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I was doing some reading online about people who hide their drinking. I stumbled upon a psychologist's website where he gives this advice:
If your spouse is hiding their alcohol, you should take the bottles and put them out on the kitchen counter. When spouse comes home and says, "what's this?" You just tell them you found the bottles. Then, in a calm voice, not accusatory, ask him/her if they think they need to hide them from you. Ask him/her why. Tell them you love them(if you still do), and that they don't need to hide anything from you. Then, if the opportunity arises, ask them if they think they have a problem. Let them decide for themself, don't push. The ball's in their court now.
So, what do you all think of this advice? I'm tempted to use it with my dh soon, as it may open up the lines of communication. It may not get him to stop drinking and hiding but it gets the topic more out in the open so we can keep working on our marriage. Agree or disagree?
I think you are trying to find a way to either manipulate your alcoholic sober or make sure he knows he's not fooling you.
I have done that, thru the years, I knew it wouldnt make any difference or make him stop, but its human nature to want them to realize what they are doing to themselves.
They are not hiding from us, they trust us, otherwise they wouldnt be drunk in front of us. They are hiding from themselves, we have our denial and they have their's. I know my XAH always hid his cans and vodka bottles. Ive never looked for them, but when you hide them all over the house you do tend to find them.
Usually he would stay in the kitchen and drink at nite after I went to bed, he swore he was off Vodka, (I knew he wasnt). He got so drunk he forgot to hide the bottle and left it on the kitchen counter. I would always laugh because he thinks he hid it and it would be there in the morning when he got up, I wasnt going to touch it.
I never had any trouble opening up a topic with the A, you cant talk them sober...
I don't think that advice is good - seems to misunderstand alcoholism as a disease and seems to misunderstand that nobody can cure or control the alcoholic's drinking. If a tactic like that worked, none of us would be here because we would've tried it already and passed along the word that this is a way to get the other person to stop. For me, the point is that nothing I tried worked, and I am here trying to accept one day at a time that I am simply powerless.
Ahh.... rational reasoning for irrational (i.e. active) alcoholics....
I wouldn't pay much money to see that particular psychologist.... :)
My main concern about this 'advice' is it is still centered around focussing our attention upon the alcoholic..... Al-Anon doesn't "should" us and tell us not to go look for bottles - it simply advises us that it is somewhat of a wasted effort....
My bottom line - IF they were rational enough to listen to such calm, rational reasoning, they wouldn't be hiding their addiction in the first place....
Just my two cents Tom
__________________
"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
I can tell you that I've tried this tactic, MANY times in past years when my mom was an active alcoholic. Nope, doesn't work. Others are right, it sounds to me like a way to get the A to stop drinking. We really don't have control.
OK, so I haven't gotten past some of my control issues, LOL! It was fun to fantasize, though. I just don't know how to talk to him about it without getting him on the defensive. I guess I want him to know that I know he's drinking and hiding it because I want to be someone he can be accountable to, does that make sense? I'd rather we drink in the open in our house and there's at least some form of accountability. But, I also know that even if we drank a drink with dinner and I would think we were done(at least I would be as I only like a glass of wine now and then), he'd probably just have his hard liquor later or still hide it and then he'd just be adding more drinking to his routine.
Honestly, I miss having a glass of wine every now and then but I don't want to drink in front of him. I feel like I'm being held hostage to his drinking. Like if I drink, then I'm just giving him the OK to drink more, does that make sense?
First no that tactic is unlikely to work....i think we have all tried it in someway at one time or another. I urge you to re read jerry's post where he talks about trying to reason or rationalize with an irrational disease. Because i am hearing you say you want your husband to take acctountablity for his drinking. If he were able to do that he would likely be in a recovery program. the disease of alcoholism does not allow for them to be accountable for thier actions....it is always someone, something else to blame thier drinking on. I would bet even if you did confront your husband with what you have found and told him you would like him to feel free to drink in your home, in your presense that you would still find bottles hidden around the house. If you already haven't pls get to an alanon meeting in your area, you will find support and understanding and you will get educated on how exactly this disease works, also you will learn to get your focus off your husband and on to you in learning healthy coping skills, detachment and ever so much more. I am glad you reached out with your question, I think it is one that we all have had at some point. and it does sound perfectly logical.... but you are no longer dealing with logic by any sense of the word. I wish you the best, pls keep posting Blessings
I use to try to convince the A to drink civilized, like when we go to dinner, why do you never order a drink at dinner?? I finally realized drinking is not an enjoyment for them. The X never drank wine , because wine is to be served with dinner with food, to be enjoyed and sipped slowly. Whenever , he would go out on a binge for a few days, I would be a smart ass and ask him "Was that fun, did you enjoy it? He would answer, "Its never fun, its like a job" If you allow your husband some space, he will say honest statements and occasionally let you into his world, just dont push him.
When it comes to their drinking, they dont want to share it with anyone, they feel ashamed and they feel too guilty and they cant drink in moderation or controlled drinking. You know I just had a thought, anorexia is a disease where the sick person feels its the one thing they have control over. Maybe, its the same idea with alcoholism, just throwing it out there.
If you knew how much the A drank, what would you do?
Why would one drink of wine every now and then make him drink? We dont have that much power over them or anybody.
It would really help you if you worked on Step 1. instead of focusing on the A's drinking. "We admitted we were powerless over Alcohol-that our lives had become unmanageable."
I'd have to ask myself my motives on that one if I'm tempted to try that out.
If there's a single hint of a cell in my body that's hoping "maybe he'll change" then I'm setting myself up to be let down.
For a long time, my exAH hid his bottles in the garage and would wait until I went to bed to start drinking. I could hear the cans and bottles opening and his digging out ice cubes because the bedroom was right next to the kitchen.
What agitated me was the secretive behavior. I could care less if he drank - that he sneaked around is what bothered me. I only told him one time very pointedly "You know, you don't need to hide your bottles and sneak around me when you're drinking. If you're going to drink, drink. I'm not telling you that you can't."
I had to show him through my own actions that I would live up to those words and not forbid him to drink if he drank in front of me. Eventually he did trust me enough that he did start drinking while I was awake instead of waiting for me to go to bed. I'll re-emphasize that his drinking didn't bother me in the first place, so it wasn't upsetting to me in the least to see him drinking.
What ended up being the unacceptable behavior that I couldn't live with any longer was his continual dishonesty and that he had numerous flings with random people outside our marriage. That was what was so painful that I couldn't handle any longer, and despite couples counseling and my trying my best on my side to accept him for who he was - cheating and all - I eventually learned he wasn't going to change, was not willing to change, to save the marriage. I accepted that in him and decided it would be best for me to move on.
It was the disease that ultimately lead the to disintegration of our marriage. Not the drinking. The drinking is just a symptom of the disease.
Can I ask you guys something? Would it be OK then for me to have a glass of wine every once in a while with dinner? Would I be setting myself up for disaster? I guess I am tired of feeling controlled by his secret drinking and I want to enjoy my life a bit more. I hate hard alcohol(reminds me of my drunken father) and I hate beer(too hoppy smelling), but a good wine with a nice steak or pasta dinner is nice to me.
How do I justify this when he wants a glass? Do I just let him have some even though I know he's drinking in secret? I honestly want my son to see people drinking responsibly. He'll be a teen soon and I want him to realize that alcohol isn't forbidden fruit but it must be treated with respect and with reason, etc. He sees my mom and her dh drink a glass or two of wine a day, my sister and other friends drink around us, so I want ds to know that drinking can be done responsibly.
As always, I would think the real question would be "What's my motivation?"
I would wonder if my motivation in wanting to drink is really to teach my son that drinking can be responsible -- couldn't he gather that from the rest of the world? The way I see it, the problem is that so many people think they can control their drinking and drink responsibly when they can't. Alcoholism has a genetic component, a genetic predisposition. So I would tend to worry that my son would see other people drinking responsibly and think he'd have it under control too. I actually dread the day he's old enough to think about things. His dad, my exAH, says that he knew from the first time he tried alcohol that he would be an alcoholic. He said it felt too good not to get addicted to. I have fears that our son may have that underlying predisposition too. I don't want him to be complacent and think that some people drink responsibly, so he doesn't have to worry. I'd rather that he understood that alcohol is a very powerful force and that he needs to think carefully before he tries it out. I hope I'm making sense here. I hope my son sees that people don't need any alcohol to feel good.
But if you want to drink, I think it's useful to reflect that just as we can't stop it, we can't make him drink if he doesn't want to. I know what you mean about not wanting to drink in front of him, though. It feels a little like declaring "open season." I found I just couldn't stomach watching my AH drink, even if he didn't start the staggering and the passing out until after I was out of sight. I knew what was coming. It's a hard situation to be in.
I found the bottles under the bed while helping him look for something he had lost. When I looked under the bed he immediately got weird and said he would find whatever it was. So then I got suspicious.. and when he left I started looking and couldn't believe how many hidden bottles there were...four under the bed, one in the golf bag...I was sick with disbelief. Finding the hidden ones and linning them up might work for some and it is worth a try, but in my case it wouldn't work. Nothing I've done has worked. I am totally helpless over his disease.
My motivation comes from being involved in Christian youth group and seeing kids who were sheltered from alcohol and lived in homes where no alcohol was served go on drinking binges and became alcoholics by the age of 20. I'm always amazed when I run into some of the kids who, at 14, seemed to have it all together and their parents were so good at protecting their kids from the world. Turns out, the kids were told that alcohol is a forbidden fruit even if there are responsible drinkers out there and their parents never set the example. The parents told them that drinking is evil and that it should never touch their lips and now many of those kids are hooked and don't have the coping skills or support of their parents. My sister has seen the same thing from the kids at her Baptist Church where she helped in youth group 3-4 years ago. She runs into them and finds out these kids have totally lost their way. She felt that the parents just avoided alcohol and taught just abstinence instead of responsibility.
Anyway, that's why we allow people to BYOB to our parties at our house. I want ds to know that we feel there are plenty of people out there who drink and for many years, we had chosen not to drink. Now, the situation is different and I don't know how to handle any of what is going on.
Wow there are so many sides to each of the topics brought up in this thread. I did confront my exah in this way twice. The first time was prior to learning some tools from AlAnon and coincided with a demand from his workplace for a rehab program, my motivations were not loving or accepting only from pain, fear and ignorance of the disease alcoholism. He was shamed into attending the rehab program. I believe he tried to please everyone for a short time but for the most part just became a better hider. The second time was after the disease had progressed far enough to affect his hiding skills. Sloppy and ineffective hiding prompted the second confrontation. I was self motivated, the smell of stale alcohol spilled in vents, cupboards and nooks and crannies was something I did not want to live with. I cleaned them for ME and explained to my exah what I had done and that I needed him to throw away his bottles and store them in ways that did not create the same mess. He did try after that to get everything to the recyclable bin or the fridge ... it was nicer. The tactic improved my situation but did not create an opening for him to seek help. The disease progressed to 24/7 drinking, we divorced and he eventually went to prison. Soon to be released after a couple years and an intensive treatment program. I still have clean vents and cupboards.
I do not care for most alcohol and rarely drink more than 2 or 3 drinks a year and i do not have children to make decisions for. I did eventually stop drinking at all around my exah simply because he would use the drink I had as an excuse for his own drinking or as an accusation towards me. It was not as important to me as eliminating possible ways for him to engage me in an unreasonable conversation.
My experience, I have not made complete sense of all of it yet, maybe never will but take what you like and toss the rest
I tried something like that. I didn't bring the bottles out (ie rubbing his nose in it) but I said that he didn't need to hide the drinking, that I'm not his mother nor his jailer and I loved him very much but I wasn't going to participate in his need to feel shame.
I don't think that the dynamic of having an A be accountable to his spouse is workable. I tried that ... I was the one seeking out the truth, I was the one badgering with millions of questions, I was the one that said I just wanted things out in the open, etc. He actually referred to me sometimes as his parole officer - which I more or less made it my business to be. I had the mentality that I could be the enforcer because I knew what was best for him. This did not work. He did not get sober being accountable to me.
When my AH got sober, he made the decision to be accountable to himself, his HP, his sponsor, and his AA fellows. This program works for him - he's sober. Funny, but I have no place in it other than to simply be supportive.
It's hard, I know. But once I got to the place where I absolutely accepted that I had no control over my AH's decisions, and accepted that I could not determine what was right for him and that he could make the choice to drink if he wanted regardless of how I felt about it, my life became more peaceful.
... grant me the serentity to accept the things I cannot change ... the courage to change the things I can ... and the wisdom to know the difference.
Blessings,
Summer
-- Edited by White Rabbit on Friday 14th of January 2011 11:38:43 PM
Wow!! great thread...great feedback...soooo caring so right on. For me my alcoholic was also trying to hide the problem from herself and she never could. I never searched for bottles or the like because I couldn't imagine the reality of it. She was trying to keep a secret and the facade..."I am not drinking" so putting alcohol into empty perfume bottles and little scent bottle was her way of practicing her alcoholism.
It is a cunning, powerful and baffling disease and like others here I am powerless over what I know about it, don't know about it and only suspect about it...it's not about me.
Today if a person, professional or not were to suggest something to me and tell me to try it I'd ask "are you thinking that or do you have experience it does work?" I like coming here and listening to those who have experience in recovery and the disease. Let me do what you do and not what you think.
My sick alcoholic wife knew before she met me that she had a real problem and that her family of origin did also. She had a history of problems with alcohol and I was the newbie to the experience. She didn't have to hide from me or train me she was trying to escape the reality of her alcoholism and doing everything she could to do that. When she hit the sidewalk without my body to soften the fall...she went for help.
Alcohol isn't a food source. Alcohol isn't a health item. Alcohol doesn't improve any thing in the human body...It is a mind and mood altering chemical that is addictive and if used beyond reason creates both an compulsion and obsession for itself and if that isn't arrested the body will go insane or die. Hiding bottles and looking for "tatics" is about insanity.
Most of what we communicate about here is the insanity of the disease in our lives to our lives and that is the result of someone elses drinking. Alcohol affects every thing it comes into contact with...the drinker and the drinkers associates, friends and family.
I know why those nice kids got taken down. If they find a power greater than the chemical they might be able to make it back.
Thanks MIPers for your ESH. ((((hugs))))
-- Edited by Jerry F on Saturday 15th of January 2011 12:01:27 AM
Well it sounds good and I wish you luck . Perhaps if you start attending Al-Anon meetings for yourself it will encourage him to follow into a program for himself. It only takes one person tochange to create change and if you want change you have to be the one to seek help..there is nothing you can do about his drinking its his problem leave it with him , take care of you .
I have mentioned before that my wife hides her drinking in plain site. By that I mean I know she has beer in the plastic cup, or has poured into the Mountain Dew plastic bottle at night while she is on the computer. I know she has several beers in her purse. That saves her trips going back down stairs to the frige more often. I understand the reason we never watch T.V. together anymore, because it takes away from her drinking time. I never bring it up and have never confronted her once over the years, right or wrong. She knows I know what is in the cup or Mt. D bottle, but I guess it's still a way of hiding it. (in plain site).
So why do I say all this? Alcoholics are going to do what they are going to do.......drink. I could get in her face. (that accomplishes nothing) I could find her hiding places for the empty cans, that would be to easy. (Quit that several years ago) or I could dig to the botton of the kitchen trash and see how many cans are there. (cut my finger wide open doing that a few years ago). What sane person would do that? I've tried to forget that one, but I still have my scar as an everyday reminder.
It has been said you can bury an alcoholic up to their neck in cement, and they will still find a way to drink.
I am powerless over the disease.........But.......I "do not" allow the disease to make my life unmanageable anymore. Hence, my favorite slogan....Don't React. I have acceptance. I am powerless over alcohol. My sanity and serenity are important to me. This program gave me the tools to keep both.
I have never won a single battle with this disease. Not one. I don't know of anyone who ever has. So why should I spend my time trying to out wit a disease that has a perfect record, is undefeated, untied.
Putting the focus on me, and taking care of myself first is what works for me. I repeat, they are going to do what they are going to do ........drink.
What is important is what am I going to do.
HUGS RLC
-- Edited by RLC on Saturday 15th of January 2011 03:37:21 AM
-- Edited by RLC on Saturday 15th of January 2011 03:42:28 AM
-- Edited by RLC on Saturday 15th of January 2011 03:48:20 AM
-- Edited by RLC on Saturday 15th of January 2011 04:05:16 AM
I am by no means an expert, however, I have learned that we need to focus on ourselves. I always remind myself, we didn't cause it, we can't control it and we can't cure it. The mere meaning of tactic is to maneuver and to attain an objective. Yes, we all want our alcoholics in our lives to stop drinking. We are here because we don't know how to and want support from others that have been there. We admit we are powerless. Believe me, I know about hiding, about lies, about not speaking to your loved one in truth. They can't, they have an addiction and until they decide, on their own, they will continue to be addicted. It is not easy, it is not simple, I feel pain for you and empathy. Only by bonding with others and learning about Al-Anon can we begin to recover. I still feel like a kindergarten student in my journey of learning. Prayers are with you.
I have just one experience to share in regards to you wanting your son to see adults drinking respondsibly. My husband and I both come from highly addictive familes. When our children were small we moved away from our families. Not to cut off ties with our familes at all, we made sure our children always interacted with thier aunts, uncles cousins etc. We just wanted them away from the daily drama and constant crisies. So niether my husband and i are A's and we drank rarely but in social situations, BBQ's, camping and holidays our children never saw my husband, me or any of our friends drunk.... so they experienced exactly what you are talking about with your son. And I see no problem with children seeing respondsible drinking because surely they are going to encounter it at some point in thier lives. But our son, the curious one started drinking as a teenager apparently ( he kept it well hidden for a while) then started drugs. And yes it was his choice to try and do those things but I can say he drew the genetic short straw because he knew (as he tells us now) that once he found his drug of choice ( after trying many many drugs) that he was hooked. So i personally can't say that our children seeing us drink socially and respondsibly did either good or harm. I am not sure it affected thier thinking about alcohol or drugs at all. I will say there comes a point when you have to just pray that they make the correct choices but basically it is a crap shoot. There comes a time when peer pressure can greatly out weigh all that you have taught your son. Case in point our daughter was able to make the decision not to succumb to peer pressure and did not drink until she was of age and as far as I know drinks respondsibly where our son went right along with his peers at the time. They both had the same upbringing but made 2 totally different choices. My son has been sober quite a while now but it is a daily struggle for him I know. And recovery holds no promises so I can only say that for today he is sober, I've no idea what tomorrow holds. As far as drinking in front of your husband i would check my motives on that one. If your husband is actively drinking than what does it matter if you have a drink in front of him he may drink with you if he choses, you've no control over that choice. If my husband was in recovery I would probably not drink in front of him, but there again he will be put in situations where people are drinking so it doesn't seem as though you should have to give up an occasional glass of wine with dinner. Personally we haven't had any alcohol in our home for yrs due to our son, nor have we drank even socially for years because it just wasn't that important to us any more after having to deal with our sons addiction and it was very easy to let go of. So really no one can or will tell you what to do in any of these situations becuase we have all dealt with it in the way that worked for us. But I will say in alanon...the one thing i was asked most often and subsequently thought of more often before making any decisions... what are my motives? You will hear that a lot so please don't take offense to that question....there were many a times when asked that question and I really had to think about it I found my motives were really not in my best interest if I really thought it through or were not in the best interest of my son. Hope any of that was helpful to you The best part about this board is you will hear many many different ways of how people have handled things, what's worked best for them and in reading the posts you can take what you like and leave the rest. Because ultimatly you are making your own final choices. Blessings
Hi ilovedogs! I've done that, in various forms, it does not work. I once found an old vodka bottle left over from a party we had, our friends brought the bottle over and this was over a year ago...I was still in denial back then. But, I found the bottle, and it was half full of water. I asked AH about it, he just had an "duh" look on his face and said he didn't know it was there, he asked me who put it there, who would drink it and fill it with water, maybe our friends did it! It was maddening. I told him normal people don't finish off the bottle, then fill it with water, and put it back. He said he knows that, but he didn't do it.
Then, more recently in one of my 'relapses', I looked out the window cause the dog was barking and saw AH sneak off into our gazebo. It's freezing outside at the time so I knew there could be no other reason to go in there (especially with his buddy over watching hockey at the time) other than to drink. Sure enough, he was drinking. I snuck in there after him and found an almost empty bottle of vodka hiding in the propane heater, under the metal cover thing that goes over the propane tank. I starred at the bottle for a while before I finally came inside, AH was standing there when I walked in, wobbling back and forth. I showed him the bottle. He told me it was old, from a long time ago. lie lie lie lie.
Then, there were the times I used the breathalyzer on him thinking oh well he'll have to admit now with this proof!! Nope. AH told me his 'baseline' for the breathalyzer must be 0.11. Yep...everyone else's "baseline" is 0.00, but AH's baseline was not. He would say it was broken, it didn't work on him, that he must have so must left over alcohol from when he 'used to' drink that that's what it was picking up on, that he blew wrong, that he just brushed his teeth, ect....
You can try, and if you feel you need to do this, if you'll agonize over it, or need to prove it to yourself... then I'd say do it, lord knows most of us have. I used to feel like I had to try everything... but, in the end, it never did a bit of good. AH always kept drinking and always kept lying.
