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Hi everyone. I could sure use some input on a subject very close to my heart right now.
I have done lots of reading and get what appears conflicting explainations, depending on the source.
Does the A/addict ever feel remorse for the pain that they inflct upon their loved ones??
On one hand, some say that the A suffers profoundly from guilt, shame and self-loathing (and other similar feelings). Others proclaim that the disease protects from those feelings--that no one matters more than the alcohol and that any appearance of caring is merely a convenient manipulation to gain another's cooperation with the disease.
Also, I have heard that in AA that taking inventory on harm done to others and making amends is part of working the program. How does this fit in?
I am hurting deeply from the blaming, criticizing, lies, verbal abuse, lies, betrayals,...It would help me, I think, If I knew there was any awareness of the pain that has been inflicted on me. I think I could detach easier if I knew there was still an empathetic person in there somewhere under the disease.
I would so appreciate if you all could share some of your thoughts/experience with this. Believe me, any enlightnment would be comforting to me right now.
Thanks. Love, Otie.
-- Edited by Otie on Thursday 12th of May 2011 06:42:38 AM
I don't know if I can answer your questions, but I can share my experience.
On rare moments, I get glimpses of my AH's pain and guilt. They are fleeting and last for only a few seconds: those moments when he gets tears in his eyes or when he acknowledges his lies or when he says he is in pain.
My 2 cents: I believe my AH does feel the guilt and pain for what he has done to me and, most importantly, to himself. He does not have any tools, except alcohol, to deal with the guilt and pain. So, he drinks. And the drink takes away the guilt and pain. But, then there is more guilt and pain. So, he drinks more. It becomes a destructive cycle to numb himself to the world.
I don't believe my AH feels remorse, though. At least, not yet. Remorse, in my definition, means he is ready to admit his wrongs and make amends. He isn't there yet. So, I find ways to heal my own pain through Al-Anon.
Thank you for posting. I struggle with the same feelings myself. I am trying to move on and forget about what he thinks. It can't really matter. Just my opinion. I am looking forward to hearing others responses.
I absolutely think the A is riddled with guilt. I think guilt is one of the things that keeps them in their disease. I know my son feels so guilty for breaking his family up and for causing so much chaos in the family. This is why they need a program of recovery. The steps help them to deal with the guilt they have inflicted on themselves. I can remember years ago when my dad was in rehab (he use to go every now and then to keep from going to jail). The counselor told my mother that my dad was so hopeless because of all the guilt he carried around for so many years. My dad never recovered and back then you really never heard a lot about AA and the steps.
Maybe teenagers don't feel the same guilt that adults feel until they mature and have families. My A brother has never been married but he felt a lot of guilt about what he was putting my mom through. I am sure that is not the whole reason he stopped the alcohol. He was sick and tired of being sick and tired and he was on his own to financially take care of himself.
My guess is that the answer is different for different people. My exAH has Asperger's and he has never understood why other people have emotions and why they carry on about them. When my mother died he was baffled and furious with me for being sad. "You didn't live with her anyway. She wasn't there then and she's not here now -- what's the difference?" He truly doesn't get it. He doesn't feel a lot of emotion himself about very much either, and what he does feel he doesn't recognize. So I don't believe he's hiding any sense of guilt deep down. He thinks others' reactions are their fault -- if he deceives you and you're upset about it, you're just making a mountain out of a molehill. Plus I think he feels a bit sense of entitlement -- "I deserve to go on benders because I have a lot of stress because I'm not making as much money as I should be" -- and other people's trouble and pain are not on his radar.
I'm saying all that despite the fact that he's an easy-going guy -- the up side is that he has no vindictiveness or meanness (because he doesn't have strong feelings of any kind). He's just made that way. When I realized that he was never going to feel sorry for what I had to deal with for him, in a way it was liberating -- I stopped waiting.
My ex-AH is not aware of the pain he caused or causes his family and friends. At least there is no signs of guilt/remorse. Yesterday, he did say that he felt ashamed of going back out and as a result will not return to his AA groups. He says he will try another group.
My ex-AH lost his job in 2009 because of his 2nd DUI. He was fortunate that he had enough years in to retire. The past 3 months he vacationed with his brother south of the border. He just returned.
During his time away, I found Al-Anon. I finally really realized that all my manipulations over the years to get him to stop drinking were not only futile, but hurtful to him (and me). So I invited him over last night to apologize f2f. (He has a great loss of hearing and can easily misconstrue what is being said to him; therefore, I wanted to be f2f for this.)
He said he appreciates that I now understand. I was hoping that he'd apolgize for his mistakes and the pain he has caused his family, because that would be a sign of his recovery in action. But there was no inkling of awareness on his part. He only added that my job contributed to the breakdown in the marriage. I didn't tell him that I stayed in my classroom long after I needed to because it was a way of postponing coming home to his condition. He doesn't get it still.
So even after two 30-day rehabs over the past three years and some AA under his belt, he doesn't get it. He is deep in denial. It hurts to witness it.
And too, he went to the doctor yesterday because he has experienced numbness in his toes and the balls of his feet. He says that the doctor thinks it's because his body is reacting to his reduction in alcohol consumption.
I researched "alcoholism and foot numbness" last night. I found that there is a condition called "alcoholic neuropathy" which is damage to the nerves that results from excessive drinking of alcohol.
Both of his legs have changed shape to a slight, but noticiable degree. His right knee is much larger. I think his body is showing signs of alcohol abuse. But yet, he tells me his feet are numb due to his reduction in alcohol consumption. This story of his is hard to swallow because he came back from vacation - a place where in the past years, he has always drank, fished, & slept, only to get up the next morning to do it all over again. Alcoholism renders a once-smart man, brainless.
I've had a little setback this morning. But I'll refocus. Last night, I allowed myself to get sucked back in to his drama.
I think there is hope from some remorse to be felt IF there is good recovery. Lack of it is part of the disease. (There are exceptions, as the one Mattie has shared - Asperger's).
-- Edited by GailMichelle on Thursday 12th of May 2011 09:06:57 AM
-- Edited by GailMichelle on Thursday 12th of May 2011 09:35:51 AM
__________________
You have to go through the darkness to truly know the light. Lama Surya Das
Resentment is like taking poison & waiting for the other person to die. Malachy McCourt
My abf tells me all the time (the morning after) how awful he feels about his addiction. He does feel terrible guilt and remorse. And he drinks to feel better or uses drugs. I feel guilt too when I have gone into my snooping mode or checking or questioning. I am getting better at catching myself doing it, but I still do it...I hear him say when he is drunk how depressed and awful he feels. There is no reason for me to beat him with the proverbial stick (or myself) anymore. I need to find my own peace and alanon is helping me see that....
__________________
-youfoundme
Let go and let God...Let it be... let it begin with me...
When I came into the program of Alanon I felt scarred and humiliated by all of the painful moments as you described from the alcoholic. I was a hot mess.
I think grace for me in program was to see my part in the whole process. It was through the fourth and fifth steps was able to see how I judged, criticized, physically and verbally abused and harmed my alcoholic. I had turned into a monster with responding with behavior in kind. I was not this person I had become. Fighting fire with fire didn't work for me anymore. I knew I needed help.
It was only until I went through the steps myself that I could finally separate the man from the disease. I could see his struggles coupled with the guilt and shame. He has made amends to me many times but that is something I just don't wait around for. I still practice living admends to him for my part. I know a better way to live through the alanon program and I practice it one day at a time.
We have a clean slate to work from each and every day. I thank God for that awareness.
I shadow tommyecat in saying I used to fight fire with fire and wait for my A to admit all his wrongs. I now realize I have a big enough job of my own sweeping up my side of the street. When I focus on me and work the steps within myself, it helps me to move forward in my recovery. I turn things like my A completly over to my HP everytime I start taking his inventory or start feeling he owes me an explanation of anything these days. I also think every A is different and no one can answer your questions without knowing your A more deeply. Keep working your program and taking care of you first!
__________________
God grant me the serenity To accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
Just some basic facts...Alcoholics are fully human and all humans have feelings...some know and know that they know and some don't. There are some differences twix human beings...gender and age are the biggest two and so we are more the same than we are different. When we speak on the similarities we have awakenings when we speak in the differences (we all at times like to think we are different) we apply denial and other thoughts which are not realities...only thoughts. The short of it from my experiences and from studies and counseling experiences and listening to the fellowship for many years is ... Yes Alcoholics feel remorse, especially those who have value systems which they violate while under the influence of alcohol which doesn't only mean being physically drunk. Until we find deep level sobriety we are always under the influence...heck I've even said that just being in an AA meeting was proof that I was under the influence...I am alcoholic. I am human. I have a value system (how I want to be treated and how I treat others) and I have felt deep remorse for those who I have deeply hurt in the disease...mind, body, spirit and emotions. Good thread!! (((((hugs)))))
Gail, first of all, thank you for responding with your experience. I value it.
Also, I feel compelled to respond to the situation of you husband's numbness of the feet. I am A Physician's Assistant and worked for a time in the Dept. of Neurollogy at a University Medical Center. I just had to gasp (partly in amusement at his cleverness--although I realize that there is NOTHING funny about alcoholic ravages on the body) at his presentation of the reason for this. Of course, it is from excessive consumption of ETOH and NOT reduction in consumption.
It is the norm, however, that patients only absorb a portion of the information given at time of visit--due to anxiety and sometimes due to denial (hearing what they want to hear). This is pretty normal for all of us. It is also possible that he only NOTICES the numbness when he is not intoxicated---so, he might associate it with not drinking in his own mind. Anyway, it makes a clever story to present to you!
Dear Mattie, thanks for taking the time to share your experience with me. I have known three people (personally) with aspbergers and understand the utter frustration you must have had in dealing with your husband! You must be a very patient person at baseline!
Thanks, Love, Otie
-- Edited by Otie on Thursday 12th of May 2011 04:35:13 PM
-- Edited by Otie on Thursday 12th of May 2011 04:45:00 PM
Dear Jerry F, I want to thank you so much for your candid openess. I am thankful to you for this. It helps to actually hear from someone who has had your exact experience. It carries great weight!
To everyone who has so generously responded to my question---Thank you. It really helps for me to look at this from each one of your eyes. I am digesting as much input as I can get. As you all can guess I carry a lot of pain on this issue.
Please, anyone who is just reading this, If you have a story to share, I want/need to hear it. Bless every one of you!
Love, Otie
-- Edited by Otie on Thursday 12th of May 2011 04:46:28 PM
Otie, there is a lot of twisted logic and rationalization that goes along with active addiction. Some addicts take no responsibility and seem to feel no guilt...some are self centered in a way that they think everything is their fault and they are such low lifes that it is worthless to even get sober. It runs the gammet, but I can tell you in my experience that all alcoholics and addicts place too much importance on self and preserving their own ego....whether it comes in the form of just being A-holes to everyone around or being a self-pitying slob (which is what I was)..it is still mostly all about the addict/alcoholic.
I always felt plenty of guilt, but all I did was whine about it, it was exaggerated, and I never made true ammends through growing up and living differently (until AA). Hope this answer helps some.
