Does anyone know if this is normal behavior for children of A`s - Al-Anon Family Group

Samsgram · Senior Member

Does anyone know if this is normal behavior for children of A`s

atheos · Senior Member

Growing up with an alcoholic or other volatile family member is a scary and unpredictable experience. Many children raised in such situations become "chameleons" -- whatever you want them to be, they are. It's *not* manipulation, it's fear that if they don't do it, you won't love them.

What I see in this situation (and this is just my opinion) is an intense fear of disapproval, from you or her mom. It's easier to say "Grandma won't let me play with the toy" then it is to say "I don't want to" and risk the alcoholic's unpredictable reaction. Similarly, if she knows you wouldn't approve of her going to the movies that late, she'd be afraid of you finding out because losing your approval might mean losing your love, or some other horrible disproportionate reaction. ...not because she believes you personally are the kind of person who would react that way, but because growing up as the child of an A teaches you to be wary of everyone because other people are dangerous and unpredictable, especially the ones you love.

That sort of behavior probably isn't intended to be manipulative, it's probably coming from a place of not understanding/recognizing *unconditional* love. If you grow up thinking the world is a scary and unpredictable place, and that other people will behave erratically, you do what you have to to protect yourself.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

hi, in my experience it is the fact that your g daughter feels safe with you.So safe that she takes her frustrations out on you.

I would not take it personal at all She is a very mixed up little girl. The last thing she needs is to know you are hurt by her.

We are adults, when it comes to kids, it is my belief we need to be strong and wise for them. That does not mean we don't make mistakes. It is very ok to apologise to them if we do!

hugs,deb

Otie · Senior Member

Dear Samsgram. Thank you for posting this thread.

I can't say much to address your situation as I don't feel confident enough in this area, honestly.

But--I am gaining from the EXCELLENT responses you are getting.

God bless grandmothers like you who do care so much and give so much to the little children. My grandmother did it for me. Without her in my life, I hate to think what would have happened to me. I just can't overstate the importance of loving grandparents. To me, they are like agents (angels) of God.

Sincerely, Otie

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Aloha Sams...Your grand-daughter is caught up in the middle of a life threatening disease of the family. She's only 7 years old, didn't come with a book of instructions on how to live in the insanity of alcoholism with others who are deeply affected by it and has no idea of how a 7 year old is supposed to be in a "normal" or "abnormal" situation. She isn't doing anything to hurt you that you are not allowing to hurt you. She just "is" and it's crazy. When I was living within active alcoholism I could have said I was living on Mars and that would have been understandable. When my children were living in it the same discription could have been made by them however insanity is a much more clearer description. My grandchildren who are the children of parents who come from within the disease are at times very dysfunctional...mind, body, spirit and emotions and at the same time so are their parents and other relatives.

Have you acted on the suggestion of getting to face to face meetings of the Al-Anon Family Groups, working the program and reading the literature yet? You are the only one that you can do anything about...the rest of it you are powerless over...from all of my experiences. I give my children and grand children the benefit of my recovery and then I let them go completely trusting my Higher Power to guide them as HP has guided me. That is the best I can do...or anybody for that matter including Public and Private services.

Insane behavior is normal behavior within the disease of alcoholism and other addictions. (((((hugs))))) smile

Samsgram · Senior Member

Well, thanks to all who responded.. Gives me something to think about.

Jerry, I sometimes feel that when I post you repeatedly suggested that I get
to f2f meetings. What gives you the idea I don`t attend?
I also feel that you may disagree along with others @ f2f meetings with my choice
to be very involved with the care of this grandchild.

When a baby is with you from day one and she tells you consistently how much
she needs and wants you there because she feels no one else is there. How dare,
I abondon her? Maybe this is a poor choice on my part. Maybe this why I am having
such a hard time when I see her act disloyal to me that it hurts. Or at least this is how
it feels to me. Meetings help to teach me how to become a better me and hopefully
this child will learn to see some positive behavior. Its never to late to grow. smile

White Rabbit · ~*Service Worker*~

I am an adult child of an alcoholic. I was certainly a chamelion my whole life. I would be whatever I needed to be, and say whatever I needed to say, to keep things just as smooth as possible. Sometimes I acted out from the stress in various ways - most of my acting out was something self destructive to myself. I didn't have any adults with whom i felt safe to be honest, to let my guard down, etc.

I don't think her behavior is designed to hurt you. I don't believe the behavior of anyone who grows up with an alcoholic or addict as a parent should be taken personally. While the child may have positive role models such as yourself, there is still a dysfunctional element to her life. Not saying that she needs no structure and no discipline - but realize that just like the behavior of the addict cannot be taken personally because it is just simply not personal, neither can the behavior of family members. It's not about you.

-- Edited by White Rabbit on Sunday 22nd of May 2011 06:45:41 PM

-- Edited by White Rabbit on Sunday 22nd of May 2011 07:50:18 PM

maryjane · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi, I think you are the adult. She is the kid. She has no idea what "loyalty" means....can't spell it....can't use it in a sentence. I think you are doing a fantastic job at giving her probably the only stability she has. Just keep on doing it, no matter what she says, how she acts, what her momma says. You have to keep on doing the next right thing by her. When it comes to your daughter keeping a 7 yr. old out until midnight?.....well, what can you do about it? Let it go. Let God take care of it. You keep on being the fantastic grandma that you are. I love my grandkids too.

Jennifer · ~*Service Worker*~

Hello (((Sams)))

My best guess and only a guess is that your gd knew her being out late, although something she probably wants to do, would upset you and wished her mom would not have said anything ... because conflict between any of the people she relies on in the unstable environment causes her stress. But that is just a guess from a grown up people pleaser child In my experience as I took care of me and found more serenity I was better able to see through the fog which people were using manipulations and who was doing the best they could at any given time which made making boundaries and dealing with anger and resentments easier.

Your post reminded me of my frustrations at people who misjudged and manipulated me or were living in their own reality of my exAH's addictions. When those situations came up and I had a hard time with all those emotions, I found it helpful to examine my acceptance of being powerless over alcohol, powerless over the alcoholic and powerless over how alcohol affects not only the alcoholic but everyone else in the situation except myself. By revisiting my acceptance I grew stronger in remembering that I only have power over me, my expectations of how people should or should not act, I have compassion for how living around alcoholism affects others and as hard as it may be sometimes, I get to practice letting go of those emotions that cause me more pain than anyone else.

Prayers and wishes for you and yours.
Jen

-- Edited by Jennifer on Sunday 22nd of May 2011 09:44:56 PM

-- Edited by Jennifer on Sunday 22nd of May 2011 09:53:04 PM

Samsgram · Senior Member

I know you are all right and I should not take it so personally but there is just
something about a kid your with all the time, well, okay a lot of the time. Then
she goes with her parent and when her parent tells me she is going out. The child
hears from me that I know she`s going out and she yells out to her mother" good
going ma". I said, why did you say that? and she out and out lies to me and then we disconnect.
I do understand she is just a kid and a product of her enviorment. But, don`t lie to me.
She said it because she didn`t want to hear me get upset that she shouldn`t be staying
out so late. I understand this...
I think I felt like it was the two of them against me. Because this is how her mother talks. Very sarcastic.. It was downright frieghtening on two counts. The lie and acting like her mother. This is probably why I am hurt and scared..

kitty · ~*Service Worker*~

Kids are a product of their environments. It sounds like you are expecting her to act differently than what she is learning ~ which is impossible for a child. She reflects the lies and manipualtions she is learning.

I am an ACoA - a kid who grew up in this disease. I can tell you, she is doing exactly as she is learning. And the fact that yoiu are "mad" at a child - shows that you are contributing to this problem. As an adult, you should not take what a child says personally. You ought to have (or think about developing boundaries) so that you can discern what is the the truth and what is the disease.

You cannot "help" to raise a child and then expect anything from them. A gift of love is giving from the heart and having no expectations about future behaviors. You are expecting some sort of "return" on your investment of time with the gd and that is extremely unfair and it is manipulative on your part.

Kids in dysfunction learn to lie, manipulate, to blame and to self-sacrifice. No doubt she is learning how to protect and make excuses for her mom's behavior (and disease) bc that is what happens to us when we live with addiction - we learn to not have our own basic needs - and- we learn to put others in front of us. You will never win trying to get in between a child and their parent/s. It simply will back fire any way you attempt it.

Accept your gd child as she is and do not try to change her or take what she is doing personally. Love is acceptance, emotional support (listening and empathy - not judging) and forgiveness. Learn to seperate her from the disease and then you wont take it so personally - bc it is not a personal attack, she is merely acting out the disease. Be the adult and learn all you can about how we enable the disease -bc- we do all contribute to the disease directly until we learn how to use different techniques in program.

Blaming your gd will only hurt you. Blaming your daughter for your gd also will only hurt you. Blaming others is how we stay stuck with our own issues and unresolved feelings. If you have emotions that are bothering you - it is up to you to learn how to deal with them and resolve them - that price should not be paid for by ur gd bc she will have to grow up and learn how to rectify her past growing up with her own mother in her own life, as an adult. Perhaps if you grab on tightly to alanon and learn how to work a solid, conscious program - she will follow you into recovery one day. It all begins with us, if we dont learn to forgive and stop demanding others to apologize - we wont ever get our own miracle in program and life back from this disease. Focus on what is great about her and love her in spite of what she doesnt know. As adults, we need to be the grown up/emotionally mature ones.

Otie · Senior Member

Dear Samsgram. I hear you, that you feel criticized or blamed by some of the posted comments.

I went back and read over all the posts. I know that this whole issue is very emotionally charged for you. As a grandmother that is very invested, I think that is understandable.

You know how I feel about grandmothers, Samsgram. This is why I am going to say to you, honestly, that the members who responded really do mean to be supportive for BOTH you and your gd, as I see it. Sometimes we are sooo close to a situation that we can't see it as clearly as someone from a more objective distance. Our own subjectivity can get in the way---I know that so well, myself.

I once--years ago, read something that Yolanda quoted: "When you give anything to someone else, it is a gift if you don't expect anything back. If you do expect something back--it is a manipulation." This has been helpful for me to sort out my own motives when I feel conflicted.

Samsgram, It is so easy to forget that a young one does not have a fully developed brain yet and cant process like an adult. That is why we call them "children". We just can't expect adult reactions form a child.

Sam, no adult (parent, grandparent, or otherwise) can expect validation OR invalidation by a child. It is a relationship that requires true altruism from us more than any other--in my opinion. We give because it is right. Pure and simple. No matter how tempting it is to want secondary gain.

Sometimes, it it is the most loving thing to be honest. Sam, I see the other members as giving you honesty out of love. I really do see that.

PLEASE DO THIS: Give at least 24 hours to considering all their comments with a totally open mind. To see if you can see some value in it. Because you and you gd both deserve to get as much value from their wisdom and experience as possible. This is what I have done when I have felt criticized before. You can't loose anything, and you just might gain some additional insight.

Samsgram--I offer this in love. Pleast take what you need.

Respectfully, and lovingly, smile Otie

Jennifer · ~*Service Worker*~

Samsgram wrote:
I think I felt like it was the two of them against me. Because this is how her mother talks. Very sarcastic.. It was downright frieghtening on two counts. The lie and acting like her mother. This is probably why I am hurt and scared..

Hey Sams,

I can really relate to this idea of a "hurt and scared" reaction.

My fear reactions come about from seeing or hearing something in life that make me think the BIG chaos is about to happen again. After finding some peace and working hard to make my life the way I want it, I had a bad episode with this last year. My fears of my life becoming unmanagable due to my exAH being released from prison overtook my serenity and knowledge. I reacted with paranoia and the desire to fight back before anything had even happened. It took months to get back to feeling that I can make the next best decision for myself, can keep my serenity and that I need to take care of myself first. I have to pay special attention to times when I am projecting or what iffing or looking at other's motives rather than at myself. I am trying to learn to recognise that fear reaction so it does not take hold like that again. When I am able to set that fear aside and respond to events in life from a grounded peaceful mindset I feel so much better about myself that all the work is worth it.

Jen

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