"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

mjhyankees · Senior Member

What Higher Power????????

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

Sorry to be blunt here MJ... but isn't this pretty much the same struggle you've been having with Al-Anon as well?? You know you are miserable, but perhaps not (quite) willing to take the steps you need to address this..... Al-Anon, a HP, and a change of perspective offer you the CHOICE to get better or not..... much like our A's - some will choose to get better, others won't.....

There is an old saying from Al-Anon circles that seems to fit well here - "try us for six meetings - if you aren't 100% satisfied, your misery will be gladly refunded"

I guess it gets back to the choice in front of you.... if you are truly miserable, then dive head first into a recovery program of your own.... In many ways, if we don't choose to change ourselves, then we kind of lose credibility for poking holes in the program....

Take care
Tom

sodone · Newbie

Hi All,

I am somewhat new to this chat room stuff. I dated someone years ago that was recovering and found myself in the al-anon rooms. Currently, I am deep in the throws of my son's using. I tried all that I could, but you can lead a horse to water, but you certainly can't make him drink!

I do believe in my higher power and if I didn't I could not have made it through my life. Unfortunately, I come from an extremely addicted family and the disease is rampant. I am the only member who has not been addicted to anything, but my family, and I am the oldest of 6 kids. My brother just went to rehab two days ago for 25 days after another dui.

I pray every day for the strength to make the right decisions. I need help with staying the course and remembering that this IS a disease and I can't control it. I can't save my loved ones and I have to remove myself from the situations. Not easy, when they call for help all the time. I have a difficult time turning my back and then I start justifying again.

I will continue to pray and hope and try real hard to keep my mouth shut. Not easy. LOL

Thanks for listening.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi MJ

I just returned from my Monday Step meeting and after reading your share I thought of the opening statement that says: Without such SPIRITUAL help living with an alcoholic is too much for most of us our thinking becomes distorted by trying to force solutions and we become irriitible and unreasonable without even knowing it.

I know when I came to the rooms I was furious with HP and also felt my view of the world was valid and that the folks who claimed to have peace and serenity while living with madness were just not real or were pretending.

I am so glad I stayed in the rooms-- Kept an open mind, used the slogans, the steps, meetings, sponsor because like the miracle promised , I too was able to find that elusive serenity in the midst of insanity No I am not always happy and , joyous but I am serene, have courage and there are always many moments in the day I smile and laugh and feel happy That is certainly enough for me

The program works if we work it

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

HP for me, gives me a guide of how to live, tools how to do so. I have the choice to accept and live to the best of my ability.

As far as HP letting me down. Never happens. NO matter what I go through, I always learn and become a better person.For me if I believe in HP, for me the creator, then I believe in the one who turned against the creator, satan.

Bad comes from him, not hp. All the bad comes from him, humans lost perfection when they were first created. You asked about starvation etc.

HP has a plan, for me, my life is working towards being part of this plan.

Life is not easy, so many obstacles. There are ups and downs, just how it is right now.

Its your choice, the life you are living. It is the best one for you and your daughter you feel. So with this choice are the consequences. To not expect these is irrational. Yes its a hard choice, however its yours. I often tell myself to suck it up, it will be ok.

Maybe HP is showing you these consequences to help you grow, help you learn how to accept them with grace.

There are choices. Get a duplex, each live on either side and daughter can go to both. Get joint custody, like you said, she is going to have to have therapy anyway. so why not give her some time to be with just you.

To say I don't get what I want so I am going to complain about what I got is a choice. Not one I would make.

When I read "he fails me" I found that arrogant. I am honest. I own this. I through all the horrible stuff in my life have never felt HP failed me. It would be more I was not accepting what he had given me to get through whatever pain or obstacle it was.
The most perfect human in the world, in my beliefs, went through a horrible death for all of us. Do you feel HP failed him?

There is something called humility. There is a feeling of being humble when things are tough. Sometimes all we can do is breath through the tough times, then we realize we got thru it.

I have suggested to you many times, "nothing changes if nothing changes."

Its like you made your choice, you are of course going to have the same consequences when you make this choice over and over. Its not like it is going to change.
Doing the same thing, expecting a different outcome is irrational and insanity.
What is HP trying to teach you?

hugs,debilyn

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Aloha MJH...I've been in that place also where even my HP wasn't doing what I wanted
it to do. No one and nothing was doing my will and I got as pissed as you are. Not a
good place to be while attempting to manage others.

HotRod nailed the problem and solution from the literature, "Without such SPIRITUAL help living with an alcoholic is too much for most of us our thinking becomes distorted by trying to force solutions and we become irriitible and unreasonable without even knowing it."

For me my HP wills for me peace of mind and spirit...serenity. In order to fulfill that
will I have to let go absolutely. Surrender...not submit.

You're getting back what CG related about not attending enough meetings...You're
getting back your miseries not because the program doesn't work but because you
don't work it on a necessary level.

I'm sure you relate to the first step. You are acting it out; powerlessness and
unmanagability. If you haven't got the power to make things right for you there
has to be a power greater than yourself to rely on and accept can lead you to
Serenity...I've often heard that the shortest prayer for help is, "God please help me"
and then letting go of the fight.

I wish you well and am in support. I never liked being where you are at now.
(((((hugs))))) smile

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

Hello Yankee - I read your post and wanted to try to get a better feel about you before saying what my first thought upon reading the post was so I clicked on your name and read some of your posts from the past - I get the feeling that you are waiting for the other shoe to drop; always waiting for the next bad thing to happen and afraid to really let yourself be happy in the moment because "something" bad is gonna happen. I can really relate to feeling this way because sometimes that's the way my life goes - when I have extra money it seems like if i make plans to spend it then WHAM around the next bend something happens and money is gone.

I truly love the Serenity Prayer - asking for the peace in your heart to accept what cannot be changed (make a list), the courage to change the things you can (again, make a list of what you can change) and - to me the most important one - the wisdom to know the difference. There's a second part to the prayer, I have it on a plaque - it reads: Living one day at a time, accepting harsdhip as a pathway to peace, taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that You will make all things right if I surrender to Your will; so that I may be reasonable happy in this life, and supremely happy with You forever in the next. Amen.

I work to change the way I look at things - thank God, I got the extra work and made the extra money because I had it to pay for the vet when the cat got hit and I didn't have to just put her down because it was all I could afford. I work to see the good in a bad situation, my car wouldn't start but thank God I have AAA; and it helps to think that maybe if I had been able to leave on time I would have been in an accident. (something read somewhere about those who miss planes that crash started that kind of thinking, couldn't say where i read it but it comes to mind and brings relief when I don't seem to be able to leave "on-time"). I am fortunate to have a deep abiding belief in God - I feel for those that struggle to find a definition of Him/HP and I have no answer for how you can identify one for yourself. I'm sorry but hang in there and keep trying, ok?

danielle0516 · Senior Member

Hi ((((MJ)))))

I can sit here and rattle off a hundred things I wish I could change. (But KNOW I can't). I'm not just saying/typing the word 'know', I truly came to believe it. I KNOW I can't. I just don't have that power...even though I wish I did. I wish my husband wasn't an alcoholic, I wish I didn't remortgage our house twice to 'rescue' him from his disease caused debt, I wish I separated our finances a year ago, I wish he didn't also get addicted to pills, I wish ect.. blah blah. What's the point!? I can't change any of that.

We all make mistakes or bad decisions, everyone does, what matters is, did we learn from them? Did we open up our eyes and really learn from them, or, like so many others....did we just justify, not learning anything at all?

I can throw myself a pity party and feel sorry for myself (and sometimes we need to do that to move forward or get it out of our system), but, no good comes of it, so, during one of my weaker moments when I find myself wallowing in self pity, I stop, recognize it, breath and move on.

Sure, I wish this didn't happen to me, why me!! I used to think and say...why me. Why ME? I don't think it was random, I really don't. With respect to 'why me', I think two things. 1) that there is something about me that attracts and is attracted to sick people and 2) that I can handle this. SO, those two reasons - they have to do with me. SO, light bulb, I need to change ME. I didn't 'get' those two things right away, it was a process of self discovery, I guess you could say. In fact, I resisted. I thought that if only he would stop drinking everything would be wonderful. nope.

Just as it is hard for alcoholics to get into recovery, same goes for us. Maybe it's harder for us seeing as there are more AA meetings with more people than there are Alanon meetings. (although maybe that's just where I live). For me, truly recognizing and believing that I had become just as sick and messed up as the alcoholic in my life.....wow, it opened my eyes. I think, in some ways, I'm more f'ed up than my AH. After all, he went to his first AA meeting before I went to Alanon! He admitted he was an A before I admitted I had a problem.

Changing your life, your thinking, your feelings - it's not easy. I hope you find that strength within yourself to break free.

You sound so so desperate and miserable, but, you do have a choice, even if you see it as so shitty that it doesn't seem like a choice at all. I've gone back and read some of your old posts, so I'm aware of your situation (custody of daughter, wife getting half your pension, ect). Tough situation, no doubt, but does fear of leaving that which is familiar also play a role? I know it does for me. I don't want to speak for you, sorry if that's how it comes across, but, from what I'm reading from you, it sounds like, if the above situation with the custody and pension weren't an issue, you would leave. From what I read, it sounds like those are the only things holding you back. Ask yourself, would you fork over whatever thousands of dollars it is from your pension, probably have to retire later, but find peace and happiness, or would you rather retire earlier, but be miserable? I can't say I've walked in your shoes, I'm not pretending, I suppose I'm offering up something to think about. Also, I know many Alanoners who left, then remarried another A, again, because they didn't address their own issues first. Again, this points to the reality that the A's are not the only sick ones. Look at those talk shoes where the distraught woman married 5 different abusers, she couldn't seem to escape that type of person. That's not a coincidence, it can't be!

I'm still with my AH (who is now in his second rehab). I still love him, I think I'm still IN love with him, although, saying "I think" tells me maybe I'm not, but I KNOW underneath this disease, he is an amazing man...so, I guess I'm not ready to leave yet.

But, I can tell you this. When my husband first went to detox then rehab, EVERYTHING scared me, or just pissed me off, even though I wanted him to go. I was pissed I'd have to do everything around the house, deal with the broken furnace, get up earlier to let the dog out in the morning, walk him if it wasn't minus 50 outside, take out garbage which I hate doing, ect... BUT, you know what - it wasn't half as bad as I built it all up to be in my head, and within a few days, I had my routine and it was just fine. I realized, I don't need no man, or anyone to do this crap for me, I can do it myself. And, not only that - I would much rather do it all myself, than have my A here drunk and high, ect... you know the story.

I guess I'm saying you never know...what seems like such insurmountable circumstances, could turn out to be new beginnings, new journeys to happiness.

Every journey starts with that first step.

Take care,
Danielle

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

God gave man free will and he will let us bang our heads into the wall as many times as we have to he is very patient . As has already been pointed out we have a choice as to how we want to live our lives . No One can do this for you.and no one said this was going to be easy , I am not impressed with your reference to tip toeing thru the tulips remark if thats what you think Al-Anon members do who are working hard to change thier lives. If you feel this program is doing nothing for you I would ask you what are you giving to the program ? - do the footwork to get to where you want to be and leave the outcome to God I had to learn that sometimes an answer to my prayer was NO . We may not get what we want when we want it but we always get what we need .but only if were paying attention

Bettina · ~*Service Worker*~

MJ's wife is not an alcoholic, he has never really stated what her problem is or her diagnosis.

I noticed you kept calling your HP (HE) , perhaps you need to expand on what your HP actually is. What and Who is MJ's God. Im sure you can
come up with a God of your understanding, not everyone elses understanding. Have you really explored this?

Also in Alanon we can accept what we want and leave the rest, even if you dont have a HP, the program still works, because the planet operates under
cause and effect. So, if you put nothing in , you get nothing back.

I suspect you havent done the work... Somehow the role you choose is arrogance , "The best I will ever be able to do is damage control" which is your illusion
of the power you think you have over the situation. Are you grooming yourself to be a martyr in your daughters eye's.

You havent posted in a long time and nothing has changed. Nothing will change unless their is change.

respectfully, Bettina

RLC · ~*Service Worker*~

MJ,

I can offer you a proven and tested solution. Try the program. Accept the program. Don't question the program. Apply the program in your life. And work the program.

The Al-Anon book is titled "Courage To Change". The absolute best place to start that change is in f2f meetings. Not the only place, but the best place. It takes effort, willingness, and most of all desire on our part to change. I wanted change when I walked through the doors of Al-Anon. I wanted the Alcoholic in my life to quit drinking. My life was unmanageable. I found out and then accepted I had no control over her drinking. I had to change, and those changes were not for the Alcoholic in my life, but for me to make my life better. I did what I suggested you do also, accept it at face value, apply it, and work it.

I have read all your posts and the replies to your post over the past 7 months since you came to MIP. You have received some wonderful ES&H form members with years in the program who only want the best for you. Want you to have what they have. They know the program works, and expressed to you how their lives have changed for the better. The program is not a part time job, it's a full time job, but the benefit package makes it worth the effort. It only takes practice. Then practice becomes habit. And the habit becomes a way of life.

Effort, willingness, and a desire to try change, by accepting, applying, and working the program. It all has to start with you.

HUGS,
RLC

-- Edited by RLC on Tuesday 1st of March 2011 02:09:24 PM

usedtobeanyer · Senior Member

After many, many years of having no connection or belief in a HP, I have developed a very strong connection in the last 6 months or so. To me, the key has been accepting the fact that everything that happens in my life comes from my HP and most importantly, it won't always be something good. The key is just to accept that your HP is in charge and is working in ways that you may not ever understand. It is sometimes frustrating if you let it be, but if you have faith it can be very comforting.

I have had some experiences in the last few months where I felt so very close to my HP (I wrote about one here), and they were truly wonderful moments that I never would have appreciated if I didn't have this connection.

There's a great entry in Courage to Change about faith...I don't have the book with me but I'll try and post it here next chance I get.

White Rabbit · ~*Service Worker*~

You say your HP fails you as often as he does something for your - and every time you get your hopes up they get crushed.

To me, these things come back to Steps 1 - 3.

Step 1 -we admitted we were powerless over alcohol (or another person, or whatever else), that our lives had become unmanageable.
Step 2 - came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Step 3 - made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of HP as we understood him.

When you have expectations that don't get met (which then become resentments), you seem to think that this is HP failing you. Is it possible that it's not HP failing you at all, but rather that you have not embraced Steps 2 and 3? It seems like when you don't get what you want, you get angry and start to question the existence and/or motives of HP - to me, that suggests that you have not made a decision to turn your will and life over to the care of HP. Rather, you are continuing to operate under the premise that you have control. I operated under the assumption that I had control for years, even assuming that I could control my son's perception of his active A father. I was wrong. I couldn't control any of it. By the time I got here, I was physically, mentally, and spiritually bankrupt. And yet I kept doing the same things over and over and getting pissed off when the outcome was the same as it always was. What sense does that even make?

Nothing changes if nothing changes.

It is not evidence that HP (or Alanon) has failed because the answer is no. Having a good relationship with a HP does not mean that we get everything we want. It means that we can understand and have gratitude that our needs TODAY are provided for. It means that when the answer is no, we can be humble and graceful. Most of all, it means that we can trade being mad at the universe and everyone in it because we didn't get what we wanted for acceptance.

You have made the choice for now to stay in your present situation. That is a choice. There are other choices, even if you don't like any of them or you convince yourself that they are not possibilities for whatever reason. You've said often that you can't leave because of the consequences, but you do not seem to understand that staying there also has consequences. If nothing has changed, the consequences will also not have changed. The consequences aren't caused by the lack of a HP, they are the result of your choice to stay and keep doing the same things over and over. Serenity prayer here: accept the things I cannot change ... change the things I can. You CAN change the amount of effort you put into your own recovery and serenity.

I do not "tip toe through the tulips." That is not what Alanon is about. The program has enabled me to meet life on life's terms for the first time ever, without fear. It has enabled me to stop spending days and weeks in a deep depression telling myself my life is crappy, the people in my life are crazy and inept and do mean things TO ME, and to perpetuate the cycle of depression and hopelessness where I tell myself it's never going to get better and/or it doesn't matter. I'm the best there is at having pity parties. But I've realized that they do nothing to enrich my life, and that they are completely within my control to change.

mjhyankees · Senior Member

Rabbit I hear you but the following things trouble me. I understand when I want riches or fame etc or even a new job that HP may know something about this that would be bad for me and I dont' get it though I want it.
What have I got here? He wants a bad home environment for my daughter?????? I cant' believe that. I've done all I could. I'm in therapy, she's in therapy, I avoid fights and craziness for the most part. And my HP want's this environment for me????? Why????? I can't believe that's true either. But leaving this environment brings a worse set of consequences. Again I'm being asked to pick my poison? Even if for some bizzarre reason this is to teach me something what about my daughter? What does she gain from this situation...she doesn't she loses...that's all that happens. I can learn to be MORE accepting, but I can't accept the unacceptable. I can turn my will over (and again folks I'm not a newbie....many years in program in the past....yes I may be out of practice but none of this is stuff I've not already used in my life) but when I continue to suffer I dont' get it? Again "I" can ignore my wife, my daughter cant'. I can cut her off from money to avoid her spending and deal with the fight over it but my daughter can't cut off the turmoil.
She's the complicating factor. I was in Alanon regularly for the first part of my marriage, when my daughter was born and few years later the problems really hit the fan I began to find that the program doesn't apply to HER! I lost faith. I can fix me all I want...and yes I've much work to do, I know it...but it only helps her to a point. Am I wrong to want better for her? Does a HP NOT want that as well? The only thing I can take from this is my perceived two choices are not the only ones...that somewhere there is a better choice....well Ive been praying for that for years now...so far no good. I just cant' find the meaning in all this.

mjhyankees · Senior Member

thanks usedto.....I too have had some "spiritual experiences" over the years...maybe it was an HP...but having faith when things aren't working is really tough. Again when it affects my daughter that's the worst...I can insulate and protect myself...can't do it for her.

mjhyankees · Senior Member

RLC I was in program for a while (I think 10 years or so). As I posted later I had issues with it when it couldn't protect my daughter. I realize that maybe the only thing I can do is change myself, and that will help....some....but what do I do protect her? I wish there was answer for that....HP has been prayed to alot about this and I'm still waiting for some answer. If me leaving would help, I'd do it...but it doesn't...it makes it worse for her because I'm not there to buffer (my wife picks on her mercilessly sometimes - at least in those cases I can step in between and "take the bullet"). Program probably would make me happier....that would help my daughter as well. But it seems like pennies on a thousand dollar debt...just doesn't do enough.

glad lee · ~*Service Worker*~

I had been in the program for a few years when I finally learned this:

I can't have a higher power and BE higher power at the same time.

None of us can completely protect our kids. My daughter went away to college and was raped by a "friend." Currently she is preparing to leave for Afghanistan with the army. Today, I know this... I am not her higher power. One day I discovered the bottom line, and accepted that even if my daughter comes home in a body bag, it will have been her path to God.

My daughter is God's. God is going to take care of her. She came into this world to evolve on her own path, with her own set of obstacles and opportunities... it has nothing to do with me. As her mother, I was merely the vehicle for her to arrive on this planet. Yes, that was an ego-deflating concept when I first heard it! Thank you God!

There is a plan for my daughter. This is my personal belief today.

Take what you like, mj. I just want you to know that you're not alone, many of us have had to make some tough decisions regarding faith and trust. You can too. It's called complete abandon. Feels good actually.

I have a choice, I can make myself crazy that I can't control the universe, or I can turn my will and my life over to the "care" (to the love and concern...) of God. It's my choice.... and I get to make that choice every single day I wake up. When I'm able to do that, I can relax. God is either everything or else He is nothing... I CHOOSE to believe He is everything.

glad lee · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi again MJ, I thought of you as I read Mr. SponsorPants blog today....

Them: I need to develop a relationship with God.

Mr. SponsorPants: No u don't.

Them: I don't?

Mr. SP: No, because u already have a relationship with God.

Them: Oh. I do?

Mr. SP: Think about it: How could u NOT have a relationship with God?

Them: OH! Right!

Mr. SP: U already have a relationship -- u just need to become more aware of it.

Them: oh. Thanks.

Mr. SP: Actually, thank U.

Them: Me?

Mr. SP: Yeah, I really needed to hear that today.

Them: Oh. Then u r welcome, lol.

parfait624 · Veteran Member

Dear Yankee....
I can relate to the issue with having an HP. I tried alanon, while I find the discussion on this board very helpful and parts of books like getting them sober, I didn't have luck with meetings. The reason was the area I live in is very conservative and very religious. All of the alanon groups were put on by local churches. I was raised catholic but I am agnostic. They kept telling me it was never going to work with out a higher power and I should try to find a church and build a foundation with God. I have a foundation, I just don't believe in it. So I stopped going to alanon. Maybe in a different city I would have had a better experiance. The prayers like serenity are beautiful but just words to me. I am trying to find a balance....how does AA and Alanon work with out including a HP? I stopped believing in HP for a combination of reasons. But a person can never say I don't understand why people do believe God has all the answers ;my minor is in the history of the catholic church, I enjoy the story. Just stay strong and know life always has it's ups and downs.

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

It's been my experience that we're each left to develop our own understanding of a HP, be that HP one of the more traditional religious deities, or the group or the ocean or a tree or the law of gravity or whatever. There's no "right" or "wrong" HP because that HP only works for us if it's understood in our individual terms alone.

MJ - I had to stop convincing myself that when things are miserable that it's because my HP wants things to be miserable for me. My HP comes forward when my eyes start to open to the alternatives and solutions to those miserable situations. My HP doesn't step in and meddle. I'm granted the dignity of free will. Therefore its my will and mine alone that really dictates how miserable my situation gets to become. It's my will as well that can draw me to a place of being open-minded and accepting, in which place serenity can arrive.

If you're convinced that nothing great is ever going to happen, I encourage you to keep going with that thought and really watch the results that come about taking that stance. Ask yourself if you're happy with how that's working for you.

Bettina · ~*Service Worker*~

No matter what you will always be your daughters Father.

You will always impact her life. Whether you are married to her Mother or not. Today most courts do joint custody....so what are you really afraid of.???

Are you afraid to get out of your own way and let God unravel a plan for you.

I say God because thats what everyone else calls it. Me, Im a practicing Buddhist and I can honestly say I dont call it God, but that doesnt mean that there isnt power in the universe and a plan for everyone. Somehow you have to let go and hook onto that positive power that is there for you too. You have to trust it. You have to gain the confidence that even you MJ are entitled to happiness and a good life. Believing will make it so.!

Bettina

flopadopilus · ~*Service Worker*~

Wow this is deep stuff, finding fault in your HP. I come from just about every abuse a child could be victimized with, yet I don't blame my HP, I blame the people in whom didn't do any better. I have read so much great advice already posted. My biggest concern for you is your daughter as I have 2 and can relate to them being around abuse. I believe that if you spend time meditating with your HP and be open to hear the answer no matter what you want to hear, you will be lead. Whenever I find myself trying to control anything I read the serenity prayer and it lightens my load to just control myself. I have felt lots of anger and make the choice over and over again to let it go. All you can do is show your daughter the best you can do for her. Be patient with yourself and remember it takes courage to change and it takes time. I pray for you and your family!

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"