"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

Chelle3 · Veteran Member

One thing I can't understand about alcoholism..

DadtoCandE · Veteran Member

In the big book they mention alcoholism as being an allergy a lot. I was told by the doctors at my wife's treatment center that they have isolated addiction to a particular gene. I never liked the cancer analogy myself, but it definitely has it's place. The problem with alcoholism is that once it progresses an important organ needed to fight it has been severely damaged. Will power and intelligence (at least in my anecdotal experience) act against recovery in the initial stages. Because the will is with the disease and the intelligence is used to rationalize the behavior.

I am convinced that there is a physiological basis for alcoholism, outside factors may contribute to it's onset or its severity, but there is something more to addiction then a lack of morals or will power. I didn't marry someone who lied to me and tried to manipulate me on a daily basis, those traits came with this disease.

My mother in-law and I recognized a completely different person as my wife reached the later stages of alcoholism.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

HI

If will power was all that was necessary to cure alcoholism there would be no need for world wide AA.

White Rabbit · ~*Service Worker*~

Respectfully, I disagree with Dr. Laura.

My mom got diagnosed with some kind of liver issue here recently. It's a result of her alcoholism. She quit drinking for about 2 weeks because she was scared. During this period, she was dry but not working a program - so not sober, in my opinion. But eventually, the compulsion to drink came back and she's right back where she started. She knows she has a liver problem, but the compulsion to drink is stronger than the fear about her health. She does not have the power to just will away her drinking.

I've seen my AH struggle in and out of sobriety for a year or so. He had more than 5 years before the relapse, and he has 2 years now. During the drinking, he knew he didn't want to be drinking. I saw him cry and beg for help. I saw him say with all sincerity that he wouldn't drink that day, only to be drinking an hour later. Until he became fully committed to treating his disease and jumped in to AA with both feet, doing whatever his sponsor suggested because the things he had to do were better than the alternative (getting drunk), he couldn't stay sober. His will wasn't enough.

In my opinion, the fact that all these people have dire consequences and yet continue to drink in spite of them is proof that it's a disease. I've had a couple of alcoholics in my life say that AA doesn't work. These alcoholics are still drinking, and still proclaiming that they can control it. They can't control it now any more than they have ever been able to control it. Although I have strong feelings that alcoholism is a disease, I've stopped trying to convince these people. Point is, they don't believe alcoholism is a disease - and they're still drinking. Those alcoholics that begin to operate under the premise that alcoholism is a disease that can be arrested with a lot of effort can sometimes get and stay sober. For me, this is all the proof I need. Whatever keeps people sober.

-- Edited by White Rabbit on Wednesday 20th of April 2011 07:26:58 PM

Chelle3 · Veteran Member

"If will power was all that was necessary to cure alcoholism there would be no need for world wide AA."

I agree, the will I think I'm referring to is the choice to seek treatment. I can see not seeking treatment until you face seriously negative circumstances, what I don't understand is how some seek treatment when they hit bottom and others don't. It looks as though it is a conscious decision to seek treatment or not.

Maybe what I don't understand too is how the brain is affected regarding choices and decision making. I get a tinge of it every once in a while, like when I have a seriously bad day and work and feel like a failure. My job is so stressful and I had one night when it was so painful, I just wanted something so badly to make the pain go away. The pain was unreal. Í realized then that that must be how my AH feels. He drinks to relieve stress from his job. At that moment I got that part of it. The rest I'm having trouble with.

Chelle3 · Veteran Member

Thanks White Rabbit. Your story helped. I haven't personally seen anyone struggle to stop yet. Just flat out refusals. To hear how hard it actually is, is very helpful. I wish my husband could talk to me about the struggle, but he flat out refuses to even admit he has a problem, let alone talk about how hard it is to deal with.

White Rabbit · ~*Service Worker*~

In my opinion, when the pain gets bad enough, that's when people make the decision to make a change. Until then, there's no incentive. I think that's why it helps the A when we stop taking care of them, catering to them, cleaning up their messes, getting them out of trouble, etc. When they have consequences, they have more incentive to make a different decision. If nothing changes, though, nothing changes - if there's no pain, why stop?

I guess that we can never really know what someone else's rock bottom is. It's hard to see people have really horrible consequences - like driving drunk and killing someone - and yet continuing to drink. Or going to jail. Or having a horrible health consequence. Or ... on and on and on. Just goes to show that everyone is different, and there's no one-size-fits-all "rock bottom" that is the same for everyone. The people that recover sooner or with less consequences just have a higher bottom.

KLotus · Senior Member

I can relate. I understand your pain and confusion.

My husband would admit that he "drank too much," but even after telling me that he knew he was an alcoholic (after meeting once with an addictions counselor), he told me in the next breath that he "is different." He believed he could overcome this with will power. He believed that his pain, traumas, experiences, and especially his intelligence placed him in a different category from "everyone else." He could stop drinking, for a period of time. He could sometimes exert an amount of control over his angry, alcoholic behaviors, for a period of time. The drive always returned. I know that my husband's greatest fear is that I will leave him. He was still driven to (secretly) drinking.

My husband has now begun an outpatient treatment program and AA meetings, resisting every bit of the learning and the process. He wants nothing more than for me to be with him again (I and our daughter are living with his parents). Still, he cannot control the negative behaviors that come with alcoholic thinking and feeling. It turns him against his heart, his own soul. As much as I would like to degrade him in the same ways I feel he has abused me, I do believe he is truly sick.

At the same time, there are choices that can be made - e.g. the choice to get help. I, too, struggle with people who do not choose to take steps toward healing and wellness. In my mind, it is up to me to choose to not surround myself with these people, this atmosphere of illness. Which is what I am trying to do. However, no one could have made me choose to get help for codependency, etc., until I truly became aware of it and wanted to get well.

This is my struggle - if my wellness is a choice that is left up to me, then why do I stay?

Why do you stay?

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

KLotus

freeagain · Veteran Member

Alcoholism is the only disease you get yelled at for having. I watched my uncle die from the disease at 55. I did NOT believe it was the exact same disease that my young, handsome, smart husband had. I was wrong. My H has the exact same disease only it has not yet progressed to the point it did with my uncle. But it will. It's a nasty disease. There is no cure.

Imagine having a disease that no one believes is a disease, everyone is MAD at you for having it, tries to control your disease for you and tells you YOU can cure your own disease if you were just stronger/smarter/better/more loving/had more will power. Really, seriously, take yourself out of yourself, forget YOUR pain and point of view and imagine for one second the fear and pain of knowing that you are absolutely out of control of yourself.

Now imagine that someone tells you you will lose everything you love and then your life because you have no will power. So, you try to stop but you can't. Everyone says you're doomed and they HATE you for it. They take away their love and support.

An AAer comes along and tells you that he can help...all you have to do is show up. What would you think? When all the people you love and trust have told you you are hopeless and hurtful and that you can stop if you really want to and then some virtual stranger says they can help you...just by sharing experience strength and hope....who are you going to believe?

Alcoholism is a disease. I didn't believe it either for many years. Until I watched my H slowly develop into the same behaviors as my uncle. H was losing everything that he had worked for, everyone that he loved and he truly couldn't stop. He went to AA and things were better for a long while but then the relapses happened. It is a sad sick disease that many MANY people refuse to acknowledge because to do so would mean they were worng and they would have to change their view of life.

It is hard I know but I really like what KLotus said :

This is my struggle - if my wellness is a choice that is left up to me, then why do I stay?

Why do you stay?

Chelle3 · Veteran Member

"Why do you stay?"

We almost divorced. Told the kids and everything. Then he begged to come back, promised to get help for his anger, help for coping and help for drinking. We were both already seeing separate therapists. He agreed to marital counseling.

From that day until now, about a month, he has changed. He isn't irrational, angry or blaming. He is honestly making an effort to save our marriage and is probably doing a better job than me.

I stayed because I love him and as long as the verbal abuse and blaming isn't there I am OK with being here. I've changed a lot in the past 6 months though. I work and could be financially independent. I'm going back to get my masters so if I needed to I could live alone and support my daughters well. I do think part of me is not committed because I know the other shoe could drop and the behavior that I will not live with will come back and I'll be forced to make a decision about leaving.

I wish I could just let go and let be, but some part of me knows that reality is the behavior will come back and that's not something I can live with. I need to focus on being thankful for what I have today. Usually I can do this and am happy, but something about the last couple days has me down.

ythannah · Senior Member

I have no difficulty with the disease concept of addiction intellectually, because I am aware that addiction causes physical alteration in the dopamine pathways of the brain as well as the impulse control centers, which has been demonstrated using MRI technology. These brain changes make things like "choice" and "willpower" much more of a struggle. The brain begins to perceive the chemical substance as being just as essential to survival as eating or sleeping -- eventually more so.

I also understand it emotionally, having watched my mother die of cirrhosis. That woman was absolutely mortified by her own alcoholism, and would never ever have chosen that fate for herself -- but the disease was stronger. Even a heartfelt desire to quit sometimes isn't enough.

I think bottom is just the point where the pain of remaining addicted exceeds the pain of quitting.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

It is a disease like diabetes. He can put it in remission. It is not fully out of his control and he deserves the consequences it brings even if it includes losing you. Understanding that alcoholism is a disease only helps you in terms of knowing he didn't plan for it to happen and didn't ask for it. What he does to keep the alcoholism in remission (AA meetings, having a sponsor, working the steps) is up to him. He IS responsible for his drinking and recovery. The fact that it is a disease is not to be used as a cop out.

Chelle3 · Veteran Member

Thanks ythannah & pink chip. I'm a nurse, so I do understand the dopamine pathways and the effect of alcohol on them, but it's so hard to believe when that is contrast with someone who insists that alcohol has no control over them, they are happy drinking, they have no problem and can stop at any time but choose not to. Reality looks and talks totally different than what is supposedly happening in the brain.

drummerchick423 · Senior Member

It's interesting that you posted this tonight. I was just talking to my niece, and we were discussing alcoholism and other addictions..her boyfriend is addicted to food. She tries to encourage him to eat healthy but just like with any addict, you can't pressure/push/force anyone to change their behavior.

She said the same thing you did -that she just lets him do whatever, but she feels like, if he gets diabetes, or some diet-related illness, she will be angry. she might not want to even take care of him.

I don't know what the answer is here. My exbf is an alcoholic in denial, and I was unable to stay around-I mean, he made suicide threats and engaged in some crazy behavior. I can't imagine if he had started experiencing health problems. I mean, he's overweight. He eats horribly. There will probably come a time he starts having health issues. I don't want to be there for that-the disease has caused me enough problems already.

I am interested to see everyone else's responses.

Chelle3 wrote:

I know that understanding alcoholism is supposed to help us to better live with active a's. There is one element of alcoholism that I can't reconcile in my head as being a disease, that of being able to quit if your will is strong enough...
Please let me tell you what's led up to this and why it's affecting me so much. I'm a nurse on a cancer floor. We also get all the isolation pts in the hospital. Each week I get a couple of patients who have cancer or other disease directly related to their alcoholism or smoking.
The patients that bother me the most are the ones with liver disease: either failure or hepatic encephalopathy. Their mental status has regressed to that of a 12 yr old and they are often no longer continent although they are only 50 something yrs old.
My grandpa was an alcoholic and my most terrifying memory is of him throwing everything out of the freezer and then passing out on the floor and peeing on himself.
What bothers me so much is the fear that this could sometime happen to my husband. I know it is far down the road and unlikely, but I can't stop the feeling of anxiety I get from it.
I wouldn't mind if ended up in this condition due to some uncontrollable circumstance such as a traumatic accident or cancer, but this is something he is actively causing himself. I don't think I could care for him if he endced up this way due to alcohol.
I can't forget one quote from Dr. Laura that alluded that alcoholism is NOT a disease. Cancer is a disease, you can't just "will"it away, alcoholism can be willed away. To me this shoots the disease theory in the foot.
Has anyone else dealt with this effectively? I've tried meditating it away, giving it to my higher power etc, but it's not working, maybe because I just don't "buy"that it's out of my husband's control.

drummerchick423 · Senior Member

Plus, I'm sorry but "Dr." Laura isn't even a real doctor. I don't think she should be respected as a source about addiction.

ythannah wrote:

I have no difficulty with the disease concept of addiction intellectually, because I am aware that addiction causes physical alteration in the dopamine pathways of the brain as well as the impulse control centers, which has been demonstrated using MRI technology. These brain changes make things like "choice" and "willpower" much more of a struggle. The brain begins to perceive the chemical substance as being just as essential to survival as eating or sleeping -- eventually more so.
I also understand it emotionally, having watched my mother die of cirrhosis. That woman was absolutely mortified by her own alcoholism, and would never ever have chosen that fate for herself -- but the disease was stronger. Even a heartfelt desire to quit sometimes isn't enough.
I think bottom is just the point where the pain of remaining addicted exceeds the pain of quitting.

Chelle3 · Veteran Member

Drummerchick, I think I would have the same feelings with diabetes too. I also know if I was diabetic I'd have a really hard time giving up sugar, it would be REALLY hard, but I would still have a hard time watching someone else loose their health.

It's so much harder for me since I've started back nursing. I see horror stories everydyay: people with trachs from laryngeal cancer from smoking that are still smoking and losing additional parts of their necks, people that are in diapers at age 56 due to liver encephalitis, people without limbs and necrotic private parts from diabetes. It's really starting to get to me.

It's much worse than when I was a nurse 15 yrs ago. Either people are taking worse care of themselves or we're keeping them alive much longer through much more severe diseases.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Aloha Chelle...Coming to understand Alcoholism as a disease helped me alot and changed my perspective from my wife is a bad person and doing this purposefully to just hurt me to she has an obsession and compulsion of the mind and an alergy of the body. I could see both clearly after that and I got the information from an early AMA definition on alcoholism. Helping me to ounderstand didn't help me better live with the alcoholic because as the definition continues to mention is that the disease affects the mind, body, spirit and emotions of the alcoholic. I was put on alert that because it is a progressive disease if she didn't stop all of it would get worse and it did. The definition also mentions that alcoholism affects everyone it comes into contact with and when I was in college they use to attempt to put the number of 20 people affected by 1 alcoholic. There actually isn't a set number that is affected. I've seen it do more at times and less at times. It can and does destroy families.

Alcoholism can never be cured. It can only be arrested by total abstinence and attempts to abstain come with side affects; sometimes perverse and these too also affect others.

I'd suggest getting as much information as you can...using an open mind from as many sources as you can including the face to face meetings of Al-Anon and open AA meetings. AA and Al-Anon literature is very helpful. Many people who don't understand have opinions which reveal denial and lack of awareness...that is why I keep and open mind.

Keep coming back. In support (((((hugs))))) smile

GailMichelle · ~*Service Worker*~

Chelle3,

one of my sons is a RN; it's his 4th year of nursing. The first 3.5 years he was in a hospital setting in the oncology ward. He, too, said it was very disturbing what he saw - how many of the patients seem to abuse their bodies as their diseases got progressivly worse.

He recently transferred to the hospital's behavior health center. He says the pace is not as hectic as the hosptial's. He's more relaxed and it doesn't bother him to work with mental illness.

drummerchick423 · Senior Member

I know what you mean, and I have to say, many times I yelled at my exabf for his alcoholic behavior. I got angry a LOT. But...I think, I would have to be superhuman NOT to get angry, at times. I mean on his birthday last year, the guy threw things at me for no reason, called me the C word, and threatened to have me locked up in the looney bin (even tho HE was the one acting nuts.)

He lied to me about so many things-I couldn' t help but get ticked off when that happened.

As for people denying that the A has a disease, well, I denied it for so long because HE denied it. Alcoholics are masters at playing manipulative mindgames. And unfortunately, unlike cancer, alcoholism isn't really taken seriously in our society. Nobody really educates young people about what to look out for, to determine if they have it.

It's cunning, baffling and powerful.

My heart goes out to active alcoholics-it really does-but being on the other end is the hardest struggle oyu can ever experience. No one handles things perfectly. Thank god for al-anon.

freeagain wrote:

Alcoholism is the only disease you get yelled at for having. I watched my uncle die from the disease at 55. I did NOT believe it was the exact same disease that my young, handsome, smart husband had. I was wrong. My H has the exact same disease only it has not yet progressed to the point it did with my uncle. But it will. It's a nasty disease. There is no cure.
Imagine having a disease that no one believes is a disease, everyone is MAD at you for having it, tries to control your disease for you and tells you YOU can cure your own disease if you were just stronger/smarter/better/more loving/had more will power. Really, seriously, take yourself out of yourself, forget YOUR pain and point of view and imagine for one second the fear and pain of knowing that you are absolutely out of control of yourself.
Now imagine that someone tells you you will lose everything you love and then your life because you have no will power. So, you try to stop but you can't. Everyone says you're doomed and they HATE you for it. They take away their love and support.
An AAer comes along and tells you that he can help...all you have to do is show up. What would you think? When all the people you love and trust have told you you are hopeless and hurtful and that you can stop if you really want to and then some virtual stranger says they can help you...just by sharing experience strength and hope....who are you going to believe?
Alcoholism is a disease. I didn't believe it either for many years. Until I watched my H slowly develop into the same behaviors as my uncle. H was losing everything that he had worked for, everyone that he loved and he truly couldn't stop. He went to AA and things were better for a long while but then the relapses happened. It is a sad sick disease that many MANY people refuse to acknowledge because to do so would mean they were worng and they would have to change their view of life.
It is hard I know but I really like what KLotus said :
This is my struggle - if my wellness is a choice that is left up to me, then why do I stay?
Why do you stay?

drummerchick423 · Senior Member

Chelle, I thin it's a combination of both. We have better technology to keep people alive, even when their quality of life sucks.

And people are less healthy-I heard on CNBC that something like 68% of Americans are obese! We are approaching a health crisis in this country.

I can't imaigne having to face the result of years of careless neglect that you have to see on a regular basis. One time, my exhusband was in the ER with food poisoning, and this guy with diabetes was there. The doctor was talking about amputating his leg. He was chastising him for eating sweets. That just appalled me and from that moment on, my ex and I decided to take good care of ourselves!

Chelle3 wrote:

Drummerchick, I think I would have the same feelings with diabetes too. I also know if I was diabetic I'd have a really hard time giving up sugar, it would be REALLY hard, but I would still have a hard time watching someone else loose their health.
It's so much harder for me since I've started back nursing. I see horror stories everydyay: people with trachs from laryngeal cancer from smoking that are still smoking and losing additional parts of their necks, people that are in diapers at age 56 due to liver encephalitis, people without limbs and necrotic private parts from diabetes. It's really starting to get to me.
It's much worse than when I was a nurse 15 yrs ago. Either people are taking worse care of themselves or we're keeping them alive much longer through much more severe diseases.

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

Some great replies already, and in the end, I don't know that the answer (as to whether or not it is a disease) is all that relevant.... My wise old sponsor used to guide me to focus on the "whats" and not the "whys", and told me to always ask the question - "if I knew the answer to the question that is bothering me, would it really change anything?"

For the record, I put "Dr. Laura" right up there with "Dr. Phil", when it comes to credibility issues.... if they were convinced that saying 'alcoholism is caused by martians invading their brains' I am sure they would BOTH have segments on this, and scan the ratings..... "Moron" is too nice a word for either/both, and their "expertise" is all too often compromised by television and viewer ratings.....

Take care

Tom

KLotus · Senior Member

Chelle,

Thank you for your very honest response!

I stay, and fight for my family and marriage, for many of the same reasons. I love my husband, and believe that things can change. I know he wants to change, but is in the throws of early recovery and facing his demons (or running from them, currently).

I am intrigued by your response because I have had to face the same fears, and held the same beliefs: I will stay, as long as I and my daughter are not being abused. My husband has continued to be verbally and emotionally abusive - so I have left for the time being and asked for my own space while he gets help. I am scared, because he is still blaming, angry, and harsh, but everyone here has helped me to understand that this is to be expected right now.

Some time ago I suggested marriage counseling. I made some calls, and somehow we were having trouble getting in. In the meantime, things got worse, and my personal counselor told me there would not be much healing until he first got help for his Alcoholism. My husband was insisting, however, that he didn't need help, that we just can't communicate, that I don't hear him, and so that we needed marriage counseling.

I am just sitting tight for the time being, looking forward to being able to go to counseling with my husband someday. I pray for his recovery, mine, and those who love him.

I finished graduate school a couple of years ago, and my doctorate classes, but can't seem to find the time to finish my doctorate (between moving out, taking care of my daughter, and trying to get well). Things with work changed, and I am in search of a job as well again, as my husband has been laid off since my daughter was born last year.

Again, thank you. I hear a great deal of strength in your words.

KLotus

John · ~*Service Worker*~

I am glad you brought this up as a topic on the board and have responded to your question(s) in a post at

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=42727&p=3&topicID=42428736

I hope you will take the time to read it and that it helps you better understand the disease concept.

John

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Just becuz one is A does not mean much by itself. There are so many variables! Environment,genetics,damage, health, stage,conscience,spirituality and more. Will has nothing to do with it.

Like the first of the twelve, they are powerless.

Addiction is a powerful illness. A person cannot will away cancer anymore than they can will away addiction.

From what I have seen, an A may get into recovery for using drugs, but then they are a workaholic, or eataholic, or fishingaholic,.

Also their brains and bodies are so compromised no way can they just quit.Also we need to remember they are not wired like a non A! I feel you are thinking how YOU feel, not how the A feels. We cannot relate to an addict if we are not one,and they cannot relate to being a non A.

As far as your career, I worked with very retarded and handicapped kids and young adults, and with at risk kids. At first it was hard. I even would feel angry.Then I started thinking what is the most loving thing I can do, and feel? I looked at everyone with love.

Even now if I see an A or a homeless A whatever, I smile and am kind as I am to everyone.

To me I could have just as easily been born like that. Whether they respond in same, is not matter,.

To Thine Own Self be True, For me its easier to be loving, than question or be angry.

This is what makes me want to help my ex A with his dieing, if I am given that blessing.

Love and thanks for all you do! debilyn

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

One thing that helped me early on accept that alcoholism is a disease was when I read a column somewhere from someone actually discussing mental disorders and viewing them as a disease. The writer asked "when will society start to accept that the human brain is an organ subject to malfunction just like any other organ in the body?"

That's what helped to to accept that it's not *just* a mind thing. If a person has a diseased brain, then of course it's going to malfunction. Just as if someone has a diseased heart or liver or kidneys, etc.

Hope this helps.

maresie · ~*Service Worker*~

The ex A who I was with for more than 7 years got Hepatitis C and had a muscular dystrophy condition. There is no question that his active drug usage contributed to his health problems.

I spent a lot of time in rage and in paralysis over his behavior and self destructiveness. What I think I found so difficult was his alternating absolute denial of me and then his demands. To be ignored one minute and then needed the next is heady stuff.

I can't really comment on Dr. Laura or even Dr. Phil. I do know that the book Getting them Sober (which is offered above) was one of the most precise measures I've found on understanding addiction.

Of course since you are around sick people you have reason to be afraid. Anyone who is around an alcoholic has reason to be afraid. For me over reaction was always the main course and always what drained me to the pulp.

My younger sister (who is by now no longer worthy of being called younger (she is decidly middle aged like me!) is an alcoholic. In photos she looks really quite ill. She has two children, a life that seems interesting and lots of reasons to live. As far as I know she's never even considered she is an alcoholic. The disease is cunning baffling and powerful.

For me personally the issue is always about how do I behave around an alcoholic, how do I manage my boundaries, how do I manage my grief, anger and response to them. I used to believe I was responding when in fact I was always over reacting. Its indeed hard to find a measured response to someone who is absolutely destroying themselves in front of you. Its certainly even harder to find a way to respond, thrive and not allow someone who is considered a partner throwing their life away. Yet in al anon we do it. We stop allowing the disease to drain us. We stop being astonished by the behavior of the al coholic. Quite how is the miracle, some of it is in really coming to an acceptance of the disease. That doesn't happen overnight. In other ways really feeling "heard" is so crucial. I know I am heard by my sponsor and by people in Al anon that isn't the case in the rest of my life.

I'm glad you are here. This is a great place to be. This is a great place to work on you and learn to not be destroyed by the disease. It is also a place to come to a point of peace. I raged at the ex A for a long long time. I raged and ranted for a long long time. Now I don't feel the same pull to do that. Of course I also moved myself out of his radar but there is no question his actions and his disease almost took me to death's door.

I look forward to getting to know you.

Maresie.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"