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Ok, so, I know this is not a good idea and I am working towards getting a new therapist, but I'd been seeing the same therapist my bf introduced me to, when we first started seeing him about my exabf's drinking.
Back in January, I got into an argument on the phone about my ex's drinking (while drunk, not a good idea), and he ended up putting his gun in his mouth. That incident has been haunting me ever since.
I wanted to call 9-1-1 and I should've called 9-1-1 but he told me, if I did that, he'd take 12 people out with him.
I thought that I could just go to him the next day and get him to see his therapist.
He did start back at the therapist after that, but seems to have quit since I broke up with him (I guess he was just going to placate me.)
Anyway, I've still been seeing the same therapist. He told me, my ex admitted to putting the gun in his mouth but said he didn't mean anything by it.
Let me ask you guys something. As far as you know, isn't a therapist supposed to report something like that?
I know we need to let go of our qualifiers esp if we've separated from them and all that, but...my ex has TWO guns. One is a rifle. There are some scary aspects of this guy I didn't want to face. He has anger management issues. He is very paranoid. He's a bit of a survivalist.
I never really liked that side of him. It's in stark contrast to the more artistic, loving, affectionate side of him.
I just think my ex could be a powder keg who's going to blow at some point. Add all those things I mentioned, plus ALCOHOL? It's a deadly combo.
My therapist said, if my ex were to kill himself tomorrow, I could in no way shape or form blame that on myself. I dunno-maybe if I'd called 9-1-1 when I had the chance, his guns might've been taken away..
Oh, and I debated at the time telling his family but his parents re worthless. They've been in denial about his drinking as long as I've known them. If I were to tell them now, they'd think it's sour grapes over the breakup.
I just feel like, the therapist has a responsibility to do something about this, since my ex admitted he did it. Am I wrong?
I don't have any experience w/r/t what a therapist should/should not report.
I did notice seeing a lot of information about HIM, What do you want to do you? What kind of life do you want? What kind of action are you willing to take to get there with him or without him?
Hmmm...I have been thinking about this stuff a lot b/c my AH is threatening to kill himself about 3X/week lately. I don't have the answer for you. However...I do believe that if your ex decides to kill himself..he will. Sure you could have called 911 and the guns might have been taken away...but if he really wants to do it, he'll find a different way without the guns.
As for the therapist. I am sure that if the therapist feels his client is a threat to himself, then he has the legal duty to report this. There is a clause at the bottom of a contract you sign with your therapist (I have a copy upstairs from my AH's therapist: It states that if the therapist feels that my husband is a threat to himself or anyone else, then the proper authorities must be contacted). HOWEVER...maybe it only applies to certain therapists...for example I am SURE a psychiatrist has to report it. I am pretty sure a therapist does. A social worker has to too (for Pete's sake I am an elementary school teacher and I am required by law to do so), so I am pretty certain that anyone who claims to be therapist is supposed to get him help AND should not have disclosed that info to you. Not only was it beyond professional lines, it was cruel. It just put more fear, guilt and worry on your shoulders. Nice job, huh?
Anyways, I don't know if I am entirely right here, but I am pretty sure.
Please, I caution to be fair before maligning the therapist. It might feel good to project anger onto the therapist---but, at least be fair. It is best to direct anger directly to it's source.
After all, the therapist gained knowledge only well after the fact. The ex indicated to the therapist that he wasn"t actively suicidal. Were the guns legal? If so, under what authority would they take them away forever?
drummerchick423, I certainly recognize how scary it is when guns are involved, especially with someone who is "paranoid" and has a history of anger management issues (AND DRUNK). Do be careful about engaging in arguments with such individuals. It could be like poking a stick at an angry bear. I'm not trying to be an alarmist----but, the statistics on domestic homicide in this type of situation are frightening.
I send you my empathy, concern and encouragement as you are going forward with your life.
Love. Otie
-- Edited by Otie on Sunday 1st of May 2011 08:55:46 AM
My insanity was all about trying to change the things I couldn't change. Can you change your ex? Can you change how a therapist practices their profession?
I totally relate to wanting to prevent a suicide, my brother-in-law threatened suicide for years. We all tried to help him. He killed himself in 2003. We were powerless.
Powerless.
Powerless.
Powerless.
Powerlessness is the bedrock of my program. I surrender to the things I cannot change, and for me, I know I cannot change people. I used to think I could have my way with people. I'd say something... they'd appear to take it well and that encouraged me and my big fat ego. But if they didn't do something different, I'd bring it up again.. and again... and again.... I'd have to be more clever, maybe raise my voice, provide some hard data... etc, etc. I had to get my way, dammit.
Today, for some things I think it's okay to share my thoughts, God gave me a brain to use. However, I am a firm believer in... They gotta need it. They gotta want it. And most importantly.... they gotta ASK for it. If they're not asking me.... I am off my side of the street!!!!
The difference between who I am today and who I was pre-program is... al-anon has helped me develop a pretty good habit of turning things over to a Power Greater than myself. If I'm keeping someone under a microscope, I still think I can control them... I am playing God.
Surrendering releases me of my delusional responsibilities. I much prefer to get still and let the Creator of the Universe run the show. More serenity. Less drama.
-- Edited by glad lee on Sunday 1st of May 2011 08:59:08 AM
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The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
Drummer, Looking for Peace is right -- guns or no guns, someone who is bent on taking their own life will do it by whatever means are available. And that is completely out of anyone else's control.
When a patient reveals some degree of suicidal ideation, the therapist has to assess the danger of the patient following through -- this usually involves investigating the amount of planning the patient has done around suicide (when, where, how). A patient who reports several weeks later that they had made suicidal gestures but "didn't mean anything by it" doesn't present any immediate danger to self, so I can see why it might not merit an official report. The therapist's work in that case would more likely be preventative and entail something like working on a plan to access immediate supports if the thoughts reoccurred.
At the very least, there would be a file notation, and an accumulation of similar notations might be used in future as evidence of danger to self or others for taking protective action at that time. It is actually quite difficult to have someone committed involuntarily, especially when they may do a 180 reversal at the hospital doors.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Take what you like and leave the rest.
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Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could... Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Emerson
He could decide to take me out with him, given that he blames me for everything-I am the big bad crazy ex now.
ythannah wrote:
Drummer, Looking for Peace is right -- guns or no guns, someone who is bent on taking their own life will do it by whatever means are available. And that is completely out of anyone else's control.
When a patient reveals some degree of suicidal ideation, the therapist has to assess the danger of the patient following through -- this usually involves investigating the amount of planning the patient has done around suicide (when, where, how). A patient who reports several weeks later that they had made suicidal gestures but "didn't mean anything by it" doesn't present any immediate danger to self, so I can see why it might not merit an official report. The therapist's work in that case would more likely be preventative and entail something like working on a plan to access immediate supports if the thoughts reoccurred.
At the very least, there would be a file notation, and an accumulation of similar notations might be used in future as evidence of danger to self or others for taking protective action at that time. It is actually quite difficult to have someone committed involuntarily, especially when they may do a 180 reversal at the hospital doors.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Take what you like and leave the rest.
I understand you wanting to replay the situation and think you should have done something differently. These kind of thoughts have haunted me for years.
What is done is done. All we have is what we can do now.
The first thing that I thought of as well was the therapist not reporting the incident. I have been to therapists and psychiatrists and I also believe that this IS included on the papers you have to sign. That is why I always monitored my words carefully. I do remember that.
Also, I believe that is illegal for the therapist to be telling you anything about him unless (I think) that he has signed a paper for you to be able to receive this information and be allowed to talk with the dr. I also remember taking my (now) ex husband off of that list as he was getting too involved I thought.
If you worry he is a threat to you then I would find out what kind of precautions you can take. I don't know the law. Do what you can do for you in the present. Self torture is not healthy. Just my experience. Take care.
Yeah-I agree with you. If the therapist is sitting around talking to me about him, if my ex does go back to therapy, will he also do the same w/my ex.. tell my ex things I told him in confidence?
This is why I am switching to a different therapist, as soon as she returns from vacation.
I think in the last few months before I severd things between us for good, I think I was really only talking to him because I was frightened by the gun incident and hoping I could defuse the incident. It was like, if I could maybe convince him to go into therapy, he'd be less likely to do something extreme, like go postal at his work or something. He called his guns his "exit strategy.'
I know I can't live in fear, but I also feel like I need to not be stupid. If the ex does contact me again, I could get a restraining order, but I wonder if that is ilikely to just tick him off. He has yet to give me reason to think he could become a stalker, but you never know.
I'm considering moving to a different city, frankly.
member922 wrote:
I understand you wanting to replay the situation and think you should have done something differently. These kind of thoughts have haunted me for years.
What is done is done. All we have is what we can do now.
The first thing that I thought of as well was the therapist not reporting the incident. I have been to therapists and psychiatrists and I also believe that this IS included on the papers you have to sign. That is why I always monitored my words carefully. I do remember that.
Also, I believe that is illegal for the therapist to be telling you anything about him unless (I think) that he has signed a paper for you to be able to receive this information and be allowed to talk with the dr. I also remember taking my (now) ex husband off of that list as he was getting too involved I thought.
If you worry he is a threat to you then I would find out what kind of precautions you can take. I don't know the law. Do what you can do for you in the present. Self torture is not healthy. Just my experience. Take care.
I can actually respond to this one from personal knowledge and experience. As a therapist we are only obligated to break confidentiality in the case of imminent self harm or harm to someone else. What this means is we do not break confidentiality unless the person states "I feel like killing myself right now." A hospital will not keep a person who is not currently suicidal. If the client states "yeah I put a gun in my mouth but I'm feeling okay now" there is not enough imminent danger to involuntarily commit them.
By the way, I had a similar issue with my ex...he took an overdose of my medications and then called his mother to say good bye. His mother called me to "save her son" and how she could not handle "burying a son." I did call 911. He was combative and they almost tased him. He curse me out on the way out the door (of course he was way drunk) and then again when I followed the ambulance and saw him in the hospital as they were giving him charcoal to absorb the overdose of meds. It was a surreal set of circumstances. He was baker acted after that (in florida that is involuntary commitment). Those were some of my lowest moments. The relationship only lasted a couple months after that.
Yeah, it is surreal. It feels insane. I felt like I was between a rock and a hard place. If I called 9-1-1, he said he would take 12 more people out besides himself.
pinkchip wrote:
I can actually respond to this one from personal knowledge and experience. As a therapist we are only obligated to break confidentiality in the case of imminent self harm or harm to someone else. What this means is we do not break confidentiality unless the person states "I feel like killing myself right now." A hospital will not keep a person who is not currently suicidal. If the client states "yeah I put a gun in my mouth but I'm feeling okay now" there is not enough imminent danger to involuntarily commit them.
By the way, I had a similar issue with my ex...he took an overdose of my medications and then called his mother to say good bye. His mother called me to "save her son" and how she could not handle "burying a son." I did call 911. He was combative and they almost tased him. He curse me out on the way out the door (of course he was way drunk) and then again when I followed the ambulance and saw him in the hospital as they were giving him charcoal to absorb the overdose of meds. It was a surreal set of circumstances. He was baker acted after that (in florida that is involuntary commitment). Those were some of my lowest moments. The relationship only lasted a couple months after that.
Just another reason to be happy it's over DrummerChick...
Nobody needs that kind of drama. I am so happy I don't have to deal with it any more. You should never be put in the situation to have to negotiate with a crazy, violent, substance abuser...yet the problem here with so many of us on this board is we either are doing it or have done it repeatedly.
