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I hope I can convey in words what I was discussing with my addictions counselor today. When discussing the control issue of my AH's drinking, she told me that I should put down my foot. She told me to tell my AH that I can't have him drinking anymore. That it is detrimental to my mental health and to our marriage and that he needs to stop. I told her what I've learned through Al Anon and through here and she understood but she explained that I've been a people pleaser too long and that if I say, "Just go ahead and keep drinking and I'll learn to live with it", that I'm still causing us unhappiness by just trying to make him happy(by allowing him to drink), which in turn causes me misery.
She mentioned that we started our marriage as non-drinkers and that it was a condition of our marriage(which it was to some degree). I was ecstatic that I was marrying someone who wasn't going to drink and I made a commitment to myself that I wouldn't either. The counselor made note that I can place these requests on him and then she asked me the dreaded question, "What do YOU want?" And, my answer was: I want to go back 1 year, back to when we didn't drink, back to before I made the mistake of allowing alcohol back into our lives, I don't want my husband to drink, I don't want to drink, and I want to live in an alcohol free home. So, that's it. At least I know what I want, but I'm not sure I'll ever get it.
Anyway, I just feel conflicted by her words. I keep trying to bite my tongue and accept his behavior and love him despite the fact that I know he may be drinking and hiding it. Yet, she wants me to confront him and tell him that I want it to stop. Yet, she gave me no advice on directions as to where to go from there? Are there ultimatums given? Do I set a time limit? I don't want my marriage to end, that's not what I want but I felt pinned in a corner by her words. Sigh, I'm just so confused!
aha counselors jeeeeeeze , in my opinion ultimatums never work unless there is a concequence and your strong enough to stand by it . unless someone has lived with alcoholism they just dont understand . I agree you have a right to tell your husb how u feel about his drinking and how much it upsets you , you do that for you then let it go , dont expect it will change anything its just important that you speak up . Please if your not already find f2f meetings in your area give this prog a try for a few months before making any decissions . You may have a completley different perspective in a few months . do it for you . Louise
I have some worries about this counselor. What does she expect putting your foot down will accomplish? Does she expect that if you're firm as she recommends, the drinker will stop? Because we all know that if that were true, there would be no alcoholics. If she is realistic and doesn't expect the drinker to stop, what is supposed to happen after you say, "I can't put up with this any more"? Are you supposed to separate? Because that's a big step and should only be taken after a lot of thought. Or is she just thinking that you should state your position? I can see the value of stating one's position, but not if it leads anyone to believe that things will change with the drinker once you do that.
If your counselor expects your statement to make a change, I would rethink whether this counselor really knows enough about this subject. My AH and I went to several counselors, and they seemed like nice people, trying hard. But they really didn't have an understanding of addiction, even though they said they did. In one case, the counselor got my AH just to promise not to drink any more, and she thought that was problem solved! They all believed everything he said about his drinking, which was very confusing to me as I was beginning to suspect he was lying. It's like they never entertained the possibility that lying was a part of the picture. Pretty much like some of us early in our dealings with alcoholics, before we understood the larger picture more.
So I guess I'd find out what exactly she expects to accomplish with your saying this -- just making you feel better? And at what cost? From what I'm hearing, it sounds as if she might not be on the same page as Al-Anon (and Al-Anon is the only philosophy that's been helpful to me in dealing with alcoholics). But of course you want to make sure you're understanding her thinking.
Hey.. I would try and find a therapist who has Alanon/AA experience, or experience with family systems dealing with addiction.
Otherwise, as Abbyal said, they just do not understand.
I have had experience with so many psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, counselors, doctors ect... who simply put, just DO NO understand addiction, not at all.
I remember when my husband was in a psych ward for suicidal thoughts (as a result of his addiction), upon release the psychiatrists told him and I that he should learn how to drink responsibly and normally, that there was this program that taught people with Anxiety to drink normally, and that he should go to this anxiety clinic, learn to deal with anxiety, then he could drink like everyone else (I wondered if he was High himself). My jaw dropped to the floor and I had visions of jumping on the table, crawling across it, and slapping the man! haha. They just do not get it.
I do think you can tell your husband how you feel, that you do not like his drinking but don't expect that to change everything or for it to be enough to get him to stop. Hell, if that was all it took, there would be no addicts in this world.
I also think you could first think about and decide a healthy boundary that you are able to keep. Something like: "when you drink, I want nothing to do with you". Then, when he's drunk, you have nothing to do with him, walk away, don't engage him, have him sleep in another room or whatever you decide. But, the boundaries are for you, for your own sanity, I think that's important to understand...they are not a way to control the A. As we all learn here, we cannot control them!
Also, in my experience, therapy is useless when the addict is still active. At least couples therapy was. My own private therapy helped a little as my therapist specialized in family systems and co-dependency. When I think of the thousands of dollars we spend on couples therapy, ugg, it eats away at me if I let it - it did not accomplish one tiny bit of good. 2 Alanons meetings did more for me than a year and thousands of dollars in couples therapy did.
Thank you both for the input. I talked to my husband last night about all this and I told her exactly what she said. He wants to come to my session next week and we discussed how she might not be a good fit and that maybe I need to find someone else. Yet, we did discuss how I felt about the drinking and his words to me were: I don't have to drink. If I have to choose between drinking and my marriage, then my marriage wins, no contest there. We discussed how we never set boundaries or limits when we first started drinking again over the summer and we went back and forth ad nauseum about how each of us felt: how I felt about him hiding it and how he felt about my snooping and checking up on him. Turns out that totally backfired on me because once he knew that I snooped, he decided to go all passive aggressive and drink just to piss me off. I also confessed that I was drinking while visiting family without him even after I had a blow up about it and got on him about hiding it and not telling me that he was drinking while traveling (yep, I know; total hypocrite here). He also said that there was a part of him that wanted to get caught and that maybe there was a reason that he got drunk and we came home to find him that way. He has a very good childhood friend who went through AA as did this guy's father who my husband was close with, so he's going to call him for advice. I explained to him that this all fell apart the minute I found he was hiding alcohol even though we were drinking wine together. I told him that I thought that us drinking again would keep us accountable to each other and that it was something we were doing together. Once I found that he was sneaking, etc I got angry and he got more defensive and on and on it goes for the past 6 months. So, again, I explained that we never set parameters, limits, etc and maybe that's both our faults. He agreed but he also said that if this drinking stuff was going to keep making me sick to my stomach and unhappy, that it isn't worth it. He said he wants me to be happy.
So, all that sounds really good on paper. Do I believe it? Maybe a bit, but not completely. I believe he wants me to be happy and I believe that he wants to put his marriage first. Do I think that alcohol will win that battle? I hope not, but I'm not holding my breath for it either. As he said to me last night: We just need to take one day at a time. He's so right about that one, LOL!
Oh, man. I don't agree with the counselor at all. One adult giving another adult an ultimatum is effectively like the ultimatum giver is the parent and the adult that gets the ultimatum is the child. It puts one person in the position of power and the other in a lower position. Adult relationships can't be like that if there are going to be two equal partners. I truly believe that we don't have the right to give ultimatums ... we can just set boundaries ("If you drink, I will do _______ in order to protect myself and the kids.").
Here is my 2 cents: If he is not what we call "a real alcoholic," the ultimatum could work. He would make the logical choice to just quit drinking. If he is progressed as deeply into alcoholism as some of your posts suggest, the ultimatum will do nothing most likely (it will cause a fight...empty promises...maybe an effort at recovery).
I think setting limits, boundaries, and declaring what you will or will not accept is fine...what you are powerless over is what he does in response to your boundaries. I don't know about the counselor's approach but it sounds like a harsh sort of way of saying "To thine own self be true." What is really going to make you happy? You owe it to yourself to pursue that. It is not your lot in life to be married to an active alcoholic. It's all very confusing and there are no right answers.
Like in AA, Alanon, and from Counselors, Take what you like and leave the rest. In the end this is your life and you have to live it for you.
I hope you come up with some answers that make sense.
Your counselor has good intentions, a simple solution for you, and I am sure she means well. With that being said, it is my opinion, my .02 only, it won't work. If it were only that simple. There are very few if any alcoholic's who want or choose to be and alcoholic. Separating the person form the disease is the problem. Speaking to and expressing your thoughts and concerns to your husband is one thing. Speaking to and expressing your thoughts and concerns to the alcoholic whose mind, body, and spirit is consumed and controled by the disease is another.
I am reminded of the time 10 years ago, I had a sink clogged and backed up at my home. I called a friend who was a plumber and asked him would it hurt if I poured 'Draino" in the sink. He told me, "Oh, no it won't hurt anything.......but it's not going to help anything either". I turned my sink over to my plumber, several years later I turned my A wife over to my Higher Power. I put my sink and my wife in better hands.
There's a lot of stuff going on that suggests alcoholism to me here. The excuse of "I was just drinking because you said I couldn't" is so, so familiar. It goes along with all the other "I was just drinking because ..." excuses. The trouble is that the drinkers often believe them -- it isn't their decision to drink, it's that others drive them to drink because ... yada yada. My AH tried to make me the cause of his drinking. If I had that much control, I'd have stopped him drinking. But I didn't have enough control to make him start or to make him stop -- nobody can make that decision except him.
Sadly, I also know those words "I don't have to drink." My AH said them so many times. He never acknowledged that he was alcoholic. A couple of times (like after nearly going to jail for a DUI) he did say, "Maybe there's a little problem with the drinking." But then he'd say, "Since I don't have to drink, then, I'll just stop." No real acknowledgement of the grip it had on him. That's typical for an alcoholic. The disease hides itself from them till they don't know what's crazy and what's sane.
So if your H can really stop, and he isn't an alcoholic, then maybe he should do that and solve the problem. But ... I suspect it isn't that simple.
I also wonder about your decision to drink with your family even though you said you wouldn't. Is there any chance that alcohol might be something you'd have a hard time letting go of? You might take the AA quiz, just for yourself, and see. Here's a link:
http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=71
There's a wonderful new life ahead of you in recovery -- via Al-Anon or maybe even via AA. Hugs to you.
Yes, Mattie: alcohol is a problem for me and that's why I told AH that I don't want the alcohol around. I have already stole from his stash and had my own taste of his goods. Now, I am always scared of being buzzed and feeling out of control so I always stop. I've been like this even when I was drinking regularly in my early 20's. I was always afraid that I would fall into my father's footsteps. I was drinking full bottles of wine alone in my apartment and then I'd go out with friends and they'd wonder why I'd stop at one beer. It's because the wine started my buzz and I didn't want to go any further. I have always struggled with alcohol and my feelings about it and I feel that my life would just be better off without it. So, that's really the battle here and that's one of the reasons that AH has been willing to go along with my requests because I struggle with my own desire and my own demons regarding alcohol. It's going to be long road for both of us. Maybe he'll get rid of the alcohol in the house and just have a beer or two when he travels? Maybe he does have control? But do I or can I? I'm certainly not one to judge him at this point because my own 'problems' are clouding my judgement.
So, maybe that's why the counselor wanted me to set this limit: no drinking at all for both of us. One of the questions she asked me was: Can YOU stop? I told her I already had and hadn't had a drink since early December and that now I feel like my AH's hidden stash is tormenting me and calling me to just try it, again. Quite frankly, it's been very hard for me to have the alcohol in the home and I feel this inner battle that is driving me crazy. Yesterday, after the therapy session I was so worked up that I threw up. Our marriage was hard enough before this whole can of worms got opened up, and now my past demons have come out to haunt me. Honestly, I don't think I'd call myself an alcoholic. I feel like I always struggled because I didn't want to turn out like my dad: a sad barfly, shell of a man who passes out in his bar chair and comes home drunk most nights. So, I was always aware of the buzz and I always stopped out of fear, but I always felt this draw towards alcohol. Yet, for the 15 years that we were both sober, I never gave alcohol a second thought. Never judged friends at parties, never cared if I wasn't drinking with everyone else, etc. Now, it's all I think about.
Ilovedogs (I love dogs too! ), you've gotten some real wisdom in response to your OP, so I'm not going to go there.
I did want to respond to your last post about feeling the booze in the house is "calling you", because I had much the same experience.
As an ACoA, I've never been much of a drinker, even in my teens. I always had this horror of feeling out of control, and that stopped me from getting into alcohol or other drugs. I gave up alcohol altogether in my early 20's, around the time that I learned there was a strong genetic potential for alcoholism in me because of my parents. I never keep booze in the house; all my friends know that if they want to drink when they visit, they have to bring their own.
Several years ago I picked up a small bottle of Bailey's Irish Cream to make a cheesecake, figuring the remainder would sit in the cupboard for years. Then I started thinking about how nice it would be to have a glass when I got home from work -- closely followed by the horrified thought, "This is NOT me!!" I don't even really like the taste of it, except heavily disguised in a cheesecake. So I know just how you feel -- that Bailey's was calling to me, like a siren, and I was drawn to it magnetically. It was the weirdest experience.
Now I know for sure: I've got the addiction gene, and no booze in my house.
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Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could... Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Emerson
Great thread!! Great responses!! For me counselors are people and people are human and humans come in all shapes and sizes with all kinds of personalities and characters...Yay!! and they have the college degree and the diploma on the wall which verify that they have arrived and they have clients money in the bank that proves they are doing their right thing however if you're getting confused I'd say you need more support...more meetings, a sponsor, more literature time and constant HP time. "Abandon yourself to God as you understand God..." and more MIP time. Al-Anon and MIP type forums are called "social model" therapy...people who have the experience helping those you have also and are try to understand what to do with it.
One of the things I did to understand alcoholism and why things worked the way they worked was to look not at my wife's drinking but at my own. I believe that alcoholism is a true disease and not a moral issue; that it is cunning, powerful and baffling and not a sin although you can sure commit a passel of those under the influence. You called yourself a hypocrite and I got that maybe you thought you might have more control than your husband over the chemical...NOT!! less in fact when you look up and study how alcohol affects the female make up. Why did you not just say no to yourself when the compulsion hit? The compulsion is soooo strong that the person will drink regardless of the justifications not to. It isn't hypocracy it is addiction; a compulsion of the mind. You didn't stop your compulsion to drink and you won't stop his and I haven't even said alcoholism...just alcohol. Is it alcohol abuse? or is it the "ism"? The difference can be decided with an alcoholism assessment...that assessment is on line...free...google it. Some times the question Do I drink because I want to or do I drink because I feel I need to? is the one to spend time inventorying with honesty. I drank because I wanted to and when I did I didn't stop for anything or person. At times I felt the need and most times it was there so I drank it and kept drinking it. I didn't stop my alcoholic wife I stopped myself ...with help from those who had life problems with alcohol abuse and ism.
Most of the hiding and lieing is about denial and fear. I hide my drinking because I don't want others to critique my drinking which I might fear I have a problem with. Or I fear other peoples critisism of my drinking or I just don't want the trouble or... pick other worry and fear stuff. Lots of times alcoholism gets put in the "moral issue" file. Too bad...
ILDs...alcoholism is a progressive disease; my experience. It doesn't happen over night. It just might have been developing long before you met your husband and yet the important part is what you want...what you want to go back to...alcohol free totally alcohol free and in the program we say, "Let it begin with me..." that is a bit out of context and it is just as real. Stop yourself and stay stopped and get the help and support to do that from the programs. As for him? You're already hurting knowing that you are not as magnificent a reason for him not to drink...OUCH!! that is what I felt!! It hurt me to the core and it was one of the first acceptances I worked on. Alcohol is a powerful, mind and mood altering chemical which is addictive and when it becomes such nothing else matters but to drink. Sorry that's the fact.
So give yourself some time...time to practice what the counselor suggest "Put your foot down and just..." and practice what the program suggest starting from the first step. Take what you like and leave the rest.
It is important to understand that very very few professional counselors will share their own experiences of what worked and didn't work with their cliental. You mostly will not hear..."This is what happened to me, this is what I found out and this is what I do today", sitting opposite a professional, licensed, college educated social servant. The only time I've ever heard them speak that way was inside a meeting of recovery.
You can also look at the financial aspects what you pay for what you're getting from it. It doesn't sound like you are getting what you're needing and then if you don't listen and learn with an open mind in Al-Anon you won't grow either.
You're in control...do what's best for ILDs. In support. (((((hugs)))))
Thank you Jerry, for your response. I think my AH has a healthy perspective on alcohol(note I said perspective, not control). When he worked for Miller Brewing for that one year, he was quite aware of the power of alcohol and he drank responsibly. That job lasted one year and I remember begging and pleading with him not to take that job, but we were only dating and he felt that he could do it and have control. And, he did. He would have about 2-3 beers and then switch to non-alcoholic beers to finish up the night. He was responsible and got accolades from his boss for being committed to the position and for being professional. Yet, he had made a promise to me that we'd quit drinking before we got married. And, we both did. And, I thought: that was that, LOL! Unfortunately, even though we both understand the power of alcohol, it doesn't mean we can't be fooled or that we can't be controlled by it. I keep telling him that we're playing with fire. Also, another unfortunately, he still keeps trying to make a point of saying: I would just love to have a Guinness on St Pats Day, or have a berry beer in the spring, etc and just enjoy it. A nice glass of wine to enjoy with a meal, etc.
I have way too much fear because of my dad and my own past and I'm just uncomfortable with alcohol. Period. I would love to say: go ahead and have that Guiness, but will it stop there? Probably not. And, how would I feel about it? And, that's where I'm at now; trying to figure out what my boundaries are, what agreements we can come to, and how will things be in the near future based on the conversations we've been having lately? All questions that I have no answer for as of now.
Well, one definition of alcoholism is when you know the risks of drinking and you feel compelled to do it anyway... With a wife who's trying with all her might to keep from falling into the chasm of alcoholism, would I drink? The fact that he chooses to do it anyway says something about him, and to me it looks as if his "chooser" is broken when it comes to alcohol. Now this is just from what I'm reading and I'm not either of you, so of course take what fits and leave the rest.
I think if I were in this situation, I'd start going to both AA and Al-Anon, and get clear of the chaos. What I hear is the question, "How can we handle this if one of us is drinking? How can we make this work if one of us is drinking? How can we maintain things without having to stop drinking?" Maybe the answer is right there in the open?
You have a lot of complications here -- get plenty of support, because no one should have to deal with this alone. I hope you can find some great meetings and a good sponsor, as well as the rest. Hugs.
-- Edited by Mattie on Wednesday 23rd of February 2011 04:38:49 PM
One of the things I cried about yesterday was that I told him that I didn't think I could continue to live in a house where there is alcohol present. He gave me the go ahead to throw out his stash but I told him that it was 'his' stuff and that he needed to throw it out himself. He even had me take it out of it's hiding places last night and told ME to throw it out. I wouldn't. That's when we discussed the fact that he decided his marriage was more important than alcohol to him and that I mean the world to him, etc. Only time will tell what actions he will take in the future. As for me, I really just want to release myself of this monster personally and get rid of the temptation within. I have looked for meetings but haven't found anything that works with my schedule. Homeschooling takes up most of my days and my son still needs my direction and teaching. He also isn't old enough to leave home alone as an only child for that long of a period of time and I don't want to cut into his school hours right now. In the evenings he has tennis clinics and private lessons and we travel about 2 out of 4 weekends to tournaments. We'll see if I can find something and get my husband to pitch in with the schooling while he's working at home.
Thank you guys, I will try to find one that offers child care. And, I agree with Aloha: I expect others to change just because I've spoken my mind and I know that's insanity but I do it anyway!
My piece: I asked my ABF about what he thinks about a counselor giving such advice, and I really liked the perspective he had. He said, that the A typically has to hit bottom before really being dedicated to quitting and the AA process. Having his home and family intact, gives him little motivation, and that perhaps, the counselor was trying to help you initiate a rock bottom for your husband. She should, however, have helped you more with direction from your statement (which doesn't necessarily have to be an ultimatum, but a true boundary - what you will or will not live with.) In the end though, you have to protect yourself, and those in your life that can't protect themselves from behavior. Also, what I've learned so far from coming here, tells me that by staying with him, even should he choose to continue drinking, doesn't mean you're condoning the behavior. It means you love him in spite of his disease, and are learning tools with which to set healthy boundaries for yourself, no matter what he decides to do for his own recovery. You can only tend to your own recovery.
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~Rhivenn. __________________________________________________________________________________________ "You come to love, not by finding the perfect person...but by seeing an imperfect person, perfectly." ~Sam Keen.
), you've gotten some real wisdom in response to your OP, so I'm not going to go there.
So I know just how you feel -- that Bailey's was calling to me, like a siren, and I was drawn to it magnetically. It was the weirdest experience.