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I am brand new to the program. My BF, who I live with, is coming up on 5 years clean/sober. Unfortunately, not drinking/using doesn't mean he's perfect! LOL And I am codependent - I was before we met 4 years ago and seem to be repeating my own patterns. He has ADHD and we recently had a big blow out where he publicly embarassed me and then threatened physical violence if I didn't "back off." This is a first, and it has been a real eye-opener. I am struggling because although he has apologized, he doesn' t seem to really understand how badly he has damaged this relationship. I am also really, really disappointed that he keeps saying I "pushed him to it." We have an appointment with his therapist, and when she hears him say that, I am SURE she will have alot to say! Hopefully he will take a good hard look at his behavior and understand that nobody is responsible for his actions except himself. Anyway, one of our ongoing issues is that he leaves the house to run a quick errand and is gone for hours. One errand turns into three, morphs into stopping by the bookstore for a coffee, etc. etc. He doesn't bother to tell me when he gets sidetracked like this. He isn't doing anything wrong, but I would appreciate a quick text letting me know he's not going to be home for dinner or something like that, so I can then plan MY day. I think this is just common courtesy since we are a couple and he lives with me. He feels it is completely ridiculous that a grown man should have to check in like that and inform me of his every move. I don't tell him what he can or can't do. I'm simply sick of never know when he's coming or going. Is this codependent control? I don't think it is but don't trust my own judgment. Sometimes he'll go to work (he's a freelancer) and I'll think he's coming home around 8:00 pm and he'll get in at 11:30, without any contact all day. When I ask him why he can't just let me know when he's going to be late, he says that when he's working I'm the furthest thing from his mind and it just doesn't occur to him. Well, gee, thanks! I am really angry at him and am struggling with what is a reasonable request in a "normal" couple and what might be codependent behavior on my part. FYI, when he's not working, he'll text me stupid stuff all day long to the point where it interferes with MY work! He's very hot and cold...either he's madly in love with me, all over me like a puppy, or he's completely just gone! Our last blow out was because I got upset at a party when he basically ignored me for hours, because he was "networking." It was a huge party and I barely saw him. When i told him I was getting upset about being ignored, he screamed at me in front of everyone, and when I tried to speak to him about his behavior (ie, you don't even speak to me like that in private, how dare you embarass me in public), he threatened to "knock me out" if I didn't back off. He just FLIPPED. He has rage issues but they've never been directed at me. Sooooo...am I just supposed to accept that I can't change him, or continue to request that he check in with me from time to time and not ignore me at social events? Right now I have told him I'm not going to any social events with him anymore because it's just not worth it to me. If he needs to "network" to the exclusion of all else, I'll just stay home. While that's a good boundary and protects my feelings, I don't really love the idea! So confused about all this....just started going to meetings so hopefully insights will come! Sorry this is so long....head is scrambled!!
My first thought is that he felt with you so near and so ready to step in that he needed to just take care of this by himself. That's why he told you to back off. He didn't feel you were respecting his space? And then he didn't say it so nice?
My hubby of 40 yrs. (and 11 in AA) doesn't ever tell me all the events of his day. I have gotten used to it. I put everything I do on the calendar, so he knows where to find me, but I don't get the same courtesy. I don't plan my day depending on where he is.
No, this is not normal...but it is what it is. It is alcoholic behavior. When he "networks" and forgets that he is there with me, I am also independent of him. That means if I want to go home, I do. I also don't have to tell him that I am going home. If I told him he would forget anyway. I also stopped doing his work/social events with him.
When you ask a normie for what you are asking from him, they will comply or at least talk about it with you. When he blows up and blames you for having feelings, that is alcoholic behavior.
You've been with him for 4 years? How do you know he's really clean and sober? Did he get clean and sober using a program like AA?
You wrote: When i told him I was getting upset about being ignored, he screamed at me in front of everyone, and when I tried to speak to him about his behavior (ie, you don't even speak to me like that in private, how dare you embarass me in public), he threatened to "knock me out" if I didn't back off. He just FLIPPED. He has rage issues but they've never been directed at me.
He threatened to knock you out??? It sounds like his rage issues have made the step towards you. What is in US that makes us think we deserve to be treated in that manner? wouldn't we run from someone if we saw them treat their mother that way? Is there any excuse at all for that kind of boorish behavior - and isn't there NO excuse at all for that kind of treatment from someone who supposedly cares about us.
My AH says he wants his freedom to come and go as he pleases without me getting upset, he wants to fish and hunt and play pool and do things with his buddies and I'm just supposed to be there when he's done with them and ready to be the smiling brown-eyed girl he wants to come home to. Says, you want me in prison with you as the warden. My counter is this: This is a marriage, marriage is like that - relationships that work are give and take and a whole lot of compromise and if he doesn't want to be a part of the marriage, there's the door.
I don't think there is anything wrong in wanting word from your significant other as to his day. Mine used to show up, tell me to get ready to go and then wait impatiently for me to rush through the process - impossible to rush with female hair like mine, i quit doing much to it to get out the door faster then get accused of letting myself go - my fault in the long run for not standing up to him in the first place. I was supposed to change my plans at a moment's notice, often with his claims that he told me about it ahead of time - then suffer his wrath when I wasn't ready fast enough and begin the affair on a sour note and accused later of always being unwilling to go places with him - crazymaking.
But I digress - I'm concerned about the rage being directly at you - your instinct to think "how dare he treat me this way" was right on. My opinion, for what its worth.
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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
I think those are issues that would concern anyone.
I also think that most people would think it reasonable to notify their partner if they're not going to make it home for dinner, if they're going to be out later than expected, etc. Some couples might have an arrangement that they don't bother to notify each other. That's fine if it works for them. The thing is that they have negotiated the arrangement so each person is happy with the situation. That doesn't sound as if it's the case in your relationship.
The trouble with people who have rage issues. "but not at us," is that they don't know how to moderate their feelings -- and very likely it will eventually be at us. I think you are wise to be very cautious about your boyfriend's explosion.
My ex would also disappear for hours. I found out later that those hours involved drinking. He hid it so successfully that it took years before I put the pieces together and found it out. Al-Anon advises us not to snoop (but maybe that's when we already know the answer). I did snoop, and what I found staggered me. My alarm bells go off at your story. Remember that they can also be sitting in a coffee shop, and be drinking. My ex carried around those tiny airline bottles in his pockets. He refilled them with vodka. It took me years, as I say, to work all this out, he was so clever. The disappearing was the only clue that something was odd -- until I began to put it all together, and then I realized the meaning of a lot of other things.
Please take good care of yourself. My experience is that we often give them the benefit of the doubt even when thing are actually very bad, rather than that we blame them unnecessarily. I think most partners of alcoholics can say, "I was too trusting for much longer than I should have been, knowing what I know now."
I was in an abusive relationship for 9 years. Yes I see my part in it now, but there is no excuse for someone putting their hands on you. Is there a women's center in your area? You can find out more about the cycle of abuse and get free help there. Also, alanon for me is the way I get support for what I am going through living with an active alcohlic. When I read the literature I get it on a daily basis, and feel better. Concentrating on me and making plans for me help. If someone doesn't let me know what they are up to, I am learning that I can make my own plans and do my own thing. One thing I learned so far as well is that I can only change me, my reactions, and my stuff. So when I change, that shift can affect others. let it begin with me... :) HUGS!
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-youfoundme
Let go and let God...Let it be... let it begin with me...
I once was very confused about what is self-care and what constitutes being controling. My ex husband pulled the same thing. Often he would not let me know what he'd decided to do and leave me hanging. I didn't have boundaries back then. I found that the basis of my confusion was lack of trust in my judgment. (You mentioned this is your issue, too).
Through therapy and now Al-Anon program, I'm learning to trust myself, set and enforce boundaries, and just all around respect myself. I'm better today than in the past. Through Al-Anon and all that it involves, I anticipate to continually grow for as long as I live.
You stated that you're new to the program. Does that mean you are attending meetings? Meetings are a great way to begin the process of self-respect.
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You have to go through the darkness to truly know the light. Lama Surya Das
Resentment is like taking poison & waiting for the other person to die. Malachy McCourt
Since childhood I've always moved toward self care and that includes who I chose to be in my life with. I got into and have been in relationships all my life and all of us have been humans. They are people not projects which I get to design and manipulate. I have learned in the program that accepting them for exactly the way they are is the true definition of love (without condition) and without judgement. Sometimes by behavior we look the same and other times different. Wanting my relationships to fit within a certain mold is not unconditional love for me it is self centeredness, I have a habit of wanting things the way I want them and will habitually try to fulfill that addiction.
What I have learned in recovery is that my boundaries must have gates to at times allow myself out and others in so we can "experience" each other. If there were no gates I would miss good stuff as well as locking out what I might then fear. With growth in Al-Anon the fears get less and less and the boundaries shorter and shorter. Not too long ago my boundaries were so rigid that I was shutting out family members except those in program. I was missing good experiences and not taking as good care of myself as I should. Control is a sign of fear (for me) not love.
Good thread..((((hugs))))
-- Edited by Jerry F on Monday 23rd of May 2011 01:03:47 PM
He got clean/sober through NA and still goes to meetings weekly (he chairs a meeting). He takes it very seriously. If he went off the wagon, he would go WAY off and never come back because his sober time means too much to him. He has told me this repeatedly. I know his "disappearing acts" don't involve drinking/drugs. He's fine when he comes home, and he DOES tell me where he was if I ask. He just thinks he shouldn't have to check in with me. He's been better about it since we discussed it in counseling, and his therapist explained that it's just "accommodating my needs" which results in both of us being happier. But now the similar issue has occurred in not having to "check in" with me at social events. He just doesn't seem to CARE that his behavior upsets me. So my dilemma: are my requests "controlling" or are they just looking out for my own emotional needs? I honestly think I'm just looking out for my own needs (FOR ONCE) - but perhaps because he's not used to it, it annoys him. I dunno. He accuses me of having a "my way or the highway" outlook on things. Which I honestly don't believe because he pretty much does WHATEVER he wants to do it - I only ask to be kept in the loop as to his whereabouts, which I think is pretty "normal" in a committed relationship. My main problem is how do I just "get past" the fact that he screamed at me in public and threatened me? He is trying to act like nothing is wrong. When I asked him why, he said he's just trying to move on. I told him I'm not ready to move on and that this is a SERIOUS issue that needs further discussion, and that I'm not even sure I want to stay with him. He said he has only effed up this bad once in 4 years and it won't happen again. I asked him how he would do things differently next time, and he said he'd just walk away from me. Which he usually does, but this time I was SO upset that I wasn't going to not have my say. I have feelings too, and I have the right to express them without being threatened! It never occurred to me that I was "pushing him too far" because I was simply talking to him, not screaming or trying to make a scene. And he had NEVER reacted like that before. I guess now I know better and the time to have my say is not when he's all fired up. Which SUCKS. I usually stuff my feelings, and I'm trying not to do that anymore, but with a partner this volatile, I guess I still have to sometimes.
Dear Lyn0202, The observations and comments by the other members seems spot on about self-care.
HOwever ther is another area that I know about. ****ADHD****Some of his behaviors that you described literally jump right out of the book!!
You might save yourself a lot of needless anguish of questioning yourself by going to the internet and bookstore (amazon) and educate yourself as to the nature and symptoms/behaviors of ADHD.
I had a girlfriend who drove me mad with some of the same things your boyfriend does. Especially, being 3hrs. late for all kinds of appointments---and when she showed up, seemed surprised at my irritation. And lots of other things!!ADHD has a tremendous negative impact on relationships, and it takes tremendous patience and knowledge of the condition to survive it. It can be done, but both partners need to know what they are dealing with.
Some have suggested that he might be sipping---he might be--or not. It will reveal itself if he is. But please don't discount ADHD until you know more.
Others who know about this area can maybe weigh-in here to give you more perspective on this.
This is my observation. I hope it is helpful for you.
Otie - you are right about the ADHD, and I need to keep taking that into account. Lack of impulse control and rage ARE symptoms. He takes his medication, and Strattera has helped ALOT with his anger issues. I suggested that perhaps he may want to talk to his doctor about his dosage next time he sees him. I understand that some of his behavior may not be his "fault" but I still need to determine how to handle myself when he acts like that. What really pisses me off is that I am 110% supportive of him - his recovery, his hopes and dreams, his ADHD (I help him stay organized and handle his business affairs because he just can't cope with the paperwork/details). But when I need some support, he makes it seem like I am asking for SO MUCH. Our relationship feels very unbalanced....it's all about HIM. Which is my fault for letting it get that way. Gotta get the focus off him and on me, no matter what. 50/50 would be nice!! : )
Dear Lyn0202, O.K., I see that you ARE educated about ADHD.
It does seem like you do a lot of caring for him. I agree with you that you need to put your focus back on you. An unbalanced relationship, as you say, is a bad deal.
You have a lot of issues to deal with, don't you?
You seem aware enough to already know that you have to go for help. That some change is going to have to come.
The good news is that you can always come here also.
Looking forward to your future posts.
Sincerely, Otie
-- Edited by Otie on Monday 23rd of May 2011 01:35:45 PM
Alanon can help you learn how to focus on you. Other people have been my obsession for so long...and now I am looking more and more at me. Its hard. But I am doing it. I hope you are getting to meetings for you :) Glad he does NA. Thats great!
__________________
-youfoundme
Let go and let God...Let it be... let it begin with me...
I have never understood the need to know where they are or what thier doing , if he is sober relax and get into self care you really dont need the argument , prepare supper eat if he isnt home and save his for later .. Plan your day , waiting for someone to tell you thier plans so you can have a good day just dosent work for me anymore .. I started to leave notes telling husb what I would be doing that day it just made me feel better * kept me out of the well he dosent tell me stuff * and voila soon he was leaving me notes to let me know what he was doing . no arguments what a relief .. as to the threat to knock you down well that is totally unexceptable behavior no one should have to live in fear . good luck and have yourself a great day regardless of what he does . Louise
PS . I had to get rid of the fantacy of how a relationship should be and accept what was offered or not ,the choice was mine .
My own opinion, I think the idea of "checking in" with your partner at a party is an optional thing -- some couples might do it, some not. The key is not whether he does it or doesn't do it, or whether you demand it or don't demand it. The way I see it, the key in every relationship is what you do when you don't agree. How does conflict get negotiated? Because there will always be disagreements, whatever they're about.
The issue of violence in the relationship is a different order of magnitude. The way I understand it, you need a lot more remorse and insight from him to be more confident that it won't happen again. His way of dealing with it right now is to say it won't happen again and want to move on. It's unknowable why he's reacting this way -- he could be dismissive, he could be ashamed, he could be avoiding the thought, he could be over-confident in his self-mastery, or a dozen other things.
So the question you're left with is how to think about this more serious question when he's not on the same page about discussing it. That requires a lot of thought. The help of a sponsor and some meetings might help bring clarity.
That's just the way I see it -- take what you like and leave the rest.
My exAH did that often. He would never tell me what he was doing. He'd call and say he was leaving work and coming home, and I'd make dinner. Many, MANY times he would not come home until the next day, and would not answer the phone if I called. I don't know where he was or what he was doing. I tried telling him that it was just common courtesy to let me know if he wouldn't be home or if he had a change of plans. He said I was controlling and trying to keep him on a leash, and refused to tell me anything. We butted heads over this often. For years it was a source of frustration and something I tried to change about him. I was never successful. Just like I couldn't get him to stop drinking, I also couldn't make this undesirable behavior any different. I could only decide what I was going to do.
Turned out that for me, that behavior (plus some other stuff) was a dealbreaker. However, the problem was mine. My exAH had never been any different. From our first date, he'd been exactly the same. He'd frequently have plans change and not call. He'd frequently say he was going to be somewhere and then not be there. This was not new stuff. From our first date, I had been making attempts to change him - I'd been attempting to explain why he should call, and logically convince him to do it my way. He was right, I was controlling.
I also believe that I am entitled to respect, and I do not consider not calling and not coming home respectful. For the couples that don't tell each other what they are doing and are fine with that arrangement, great. That arrangement does not work for me, though. I set a boundary about that and I followed through. We aren't married anymore. I no longer tolerate that junk.
My AH now is very considerate, and always has been. It's not that I tell him what I can and can't do - I don't at all. He does it on his own initiative. We both feel that this is important, and we're on the same page about it.
I don't know if it's an alcoholic thing, or just a personality thing. Some people do inconsiderate stuff regardless of whether there's drinking involved. Some people don't consider not calling inconsiderate. Whatever the arrangement, both people should be happy with it. If you knew that the way things are now are just the way things are going to be, would that be a dealbreaker? If it is a dealbreaker for you, you have choices. For me, control = trying to make my exAH change and behave in a way that he did not want to behave. Self care = ending that relationship because i was not happy with the reality of the situation, and finding a guy that treated me the way I wanted to be treated.
-- Edited by White Rabbit on Monday 23rd of May 2011 03:20:16 PM
-- Edited by White Rabbit on Monday 23rd of May 2011 03:21:52 PM
I really can't thank everyone enough for your support and sharing. It has been very helpful. Going to counseling tomorrow (he called to make the appointment and said, "It's kind of an emergency. I effed up again."). Seems he's starting to understand the significance of the issue. My fear of the whole not checking in thing is that we will eventually become just roommates. When you are so far apart as a couple that you don't know what each is other is doing from one day to the next, that, to me, is not a great relationship. We are both so busy that if we DON'T schedule some time together, we won't spend any time together! Sunday's used to be "our" day but that fell by the wayside. Again, my fault too for not being consistent and reminding him that that's our day and neither of us should make other plans. I just feel that without the common courtesy of checking in with each other and trying to schedule some time to BE together besides "Good morning" and "Good night," what's the point of even being in a relationship? I saw more of him when we weren't living together! Again, thanks for being there. I'm going to meetings but will be out of town for a couple of weeks so will likely be relying on this board for support until I get home and can connect again, get a sponsor, etc.
Lyn I just wanted to throw out a few books that I'm beginning to read right now to try to understand how my dh's ADHD is affecting us. See, he was sober for 15 years yet he still had all the personality problems whether he drank or not and I still had all my codependent problems, too, LOL. Anyway, we've got our own long story on here which is going well right now but I still have that 'wonder when he's going to blow' thing in the back of my mind. I started researching some books to see if I could get some understanding. There's a book called "Is it You, Me, or Adult ADD" that seems promising and also "The ADHD Effect on Marriage". You might want to research them to see if they could give you some insight. My dh has trouble with anger management and negativity and I know a lot of it is a combination of things: biological, the environment he was raised in, and his past use of alcohol to numb himself in his teens and early adulthood.
