, no matter -what- I did I kept getting the same results, I set boundaries that were behavior modifications, and I kept making decisions based on self that kept putting me in a position to be hurt, and no matter how I twisted, turned and looked, the furthest I could come up with "this other person is wrong, hurtful, this, this and this is their fault" I had a complete and utter inability to see "my part" and the decisions based on self I was making and -had made in the past- that placed me in a position to be hurt, no matter how hard I tried building a house from a skewed sense of "zero" ensured I would continue making the same mistakes again and again and expecting different results
Einstein said, you cannot solve a problem with the same level of thinking that created the problem.
Said another way is that when you have a problem, your mind is the level of thinking that created the problem. You need to get out of your way of thinking that caused the problem in the first place.
This is a long story, but the short version is this. Your beliefs dictate the possible choices you have to choose from. There is an infinite amount of choices available, and yet we are only aware of a few.
Our beliefs dictate the choices we are aware of. And it is those same beliefs that created the problem or situation you are now asking questions about trying to solve.
A better step up in making choices would be to go within and connect with your higher self, your holy spirit, your inner knowing, whatever you want to call it. Connect with that intelligence that is driving your life, we do that by working the steps.
It can answer outside of your belief systems, outside of the limited choices your mind presents to you. It will give you things that are outside the level of thinking that created the problem in the first place.
Until I did that (worked the steps) I kept doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, I kept thinking if I tried a little harder for a little longer, if I was more kind, or even more mean, If I set firmer boundaries, or even tried being more permissive, and I kept getting the same. result. every. time.
When I worked the steps it remapped my brain, I learned what "my part" was, and presented me with different choices, thus I began getting different results
Nothing else worked
period, not therapy, not self help books, not seeing a psychriatrist, until I changed -me-, and until I remapped my "flat surface" I couldn't get the roof to fit on my "house" no matter how hard I tried
devlynn wrote:
Confusing subject line huh? LOL
Here is my situation,
(Im just going to put it out there like it so my brain wont hurt so much while i type this lol.)
My ABF is disabled and receives SSDI. His doctors, the State and who ever else know he is an A, recovering addict and has been homeless on more then one occasion. In their infinite wisdom they decided the only way he could receive benefits was to have a Payee-Rep. Some one other then himself to control his money and finances.
No surprise here, that would be me.
So I have an obligation to Social Security to ensure his rent and what ever immediate self sustaining bills are paid. Frankly there isn't much left after that is done if anything.
Now heres where Im having trouble. Control! If i hand the control to ABF Im going against my legal obilgation to S.S. if I continue to control ABF finances i removing the consequences of his actions. Kind of a catch 22 if you ask me.
I'm sure the first thing to pop in your head might be to remove myself as his Payee-rep. Again it will be up to me to find a new rep. Not such an easy task. It is a big responsibility. We are talking cold hard cash each and every month. My ABF cant even cash his own checks and the potential for this to go very badly is there if put into the wrong hands.
Eventually the goal is for him to become well enough to manage his own money. In good consince I can not go in to the S.S. office and tell them he is well enough for that. I also know that his family is not "well" and would fall pray to his addictions and would just hand him the $ has he asked for it. Not my problem on one hand but the obligation I took with S.S. makes it my problem. I would not being doing my job properly for S.S. if I handed this over to his family knowing what I know.
I feel I need to figure this one out sooner then later. I know ABF will be out of jail soon and he may feel the need to find a new payee-rep with my new boundaries, lol. I take S.S. very seriously. Its not easy to obtain disability and we all contribute to S.S. and god forbid we ever needed, i want to do the right thing by S.S. and all of us for that matter. It all our money.
Also I would like to add that trying to deal with Social Security is a joke. They are so busy and most are not properly educated on these types of situations. They look at you like you have two heads. I realized very quickly that going into the office and asking for help was equivalent to asking my dog for help lol.
This post is a perfect example of what I am trying to explain, we "volunteer" to "help" the alcoholic do something they should do for themselves, thereby creating the "designated patient" dynamic (google it, it's VERY important in codie relationships) and then have created a "lose-lose" situation for ourselves by creating a situation that is GUARANTEED to bring about resentment, and the more we struggle with trying to "do the right thing" the worse the situation gets
Where is it written ANY of this is your responsibilty? Because you volunteered?
Correct me if I am wrong, but you aren't having him move back in with you when he gets out of prison yes? or if he does, there are "conditions" he must abide by?
So, I hate to do this, but "if it were me" I would just say, "I can't help you with this, this is your responsibility to find someone to handle your money, if I do this it will create an unhealthy dynamic"
Thereby putting HIS responsibility back in HIS lap where it belongs
I don't see a single scenario where you handling his money ends well, either he pitches a fit because he wants you to give him "his money" thereby insuring the bills don't get paid, and you get a resentment, or you pay the bills first and he gets a resentment
We don't do for others what they should do for themselves...
ever.
This is "his ball" or his "hot potato" or his "problem" not yours, and the only way I know how to deal with "other peoples problems" is to not make them mine
this is a case where we make a decision based on a "non level surface" (handling his money is my responsibility) that ALWAYS ends up with a 6" gap thirty feet away and no matter how we struggle with "setting boundaries" and "trying to do the right thing" it just. doesn't. fit. together. because we have made a decision based on self (I am the responsible one thus I need to handle his money) that places us in a position to get hurt.
THIS is why I needed a sponsor, I spent all my time trying to solve problems by concentrating on "them" and what "they" should do and the truth was I never should have gotten involved with entire situation in the first place!
remove self from situation
no problem
-- Edited by linbaba on Sunday 5th of June 2011 01:55:29 PM
Maybe I have been trying to put the "roof" on the house before the walls were up. As for being his payee-rep, if i did hand that off i would no longer have to worry about it, period.
i have consumed myself for years, forever it seems, with "doing the right thing" and always being fair. I guess if i looked at this way, if it doesnt involve me its not my business. I can still "do the right thing" when i choose to. an example of that would be, the clerk at the store hands me a 20$ bill instead of a ten. the right thing is to hand it back and point out the mistake. convincing myself to stay as his payee-rep might be the "right thing" but in reality it may not be "right" for me and MY recovery.
as for setting boundaries, i wasnt looking to have a spread sheet of rules per say. i know for me and my recovery i can not let this man back into my home to live. i could go on about the many reasons why but it still comes out with the same answer, he cant come back into my home to live. i know this like i know this (al-anon) is where i need to be. yet i am still have trouble with this. maybe i dont know it. really if i look deep inside and try to be honest with myself, i think i have fear about it. fear that he will say, fine the hell with you, give me my $ and a bus ticket. maybe i know inside that is prob going to be the outcome and im not ready to let go. then we are back to square one. for my safety and sanity he can not live with me. oh my, that just made my head spin lol.
(5 min pause)
sitting here and trying to think, this is what popped in my head, Let go Let God!
I have to write that letter to him. I have to give the rest to God.
Thank you again. Your post truly meant a lot to me and most of all made me THINK!!
