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Last Saturday night the family was at a holiday party and W got pretty drunk. Sunday she was paying for it. I made no mention of it and went about my day. We had another party on Sunday night. W didn't want to go so I took the boys.
While there my 16 year-old son was sitting with a group of his friends chatting and laughing. I got a bit closer and heard him talking about how drunk his mom was last night. As I approached, he looked up at me as if for conformation. I said, "Yup, she was pretty drunk" and left it at that.
I asked another Al-Anon about this and how he thought I might deal with it. He said that while not very far along in his program, his sponsor would ask him if trying to discuss the situation would bring any new information.
Did she know she was drunk? Yes.
Did she know she was hung over? Yes
Did she know her intoxication was a topic of conversation amongst our son and his friends? No
I'm trying to check into my motivations on this one. I want her to know that our son is quite aware of her drinking (as are his friends).
On the other hand, she could easily use this information as justification to go after our son.
I would never want to do anything to jeopardize my relationship with my son. Since I've been going to Al-Anon, I think our relationship has become more open and close.
If it's a situation of choosing who to protect, I choose my son of course! She's a grown woman who doesn't need me to protect her reputation.
Just trying to sort this all out. I'd really appreciate any wisdom on this.
This is a complicated one and I look forward to seeing what other people say.
I'm thinking: Does she know that her drinking is obvious? Based on my experience with my exAH, I'd say on one level Yes, on one level No. They seem to be in denial about whether they're drunk at all -- it's not even obvious to them, much less that other people see it. On another level, I'd guess they're so full of shame that they think the whole world is looking at them.
The other thing is whether telling your wife that your son and his friends have noticed will bring about any change in her. It's unfortunate that until they choose to make the change, nothing we say makes any difference. So my guess there would be no.
I would guess that it's painful to see your son knowing that his mom is drunk. Although children are so observant that he's probably known for years. But it's painful and it always makes me angry. When I'm angry, I want to take it out on the A. It hasn't made any difference to take it out on the A, except to add more turmoil, but it's very hard not to want to.
It's so hard to negotiate the line between keeping to my own side of the street (not confronting the A) and refusing to keep silent as if I'm also pretending there's no problem. I'm still struggling with that one.
Do you have a sponsor? This might be something to talk over at greater length.
Stepping Up Hi and thank you for your post. I think what you did was absolutely the right thing. What struck me most is when you said, "your son looked up to you as if for conformation". You vaidated the truth, which I think is so important. I think one of the most harmful things done to children who live in alcholic homes is the secret keeping and when they do voice their thoughts alot of times they are told dont talk about those things, or it wasnt that bad, or dont make such a big deal out of nothing. Those type of reactions from the parent really can give a child a misconstrued perception of what is really happening , and make them doubt the very things that happen before their eyes. I applaud you for your choice, this is a fine example of how our recovery aids in the recovery of others. Its so important that kids can speak up and say what they see and feel and not be quieted, or made to feel they said or did something wrong to protect someone else. Good for you, way to work it and thank you for sharing this. :) blessings your way...
If it were me, my motivation would be to try to open his eyes, try to get him to see that the drinking is a problem. I did it many, many times. Sometimes he seemed to get it, and I would be so pleased and relieved. But he would always go back into denial and I would get sooooooo angry... because I had an expectation. I expected that I could change him, that I could open his eyes, that he would "get it" and we would never have to deal with this again. I believed I had some kind of power and when I lost that power, I had to think of a newer, more clever way to bonk him over the head. I fought my powerlessness for a long, long time.
Whatever you decide, surrender to your powerlessness. There is One who has all power, keep close to that power.
-- Edited by glad lee on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 09:22:22 AM
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The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
I'll second what Dream posted. As an ACoA, the last thing I would ever have talked about in casual conversation is my parents' drinking, so I think it's awesome that you have managed to create a climate of authenticity in the home where your wife's drinking isn't an awful secret for the kids to carry around. And kudos to you for validating his perception of the situation, without overdramatizing it.
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Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could... Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Emerson
why not ask your son how he feels about his mum being drunk at the party, you could say something like "Im just wondering seeing as you brought it up with your friends, does mums drinking affect you in any way"?
that way your asking him for his input, your not putting words in his mouth, and depending on what he says, you could suggest to HIM to relay his feelings to his mum, for example if he brushes it off, leave it, however if he says he was embarrassed etc, you might suggest to him to relay that to his mum, that way your being a father, as you have a right to discuss feelings with your son, and to guide him, but your not manipulating the situation,
if your son goes to his mum and relays his embarrassment thats his choice, and you have allowed him to know its okay to bring these things out in the open,
Great job validating what your son said. I am an ACoA - when I was a child, any mention of my mom's drinking was quickly shushed by my stepfather, brushed off as just something I invented in my mind that was not actually an issue, or outright denied. I learned early on to keep those feelings to myself and assume that my feelings were not valid. It is very good to hear that your son is able to be open about it and that you are honest. Good dad award for you! :)
I think that reiterating to a child that the A is sick and also that the child is not responsible for the parent's behavior is very important. Just as reiterating to the spouse of an alcholic - if the A gets drunk and acts obnoxious, it is the A that should take the consequences. There is no need for the spouse/child to be embarrassed - neither have done anything wrong.
That said, I do understand that the ability to not be embarrassed may be over a child's head - my sponsor says to talk about it anyway, and talk about it as many times as necessary. Eventually the child will understand what it means. I'm trying to do that with my son. He's 9, and i know he doesn't understand. Still, I'll keep affirming it for him.
Does your son attend Alateen meetings? If not, it may be a good thing for him to go talk to other children of alcoholics, and realize that his situation is not uncommon and that he is not the only one. He can start to learn now that alcoholism is a disease and that he is powerless to change another person's behavior.
My H of 22 years is my A. He is now in recovery. We have two kids -- a son age 14 and a daughter age 10. I agree wholeheartedly that you acknowledging the drunkenness with your son was an extremely helpful move. Just letting the shameful secret out is an enormous relief to the kids (in my experience).
After an embarrassing situation with my AH, I once asked my son if he would tell AH how it affected him. He said he just could not do that. I completely understand and think it was too much to expect of a 14 year old. In that situation, I told my AH about how his behavior affected our son. I felt I owed it to my son to do so. I had no expectations of changing AH necessarily but felt he should know. Of course, I told him when he was sober.
Later, after he sought recovery, AH has said that the way he was letting his kids down was one of the big motivators to get well. Now, I wouldn't bring something up with the expectation that it would have that impact. But I personally believe that As often have themselves fooled that nobody notices that they got drunk or how drunk they were. Children of As are unlikely to disabuse them of that notion. I felt it was my role to do so.
The way I understand the original question, it was about how much to talk to SteppingUp's wife about the impact of her drinking on the son. Is that right, SteppingUp?
I agree that acknowledging things to the son is far better than the culture of ominous silence that ruled when I was growing up. I assume he also knows that you're deeply troubled by the drinking, but acknowledge that you can't control it? This is where Alateen might come in, in case your son might be thinking, "If he sees it, why doesn't he get her to stop?"
It's a tough situation to be in. Keep taking care of yourself and your son.
I like the responses you got (particularly liked Failte's) - I don't see much (if any) value in bringing it up with your wife..... I see tons of value in using this as a door opener to have some good 2-way communication with your son....
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
I think for me, the only motivation I could see in divulging a private conversation between another person and me about my spouse's drinking TO that spouse would ultimately mean I'm trying to control the spouse's drinking.
It's called guilting.
I always made sure to be frank and honest with my step-daughter about her father's drinking. I acknowledged it was there, and I discussed the aspects of the disease of alcoholism with her - that it's not a choice. I tried to be very careful about not making her dad out to look like a monster, but to at least take an honest, fact-only look at his disease.
Most importantly, I made sure to tread carefully in how I played a role in their relationship with each other. I truly decided that if my step-daughter wanted her dad to know she knew about his drinking, it was up to her to discuss it with him. Not my place.
I only once said something to my exAH about his drinking and his relationship with his daughter in correlation with his drinking. He'd driven her home drunk one night and I told him matter-of-fact that he drove her home drunk. I didn't do it with the intention to change his behavior or guilt him. I thought it was something important he needed to know. I never brought it up to him again, and I calmly discussed with his daughter the risks of getting into the car with him when he's been drinking and what to watch for, and when in doubt to call ME for a ride instead.
Wow!! Stepping...did you get some feedback!! Now what? For me the answer to that question after I was asked it by a sponsor was internalize it...get it into my gut and then into my shoes.
There is absolutely nothing I can do to cause my alcoholic to drink or to stop drinking. She knew more about her drinking and what it was doing to her and others than any one else did...It was her problem and she knew it itimately. She is alcoholic...not dumb and she had feelings for it and for the family which were a part of the great struggle. She knew and she knew she was addicted...had a compulsion to drink and and allergy to alcohol. The allergy happens on several levels all at the same time...mind, body, spirit and emotions. The Alateen suggestion for your son from my experience was the best. I have witnessed it and participated in that program. Alateen can do more for his understanding and recovery (he is affected) than you can. If it is available in your district...get him there. He doesn't know what he is talking about regarding alcoholism and neither does his friends unless they are in a program of recovery. I've worked with teens in school districts and the greater percentage never were aware of the "disease" concept so then saw their alcoholic/addict parent as "sick". Mostly they saw them as "weak" or "disabled" in some sort of way which fits after the drinking or using.
By the way...the kids talk about both parents being "different" or affected and in their own groups arrive at perceptions that are not as experienced and knowledgable as they can be if they would sit in Alateen meetings. We need as much of the "whole" story rather than just alittle of it.
If you have knowledge of the "disease" concept of alcoholism...share that with him and not only "drunk". Drunk is a condition and often degrades absolutely wonderful people, human beings, children of God, wives, mothers, fathers etc. Drunk is often sat next to other immoral behaviors. Sick is not. She was sick...before, during and after. When she is thinking about drinking, planning on drinking, getting around drinking people, places and things, when she is drinking and afterward...expect sick. Tell him this and tell him that alcoholism is a fatal disease...if she doesn't arrest her drinking by total abstinence she will like millions of others, die from it. It is killing her now and taking the family with it...piece by piece. Nasty picture but clear and honest.
I have often witnessed in the program of Alateen and in the schools the children of alcoholics and addicts turn on the non-drinking parent. Like me these kids were also in love with the alcoholic parent and trying to protect them and their images. Usually these kids were being manipulated into "taking sides" with the non-drinking parent or other and on one hand they understood why the alcoholic/addict was screwed up they got confused and angry from what the other parent was trying to do.
"Yup she was very drunk" may fit the picture and then ask yourself would "Mom is very sick" be more accurate; more supportive of understanding to them all and healing?
Did she know that the topic of her intoxification was part of conversation by others? No is not accurate. In order to get a more clearer picture of what an alcoholic knows, suspects, feels you have to sit and listen to them. Alcoholics are sensitized beyond description...use the word paranoia and you get closer to the true condition. She is sick she is not dumb...she knows that everyone knows and because everyone knows they are all talking about her inablility to drink without getting drunk and then the stuff that happens afterward. Everyone knows and everyone needs to talk or process it. There truely is an elephant in the living room and everyone sees it. Do you need to tell her about the sons conversation? Take some quiet time and ask yourself what would be the honest reason to do that? Do that with your sponsor and keep in mind "Admitted we were powerless..."
This is a long one even for me who has trouble with long ones and your experience is so much similar to mine. Take what you like; leave the rest. In support (((hugs)))
-- Edited by Jerry F on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 02:34:52 PM
-- Edited by Jerry F on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 02:38:24 PM
Telling your wife what son said will only hurt her and thier relationship . I aqree its great son can speak the truth my only concern would be that * he talks about her with respect * facts are facts a practicing alcoholic has no anonymity anyway , but we dont have to make things worse by talking about them or telling drunk stories. Al-Anon or Alateen rooms are safe , anywhere else its gossip .
I hesitated responding to your posting because I have mixed feelings on the issue .
I understand that it was important to validate your son's story and that you feel that your wife should know that her behavior is obvious to the children.
I do not believe that you should tell her of her son's actions. It would only hurt both of them.
I cannot validate your sons laughing with his friends about mom. I do not believe that talking about anyone behind there back is ever acceptable nor do I believe that being drunk and doing destructive things is ever funny.
It is important for children to know that Alcoholism is a disease and that talking about someone 's sick behavior is unacceptable. I agree alateen or alanon would be a great place for him to attend and learn and share.
The opinions expressed here is strictly those of the person who expressed them take what you like and leave the rest..
Thank you all so much for sharing your experience and wisdom.
I do not plan on telling my W what was said. It certainly wouldn't help her in any way other than to make her feel worse than she probably already does. Anyway, it would be manipulative and nothing I say will make her change.
I do plan on talking with my son this weekend about what he's experiencing and how he feels about it. I'll make sure that he knows that her drinking is not his fault and certainly not his responsibility.
Hopefully, he can learn to concentrate on himself and realize that, like me, his words can't change her.
