Boundaries and outbursts in the home - Al-Anon Family Group

ilovedogs · ~*Service Worker*~

Boundaries and outbursts in the home

kitty · ~*Service Worker*~

When I landed back in alanon 5.5 yrs ago ~ my feeelings ran my life, it was all guilt or fear/anxiety and I did not know how to not be manipulated and manipulate-able. The A's were the center of my universe.

I had to learn to focus on me and not take what they did, said, felt personally. I had in my delusional mind constructed the notion that I was responsible for them and that was the disease talking - not the absolute truth. I had to learn to seperate from and see my own disease, which was feeling responsible for thier moods and lives, while abandoning and ignoring myself.

I say learn to focus on YOU and how to detach with love from AH's life choices. Yes you do live together but you both have your own life -- this took me a while to understand - bc with no boundaries I naturally assumed that my family was interested in my opinions about them, the truth is, we cant focus on what others think about us, we have to be the priority and the voice in our own lives.

I would practise focusing on you and you can tell it to your son as well to practise together - not taking it personally that daddy yells-gets mad, we all get mad. If he chooses to stay mad, again that is not our concern as we cannot change thier minds or feel it differently for them, only for us.
We can be a good role model and example and our kids do emulate what their parents are doing. Luckily they often emulate the saner/healthier parent bc kids want structure and boundaries naturally.

Learning to accept and not judge our loved ones (based on thier choices/behavior) is true serenity -- my serenity is proportionate to my ability to accept -- that has allowed me to stop being frustrated and in the delusion that I had any control over them. As I work to control me and have self mastery -- I am arresting the disease in its tracks (on my side anyway). When I focus on others, I lose me and feed the disease.

You ahve to sort out your own feeelings and rectify the past and forgive the best you can. Doing this and stopping the self condemnation is such a gift! So as I am allowed to make more and more mistakes, this allows me room to grow. B4 when I was so "perfect" and afraid to move or do anything, I was not growing bc I had quit trying anything altogether. We learn from our slips and mistakes, its a part of growth.

Actively focus on what you can to allow you to feel better and then work on that thing. Developing other interests helps us too, not only are we more intersting when we are interested, we can also explore a side of us that maybe has been in waiting.

What we focus on grows. Learn to focus on what you are feeling and I would ask the son too, to share how he feels about how dad yells. Get to sharing and then share with him ways that you can both stop enabling.

I felt guilty, I believed them when they said it was my fault they did what they did. I was not emotionallt healthy. I had to find my own voice, my own self acceptance, my own self love and then I began to nurture and re parent myself where I felt my mom had left off or let me down. Blaming others only serves one thing: to keep one stuck and at the mercy of another. That is a choice.

My mom distracted me very well and that was always fun, the times we had when we were at play together. Taking time out to meditate or talk about far out subjects was time I loved spending with her as well.

Practise your self care and self acceptnace and love and show that to your son. It is healthy for us to have bouondaires and our own respect. Take actions that you want to be honest about and share.

Detach from what AH is doing and feeling and do that for you, it is a full time job for me! I remind myself that when ppl are angry or whatever they are expressing, it is a reflection of how they feel and think about themselves and it is not personal. I try to do the behaviors that I can feel better about, for me.

clep · Senior Member

I go through this often. My A will swear and yell, but say since he is not directly swearing at me, but around me I should be okay with that.

He too follows me around, tries to involve our son indirectly as he probably figures I will put a stop to that and he has his way. If I try to leave he used to hold the car door open so I can't go. If I was reading he would wave his hand in front of my face, remove my book from me, throw my pencil across the room etc. If I laid down and closed my eyes he would shake me, uncover me and try to verbally badger me. I think you get the idea.

It took a while but he doesn't do those things to the extreme anymore. He still sometimes follows me, texts me and calls me over and over. The last time he opened my car door I politely asked him to close it and when he didn't, I did. If he chose not to move, he would be run over by the door of my vehicle and he knows that as he has been knocked down before. That ended quickly. :)

Today I just ignore him NO MATTER WHAT. If he takes the book out of my hand, I will sit there quietly and pray for him. I will pray for me, just think Al-anon thoughts. We are at the point I can read literature while he is like that, or listen to a speaker on my iphone. Things are much better now.

I just had to get it clear through words and action that I do not respond to that nonsense, but I will to reasonable conversation. I work with children for a living, and as bad as it sounds, when I started to use the same methods I do with them things get better all the time.

Blessings

ilovedogs · ~*Service Worker*~

Pinkchip, I wanted to address what you have stated. I tend to agree with you on many fronts. As for labeling him an A, he did that himself back before we got married. He was thrown out of sporting events for being aggressive and drunk, he walked home one night along the train tracks just tempting trains to run him over(I guess), he has pushed me, taken a swing at me, has punched our dogs to where they actually don't respond to him anymore or respect him as a leader in this house. So, my fears stem from our early years and his behaviors that were all associated with his drinking and intoxication. He admits he was an alcoholic by the time he was 16 and that he was a drunk driver from the day he got his license. He had his license taken away for a year because his dad knew he was involved in a hit and run and that he had been drinking(his dad is an ex-police officer/was at the time anyway).

As for making me happy: I do a lot of things that don't include him. I go to the gym, take walks, hike, spend time with friends, and spend a lot of time at my son's tennis tournaments on weekends(many of which require travel overnight or for 2 nights at a time). I think we have a healthy degree of separation for the most part but days are the hardest since we're all home. I have read books on codependency over and over and I feel like my dh is the master manipulator. No matter what I try, he always has the upper hand or has the last word, know what I mean? He's had friends who have said that they were intimidated by him and that he made them feel uncomfortable, he's just that kind of guy. Now that he's drinking again, I know it's all my fears from the past that have come to the surface. He was VERY abusive verbally and he promised me before we got married that things would be different. Of course, they weren't, he was just the same except I couldn't blame the alcohol.

I will give CoDA some thought. I guess I figured that my issues with alcohol stemmed from his abusive behavior and his admittance to a problem way back when. I know there's more to it, obviously, but I felt this was the place to be especially since my dad is a self proclaimed alcoholic, as well.

firehorse · Member

Sometimes my bf will be in the mood to drop a bunch of f bombs. If I can't handle it, I ask him simply to stop swearing that its bothering me. He usually stops. And he'll get very quiet as his anger will go inward. At that point, I have to remind myself that his emotional state has nothing to do with me, and his choice to work through it, or let it go, or whatever he needs to do for himself emotionally.

For me, I don't want to be the depository of anyone's emotional garbage can, like I felt growing up with my mom.

Sometimes, I'll just ask him if he wants to talk about something. And I'll say I can listen but it would be easier if he could lower his voice or stop swearing. If he can't do this, then I can say something like if you want to talk after you calm down, I'll listen then.

Other times, I've actually had to put ear plugs in my ears, or gone off and done something else to self soothe myself, like take a bath or listen to music or put ear plugs in and read a book, or go to a meeting.

firehorse

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Aloha Iluvdogs...

I'm working thru the raging myself and at times I have control at other times none.

I am rager with a finger always on the trigger. It takes work for me to
not pull the trigger but to take several seconds or more to refocus on
where I am at and what I am compulsed to do and how that has worked
out for me in the past...always negative and destructive. Some
times rather than to just react into a fit I will go outside and plan a fit,
a tantrum, like a child and when that is over to continue with my calm
beautiful day. My uncontrolled reactive raging scares and hurts othes
and I had to throw that information into the awareness because in
fact I really didn't like hurting others with my rage.

I also have trouble with people, places and things that disturb my peace of mind
and serenity and like your husband will get perturbed by it. In Hawaii it seems (but
not in reality) that every block has a Harley Motorcycle with open exhaust...very open
and there are alot of high reving motor scooters running the streets and at night the
"starlighter" headlights try to burn my eyes out of my head and then too, not to ever
forget, the bass blaster thumping vehicle that cruise slowly past my house and truck
oblivious to the fact that there are others all around them that don't want to listen.
I need a better protocol on how to respond to that rather than react to it. If I react
it is always from the idea that "they are out to get me." Its always about me.

I know that one of the things I respond to under those conditions is a hug...and a
"Yeah that sucks and you're gonna be okay". I love that however when I look for
my spouse or someone else to do that I've driven them too far off. I need to tell
myself that myself and give myself a hug.   How novel huh?   How rocket science.

For me setting up boundaries around a rager is a crap shoot or shot in the dark as
raging is a very reactive behavior...even the rager doesn't have an idea as to when
where and how much.   There are things that happen to ragers that you might want
to know about which might be helpful...Sometimes a rager will "red out" which is a
form of "blacking out" as the internal chemicals ram into the brain. In a "red out"
the rager can do damage to people, places and things around him/her and not
know it or remember. That is from my experiences. Rage is a fear driven behavior
for me and comes with a first thought of "I have no control and must regain it.".

Just some stuff from my album.   Stay save. (((hugs))) smile

-- Edited by Jerry F on Tuesday 18th of January 2011 02:42:20 PM

-- Edited by Jerry F on Tuesday 18th of January 2011 02:43:33 PM

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

This is a lot of anger to live with and I'm not surprised you find it hard to live around. I think a lot of time we're so used to our family's habits that we lose sight of what's normal, acceptable behavior. We try to make ourselves accept anything.

I know I used to blame myself for having a hard time around my ex's behaviors. I thought, "He's okay with the way he's acting. The only one who minds it is me. So I'm the one who needs to change. All I need to do is to find a way not to mind it."

It wasn't until I was out of the relationship that I really got perspective on some of those behaviors. I'd mention them to my friends and they'd say, "What? He used to do what? You know that's not normal, right? If any man did that all the time in my house, he'd be out of there so fast he wouldn't know what happened to him. You shouldn't have to put up with that stuff! Why would you think you would have to put up with that stuff?"

So maybe I can be the one to say "What?" to you. It's not our responsibility to accept unreasonable behavior. Sometimes our reactions are warning signs that the behavior really isn't behavior we should find acceptable. My feeling is that it shouldn't be up to us to find a way to accommodate people who are chronically angry, manipulative, crazy, or otherwise unhealthy. We can love them, we can wish them the best, but we shouldn't have to let them be tyrants.

The question would be what kind of boundaries you would want to enforce. I guess the question even before that would be: why do you stay with a man who's so angry? In my case it was because I thought the way he was was as good as I could get. I thought it couldn't get any better. The price I paid for that belief was high.

That's my viewpoint -- take what is useful and leave the rest.

-- Edited by Mattie on Tuesday 18th of January 2011 02:51:56 PM

ilovedogs · ~*Service Worker*~

Jerry!!!! You said it! I have seen the 'red outs', it's the scariest thing I've ever witnessed. He's broken a lawn mower by kicking the crap out of it, a computer by beating it to death, an iron(yes, a stupid iron) by slamming it on the ground 3 feet away from our son who was 3 at the time, and has punched many counters, walls, doors, etc. And, yes, he never knows when he's going to rage. It just comes upon him out of the blue. It's very hard for me because it's not like watching someone have drink after drink. At least at some point, the drinker will have some behavior that you have come to expect or assume will occur because of how far gone they are. When someone rages, it's totally unpredictable. Things will seem fine all day and then Wham! it's like he's out of control and I'm just in the way and sometimes nothing I say or do can help him stop raging, it just has to wear itself out, or wear him out, LOL.

He knows it fear driven. He lives in fear that everyone is out to get him. He doesn't trust anyone. He doesn't love himself. He sometimes will make statements like: So, when are you going to leave me? I don't know why you stay with me. I know you got the short end of the stick in this relationship. I'm fully expecting you to leave me one day. Or, will make comments about me having a boyfriend on the side(I've never cheated and he knows this). Like I have time for another broken human being in my life. Seriously? That's the last thing I'd want.

I could go on, but you get the point. He's filled with misery, self loathing, mistrust of humanity, and many times proclaims that he can't wait for death or the end of the world to occur(whichever comes first). Yet, on most days, he's totally normal; working and functioning fine with the rest of the world. But, underneath it all is a volcano waiting to erupt when given the right environment or trigger.

FYI: as an aside: I was just in your neck of the woods in December. We took a family vacation to Oahu and the first thing my husband noticed was all the motorcycles, LOL!

firehorse · Member

"Red Out" interesting.

I have PTSD, and I compare my past dissociation episodes to "blacking out" the way alcoholics black out and don't remember. I can "act-in" by dissociating, or I can "act-out" in rage.

A couple weeks ago, I thought I was having a relapse. I was on the phone with one of those automated voices, and I wanted to throw my cup of tea through the window. One of the things in the past that has triggered a total black out for me was the sound of breaking glass. As a kid my rageaholic dad would always throw and break things. Records would fly around the room like a meteor storm, glasses, etc. He was out of my life by age 6, and dead by the time I was 10, yet I still to this day have an internalized reaction to the sounds he made when he raged.

In college I used to break glass for fun, it would make me feel all mellow and high afterwards. Another time a boyfriend accidentally broke a water glass in college when we were in a fight and I instantly went into dissociation. My next memory is a few days later.

Gratefully, I don't have those kinds of memory loss episodes anymore. And I've learned some self soothing tools when I'm feeling disociation coming on. But occasionally still, I'll get scary emotions that feel like I'm relapsing. Recovery has helped me have access to a broader range of emotions, and I know I have choices.

firehorse

-- Edited by firehorse on Tuesday 18th of January 2011 03:23:20 PM

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

oh boy do I ever relate.

Ya know when you put "toxic," what came to me was, well how do you make drinking anti freeze , or eating rat poison or castor beans less toxic?

I remember sitting here being happy, him sitting there all toxic, angery, on edge, never laughed, never smiled, complaining. That was also part of how it made it so much easier to have him go out that door and not come back.

His laughter used to be music to me.

Toxic is that, poison. I am not saying leave of course, I guess what I am saying is if it croaks like a frog it is a frog. croaking is a frogs nature...

Its HARD to realise those we love are poison to us. Even family can be! Myself I honestly cut them out of my life. I have ONE aunt left. Sadly after spending two months with my grama who was 106, in active dieing, with this aunt, omgosh she was sooo poisonous, so critical, prejudiced, liar, abusive was horrible.

NOT directed at me, though I know she talked bad behind my back. I completely cut her from my life.

This is my experience. NO way would I allow any of that around my kiddo's. They get enough from bad teachers and staff when they are at school.

For me hon, I just cannot be around people like that and be alive.

Wish I could be positive in some way!

I can say I am so glad you are here, that you share here. I have found you to be refreshingly open and honest. Not afraid to share things some of us might be afraid to. (the diluting alchohol, moving their beer can etc lol)

I didn't do this to be funny, my AH would always steal my pain meds and other meds. I am one who gets them but does not take them unless I am desperate.

He would complain of headackes. It was right after brain surgery he would take certain amounts and mixtures, then would be fine.

Ok well awhile after this, he was complaining. I said take these, don't ask me what they are.

He of course would never have thought I would give him what he wanted. But I did. Guess what? He said he got no relief.

So much is pychological. Insanity.

love,debilyn

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I guess the end of it is that you didn't cause his anger or drinking, can't control it, and can't cure it. That is an Alanonism isn't it? Sorry if I was coming across judgmental...

ClaireW · Newbie

I think many A's suffer from undiagnosed "other conditions" other than alcoholism.

My Dh has ADHD and depression, PTSD, the list goes on for a while besides that. He's an Adult Child, as I am myself, and has been sober without a program for three years. Won't get help for his other challenges, life is often a nightmare at our house.

And, in his opinion, it's all my fault LOL

All I can say is to go to Alanon and work your program as best as you can. Practice loving detachment and keep your recovery foremost in your mind. Make your own life good as much a possible.

Sometimes they don't get well, it's a fact. But you will if you work at it.

-- Edited by ClaireW on Thursday 20th of January 2011 07:23:22 PM

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