Jerry & Others: Question for You - Al-Anon Family Group

GailMichelle · ~*Service Worker*~

Jerry & Others: Question for You

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

From my personal experience with all recovery levels everyone gets an opportunity to arrive at the real truth about what it was like, how we thought, felt and behaved how we hurt ourselves and others. We come to understand and it does take willingness, time and effort. We don't come to understand perfectly because some events get buried deep and/or forgotten. If you are harboring resentments from and for the past I'd say go after them as you remember them as best you can with a sponsor and then cut the past loose...turn it over to God as you understand God.

Alcoholics and lots of other people blame other people, places and things in order to arrive at acceptance and/or closure. Sometimes I get it right on and other times I don't and then...I don't use blame anymore because there is absolutely no value in it for me when I'm looking for peace of mind and serenity. Lots of times I've had to let go "just because"..."it happened and it's over".

Alcoholics hold center stage and stand directly under the spotlight. They are so easy to blame as I was when my drinking was out of control. While standing under the spotlight we claim all of the attention is because of _________ add yourself or any other handy person, place or thing except me.

A sincere self look at self with the consequence of correcting self is difficult and next to impossible for some. For me it took 5 years to get to my first 4th step and then it got harder however the need to insure that the disease wouldn't kill me outright kept me going and some of what I had to face apalled me. My actions and deeds made me sick to my mind, body, spirit and emotions and I drove hard to make the apologies and the amends. One apology took me two years to make and two trips of 5000 miles each to reach the persons I had hurt so badly.

Yes when I hurt someone I left them in pain until I came back years later to apologize and show my amends. Some apologies I am bent to make cannot be made because of the caveat at the end of the 9th step, "except when to do so would injury them or others."

Some of us...both sides of the fence never do come to a clear understanding of what we did to others...we self protect ourselves from honest discovery because of an assorment of fears...pride, ego, etc. Not all alcoholics arrive at the understanding of "how they felt from what I did". If they sit in the rooms long enough and dilligently work the program with good sponsorship, honest intent and attitude and the willingness to do whatever it takes; the chances are better.... however I wouldn't hold my ability to be happy on the chance that it might happen. My alcoholic did do a 9th step with me after I had already forgiven her and let it all go and her 9th was progress for her and didn't nearly paint the picture of what her side of the bar cause the family and myself. My 9th with her included some very painful events that after I have spoken to her rarely speak of it with others.

Don't wait on him...get to work on your happiness. ((((hugs)))) Thanks for the trust. smile

GailMichelle · ~*Service Worker*~

Jerry
As always, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I do not think I harbor resentment towards him. What bothers me is when he tells me how horrible he felt when I rejected him, it's as though he is telling me that I'm truly an insensitive person. To me, if he understood my end of the stick, he would understand why I did what I did - which he labels "rejection."

What just came to mind is Canadian Guy's frequent replies to such a concern: What you think of me is none of my business.

But then my ego says, But.... But.... this is different - he was my husband for 36 years. He "should" know that I'm not selfish.

Yep, I have work to do. Thanks again!!!!

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Gail I do not know if this would be helpful but I found that feelings are not rational or sane They are just feelings I know that pre alanon I always wanted to take everyone's feelings away and make them see things my way so that I could feel OK. I have learned that that is not my job .

Alanon asks me to let people have their own feelings and that these feelings are not fact. I am not responsible for these feelings as each person is responsible for their own feelings So if your husband is feeling sad and rejected it is OK you can also express your feelings on the issue. You feel rejected when this happened, I understand , I felt___-

Just keep validating your feelings as he is validating his.

White Rabbit · ~*Service Worker*~

I think my AH understands that. He's made very heartfelt amends to his family - the living amends are the most incredible. Since he got sober 2 years ago, I've never heard him blame anyone or anything else for his alcoholism. I am not an alcoholic and maybe not the most qualified to answer this question. Jerry, of course, and maybe some others in both programs have some valuable insight that I don't have. I always enjoy open meetings where I can see that the path of destruction caused by alcoholism didn't just take out stuff on my side of the street. It got the other side equally.

Just wanted to say that I do believe that A's understand and appreciate the impact their behavior had on others - just as I appreciate the impact my irrational behavior must've had, and how my own junk added to the mix of insanity.

It is hard, though - I think I understand where you're coming from. Once in a while I get messages from my exAH about how sad and depressed he's felt, how he doesn't have friends or family anymore, etc. I have a very hard time not getting sucked in and feeling that I didn't do everything I possibly could've done in the situation. I always felt guilty about even thinking about getting out, and still sometimes do. I feel guilty that I'm happy and he's miserable. And now that I wrote that - what the heck? I feel guilty that I'm happy???? But it's true, sometimes I do.

It's easier to see if I pretend that I am one of my friends. If one of my friends had been in the situation I was in, I wouldn't feel that the person hadn't done all he or she could've done. I wouldn't feel that the person wasn't deserving of living a life free from drama and chaos. I wouldn't feel that the person should feel bad for being happy, joyous, and free. So why do I feel guilty when I think about ME doing those things?

I don't know, but that's why I keep coming back.

Blessings,

Summer

-- Edited by White Rabbit on Monday 23rd of May 2011 09:54:45 PM

GailMichelle · ~*Service Worker*~

hotrod wrote:
Alanon asks me to let people have their own feelings and that these feelings are not fact. I am not responsible for these feelings as each person is responsible for their own feelings So if your husband is feeling sad and rejected it is OK you can also express your feelings on the issue. You feel rejected when this happened, I understand , I felt___-
Just keep validating your feelings as he is validating his.

Hi Hot Rod:

Appreciate your thoughts.

I do understand that I'm not resonsible for his feelings, perhaps on an intellectual level.

When he tells me how I rejected him, I do say "I understand." But I don't elaborate, nor do I tell him how I feel. He hasn't worked the program, other than attend some AA meetings awhile back. I do validate my feelings to me only. If I were to share with him how I felt rejected all those years, he wouldn't understand. Plus, I realize that he was never responsible for my feelings, either.

What I want is for him to think of me as a good person. Sure, I have my selfish episodes like everyone else. However, the thought of him thinking that I could be so insensitive to his welfare drives me a little nuts still.

~Silent Scream ~ when I try to iron out my thoughts and feelings on this, they get more convoluted! Gotta let them go! He is going to think whatever he thinks.

GailMichelle · ~*Service Worker*~

White Rabbit wrote:
I think my AH understands that. He's made very heartfelt amends to his family - the living amends are the most incredible. Since he got sober 2 years ago, I've never heard him blame anyone or anything else for his alcoholism. I am not an alcoholic and maybe not the most qualified to answer this question. Jerry, of course, and maybe some others in both programs have some valuable insight that I don't have. I always enjoy open meetings where I can see that the path of destruction caused by alcoholism didn't just take out stuff on my side of the street. It got the other side equally.

Just wanted to say that I do believe that A's understand and appreciate the impact their behavior had on others - just as I appreciate the impact my irrational behavior must've had, and how my own junk added to the mix of insanity.

It is hard, though - I think I understand where you're coming from. Once in a while I get messages from my exAH about how sad and depressed he's felt, how he doesn't have friends or family anymore, etc. I have a very hard time not getting sucked in and feeling that I didn't do everything I possibly could've done in the situation. I always felt guilty about even thinking about getting out, and still sometimes do. I feel guilty that I'm happy and he's miserable. And now that I wrote that - what the heck? I feel guilty that I'm happy???? But it's true, sometimes I do.

It's easier to see if I pretend that I am one of my friends. If one of my friends had been in the situation I was in, I wouldn't feel that the person hadn't done all he or she could've done. I wouldn't feel that the person wasn't deserving of living a life free from drama and chaos. I wouldn't feel that the person should feel bad for being happy, joyous, and free. So why do I feel guilty when I think about ME doing those things?

I don't know, but that's why I keep coming back.

Blessings,

Summer

-- Edited by White Rabbit on Monday 23rd of May 2011 09:54:45 PM

Thanks for your post - very helpful. I can relate to all that you shared. I try to imagine myself giving a friend in my situation some advice and then taking it, too.

I think working through these feelings takes time. It will only be 1 year next month since we divorced.

Thanks again!

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

GailMichelle wrote:
. If I were to share with him how I felt rejected all those years, he wouldn't understand. Plus, I realize that he was never responsible for my feelings, either.
What I want is for him to think of me as a good person. Sure, I have my selfish episodes like everyone else. However, the thought of him thinking that I could be so insensitive to his welfare drives me a little nuts still.

Gail One final thought on this subject I too never bothered to share my feelings I also thought why should I I am responsible for them and they would not understand.

In alanon I learned that I MUST share my feelings so that people know who I am and what I think and believe. Your husband is not a mind reader. If you shared that you understood how he felt rejected and at the same time You also indicated that you felt, abandoned. unsupported, unappreciated even though you continued to love and support him. He is then given a complete picture of your feelings and who you are. You are not asking him to fix these feelings . You are validating yourself and not waiting for anyone else to validate you.

Interesting issue.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

This has turned out to be a very informative post and by reading and thinking and remembering I get to understand more of what it was like then and how it is now; such as during the drinking times it was almost impossible to mention out loud the good about my partners or anyone else in my life. Hanging on to the negative stuff kept me protected from being hurt. If I said something nice which I appreciated about my wife left me vunerable to being hurt by the consequences of the disease. It was after I got into program that my sponsorship taught me to balance my perspective of my alcoholic wife and to not be afraid to give her positive acknowledgement and feedback for who she was and what she did and then we were also separated at that time also. I was afraid that if I said something nice to her herself she would take it as everything was okay and then the bottom would drop out again and the merry-go-round and ferris wheel would start up with all those crazy lights and sickening tinny music. He might also be feeling that fearful...Only he will arrive at the solution. I'm still listening. ((((hugs)))) smile

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

If a person is in AA, they will eventually develop a keen knowledge and awareness of how their drinking effected others, was enabled by others, and how they now are different with others in sobriety. This is part of the promises of AA and also a huge focus of the steps.

Katy · ~*Service Worker*~

Oh I have wondered about this too, the times I have said if you loved me and really know me at all you would understand, I spent a lot of time thinking, if he could just tell me in words (my own words) lol! how sorry he was for all the pain he had caused us, I could get over it!

Thing is, he is not me, he doesn't see it the way I see it, just as I cannot see it from his eyes, best I can do is, learn that I will not get the validation I want and need from this person, seems you cannot give what you do not pocess, and I have seen a few times lately in my husbands eyes he really is at a loss of what I am seeking from him.

So then your post brought me to another realisation, because I spent so much of our life berating him through the active years, I have found it very difficult to praise him, I guess it's fear, that if I start to open myself up again, will it lead me down that road to no mans land again?

Words spill out of our mouths so easily, actions speak much louder!

great post

Katy

x

maryjane · ~*Service Worker*~

Hmmm, interesting.
In the beginning of my recovery, I did as was suggested by Al-Anon members and I did give praise and positive acknowledgement to my recovering AH. This was 11 yrs. ago. I did it with the "hope"/ expectation that it would be reciprocated. It never was. Funny thing is, I have come across over those 11 yrs., things that he has written to other people, not family members. He talks in those writings about how he got things straight with his family members. It never happened, but in his mind. At times, also, during the 11 yrs. I have asked daughters (when they are frustrated with their dad), if he has ever mentioned the chaos that he caused in their lives, and they always say no, it's never been mentioned. I think all this is happening in his head. I no longer have hope or expectations. It's probably better that way even though we have been married 40 yrs. It is not "normal". I have no hope it will ever be "normal".

In the meantime, I am living my life and becoming the best person I can be with the help of the program.

Jozie · ~*Service Worker*~

((((((((((((((((((GAILMICHELLE))))))))))))))))))))

Thank You for this Topic :0) I have learned so Much from the Wisdom that you have created here... And Alot was just up my alley for the happenings in my life... So Many things to grab hold of here, and I have learned that when I take the Focus OFF of them, and their Feelings and put the focus on ME & Mine feelings, It tends (For Me) To Make my life more Managable... I have learned that if I am Feeling like I Need Validated By Them, then I have not figured out yet, "What my part in it is!" That I would Need such a thing from someone that is Incapable of suppling it for me... All these Lesson came at a cost for me to do the work on myself... Even if it ment Detaching till I can work it out...

For Me I'm Sorry really never ment much if they wasn't willing to talk things thru, I have thought at times that "Im Sorry" is a Way Out for some people to feel they did their part in saying it... I know for me, I HURT when someone I love or care about hurts, and I Can now feel compassion for those that are trying to do better... be better... Own their part... Its the ones that can't, don't and don't want too that i struggle to find the compassion, they I'm sure Deserve.

And This is Why I think I Feel this way... I Grew up IN an Alcoholic home, My Father was a Women beater... My Mother included... and i Remember walking in the front door of my "Other Brothers Mom's" and my New Brother was only about 10 months old... I look up at his mom who has not 1 but 2 Black Eyes, with tears Running down her face, Holdin my Little brother in her lap, and my Father, on the Floor Screamin "Im SORRY... What More Can a Say then Im SORRY!!!" and I then remember her putting a smile on her face "For Me" and Saying Come On In Honey, "We're Ok!" Well I was a Teenager and I Remember it well... I "Came In" Got in my Fathers Face & Gave him one back... To After Which I said! "I'm Not Sorry HOW COULD YOU!" To My knowledge with Only the Times I Seen with my Own Eyes... It happened many times After that Day! So I Guess "I'm Sorry" Really never ment nothing to me after that day... If He was Really Sorry for any of it, it wouldn't have happened the way it did... My Father Did that Day Grab hold of me, by both my arms and escorted me out of his home, to which while he was shaking me in mid air, a friend of mine in the same complex came to my aide and instrucked him to release me, wether his daughter or not... and we did not speak for a couple months... But I Could not Accept "Im Sorry" as Nothing more then Words spit from the mouth of a Very Sick Person! A Person so Sick in the Disease of Alcoholism, that his "I'm Sorrys" were Very Short Lived... at least till the NEXT Time!

Since I Joined the Walls of this Program, I have Grown more then I thought Possible with the Wisdom that is Shared here, and Just getting this out, and hearing the responses from the many peeps that mean so much to me here, I know i Still have More Work to do... More getting to the bottom of my Own Feelings...

AGAIN.... Thank you So Much for Bringing Me Back to the NOW Of It All... We are ALL Growin together, but only One Day at A Time :0)

Sending Loving Prayers Your Way that you Find Your Happily Ever After no Matter What :0)

Please take what you like & Leave the Rest...
Friends in Recovery...
Jozie

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Gail in my experience it depends on each person! A nice person can be an

A, a serial killer can be an A.

I don't believe we can bunch them together.

Each person has their own experience with recovery and sobriety.

Also from what I have seen is most feel so much guilt. they cannot stand to get clear and face it.

Remember it is the disease that put you and kids thru so much, not the person. Also remember if they started drinking and or using when they were 15 or 18 21 whatever that is the age they are when they go into recovery. they have not made it to the milestones of growing up and maturity.

Even if he did say yes I know I hurt you, blah blah, he is an A we non A's and them do not feel things the same.

Him feeling sorry might be totally different than how sorry feels to you.

Hugs hon.GREAT question. You are sharing such honesty.hugs,debilyn

GailMichelle · ~*Service Worker*~

Jerry F, hotrod, White Rabbit, pinkchip, Katy, maryjane, Jozie & Debilyn,

You each have given me a lot of good E,S&H. I've reread each of your replies 3 times and have gained more understanding each time.

For me what it boils down to at this point in my life is that I'm having a difficult time accepting life on life's terms. I'm still stamping my feet (figuratively) and saying darn it! This is how I want it to be. Gotta go get my white flag (surrender). wink

member922 · Senior Member

Hi Gail. I don't know if this is relevant or not, but here is my experience.

I was dxd with bipolar disorder. I was on meds, off meds, abused meds, od'd, did hospital time, etc. I didn't think one thing about my h or my children. It was all about me and how I thought the world would be a better place without me in it.

A short time before I was going through my divorce, I got on the right track, changed my outlook and stayed on my meds. When my h filed, he was so mad at me, for various things that I had done. He actually threatened to throw my past in my face and take away my children. It was then and only then, that I realized I was wrong. I straightened up and knew that I would have to take good care of myself and quit being selfish, of course I never thought it was selfish.

As soon as I was out of the situation, I knew from then on I would never do anything to jeopardize my childrens' lives. I guess that was my bottom. It was only after this awakening that I realized, yes I was selfish, yes I was hurting the ones that I loved, yes they do really love me. So personally, I realized my wrong doings. It took me awhile, but the slap in the face woke me up.

I have many regrets, but I have decided that my life is not only for me. I now understand how I impacted others. Of course I can't change anything, but I can admit that I did a lot of harm without even trying.

GailMichelle · ~*Service Worker*~

member922 wrote:
Hi Gail. I don't know if this is relevant or not, but here is my experience.

I was dxd with bipolar disorder. I was on meds, off meds, abused meds, od'd, did hospital time, etc. I didn't think one thing about my h or my children. It was all about me and how I thought the world would be a better place without me in it.

A short time before I was going through my divorce, I got on the right track, changed my outlook and stayed on my meds. When my h filed, he was so mad at me, for various things that I had done. He actually threatened to throw my past in my face and take away my children. It was then and only then, that I realized I was wrong. I straightened up and knew that I would have to take good care of myself and quit being selfish, of course I never thought it was selfish.

As soon as I was out of the situation, I knew from then on I would never do anything to jeopardize my childrens' lives. I guess that was my bottom. It was only after this awakening that I realized, yes I was selfish, yes I was hurting the ones that I loved, yes they do really love me. So personally, I realized my wrong doings. It took me awhile, but the slap in the face woke me up.

I have many regrets, but I have decided that my life is not only for me. I now understand how I impacted others. Of course I can't change anything, but I can admit that I did a lot of harm without even trying.

Thanks for your share. I'm so happy for you that you have turned your life around.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.