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Hey everyone, I've been learning/coming to terms with a lot, through reading and therapy, about the dynamics of an alcoholic/codependent relationship. That we had something in us that attracted the alcoholic, and they had something in them that attracted us.
Just wondering, looking back, can you see that now? What it was? Can you pinpoint a quality that attracted you?
Also, if you are single now, moving forward once healthier, what will you be looking for in the future?
I'll share.
I met my AH in university in late 2003. We were part of the same larger crowd of friends..he joined this group after I did as I was at that university before him. He was more quite than the rest of the group, kind of kept more to himself, and only seemed to talk or open up when approached by someone else first...always had his head in his books. When he did join in conversations, I thought he seemed like a real stand up guy, very funny, clever and witty, but always a tad awkward, easily embarrassed. I remember thinking to myself: what is that guys' deal? I want to know.
We ended up in a class together...which led to studying together...which led, to fast forward 5 years, ...marriage. Back then, I knew he liked me, I liked him too. Looking back, I think I felt more comfortable with him because he seemed less put together than I was, not crazy or anything, just less comfortable in situations (whereas I was very social, bouncing from group to group, talking with all my friends, making plans, gossiping, ect..). I thought...I can show him how to be more at ease.
Of course, at the time, this was all so subconscious, buried so deep in me .. I was totally unaware. All I probably saw, at the time, was a good looking, smart, funny, witty, really nice guy. When we started dating, he was so nice and caring and thoughtful, I thought I won the lottery, so did all my friends. Where did you find that one, they would all ask...he's one of the good guys...
It didn't take long before I started taking care of him. He'd pass out on a snowbank here, get too drunk over there and I'd help him in the cab. But, of course, these instances were so few and far between all the great times so I didn't think much of them other than slight annoyance which quickly passed or made better by his apologies and flowers. That, combined with denial and misunderstanding and unawareness of addiction...
That's what we all seem to hold onto...is that person we know they are inside, the person we get to experience every once in awhile. That's what I've held onto. I met my A in highschool....at the age of 17. He was fun and exciting and we just had something.....he liked to party and hang with the guys all the time....i thought that was just the normal highschool thing...unfortunately that never ended and continued......He drank all the time, would go to the bars after work, not come home all night, but in between those times...I loved him and we had 4 kids together and we did lots of things together and bought lots of things together. He began binge drinking to where he'd disappear and not work for a week at a time back when he was 23 and that was the first time he was in rehab. He is now 38. He's been sober here and there, and that's the sick part of me, that I hope and hold onto...that he will one day remain sober forever and we can finally have the good times all the time and not just some of the times.....now he's gone....but in my sick mind...I believe and pray he'll be back someday and I sit here and wait....now isn't that sad and sick!
hi guys, my hubby sounds just like your danielle, quiet, polite, very deep, good looking, romantic, straight away I knew I was attracted to him because he needed "mothering" and I having being raised by alcoholics and being the fixer, wanted to fix him, it worked for years, but then I went into long term counselling and began to resent the mothering, I think sometimes he too hated my being the one in control etc, the stronger of the two,
his drinking was only at weekends, and didnt cause too much disruption, but graudally became more frequent, and then the lies/deciet kicked in, we were both raised by alcoholics so his mother wasnt emotionally available and he needed to feel needed, I on the other hand was a nurturer,
Sdisnie, I think we all fall in love with someone, go through the honeymoon period and soon after when it goes wrong we begin to want that back, to pine for it, what we dont understand is that every one is always on their best behaviour in the begining of a relationship, so we get the best of them as they are trying to win us, or impress us, sometimes that person remains the same forever, if we are lucky,
but if the person is "sick" or has problems they begin to show themselfes and we go into denial, and wont or cant accept that they might have fooled us, we pine for what was in those heady days of love, but somewhere along the line we might have to see that it wasnt "real" meaning we didnt get to see the real person till the ugliness showed. Not saying thats the case with your hubby, or your relationship, but in one or two of mine it certainly was!
The only thing I know is Likes attract....I think i may be a lot older than some of you but..... back in my "dating" days I went out with only A's when I look back at it now. Then I met my husband, we both liked to party, we were young and we partied hard pretty much everynight actually. We married then our first child came along and lo and behold our "party" days were over. It was time for us to be respondsible and as we both came from highly addictive families we wanted better for our children. This was an actual discussion we had. So as much as we both tried I think to become A's it just wasn't in us. We would have alcohol in our home from time to time for parties or holidays but that was it. But I think our inital attraction to one another centered around alcohol. We have been married close to 30 yrs now and while we didnt raise our children around alcohol or drugs...in fact we moved away from our families purposly to get them out of that daily lifestyle and wouldn't ya know our son became an A. We couldn't have been more shocked but although we moved away and gave our children a different life....we took all our dyfunctional behaviors with us and clearly passed them on to our own children. Had I understood the ramifications of that I would have sought my recovery when my kids were babies so we could have taught them healthier coping skills Blessings
Hi guys. sdisnie, I know what you mean, holding on to who they were, who we want back, who we get to see glimpses of, every now and again.
falite, I was not raised in an alcoholic family. I had a great childhood, a sister close in age who I played with all the time and we are now still very close, my parents were put together, had great jobs, they loved us, we went on fun trips, they played with us ect... it was great.
So, this need to help others, I wasn't sure where it came from..I'm still somewhat in denial about it I guess because, looking back, there were times in my life where I wanted to help someone in a bad situation, I cared, wished I could fix it, but didn't cause I thought...not my problem. I guess when that 'problem' is with someone I'm dedicated to and love (my AH), that need becomes overwhelming? I dunno....
My shrink took a family history and asked me tons of questions. She said that there were situations in my childhood where I saw my mom helping or 'rescuing' others...so, now I do the same.. I'm sure there are other things that factor in here, not just what my mom did...low self esteem, fear, holding on to the past.
My mom is one of the best people I know. She has always been there for me, encouraged me, loved me, she is so giving..
The instances in my childhood my therapist thinks plays a roll are these: The son of a friend of the family moved to our city for school, he had no place to stay (I was 16 ish at the time) so my mom took him in, let him use our car, ect.. Another time before that, when I was around 14, my cousin came to our city for some type of program, again, he had no place to stay so my mom took him in...fed him ect.. I got pregnant when I was 17. My mom said she would be there for me no matter what my decision. I had the baby girl - my daughter, who is now 11 who I love more than any thing in the world. After I had her, just out of high school, my mom let me live there, she supported me financially and in many other ways. I took a year off then went to university. My mom would help with day-care bills, getting up every now and then in the middle of the night so I could get a better sleep, she would watch my daughter whenever I needed to study ect... So, I suppose I saw her helping people..all the time, no matter what. Not sure if the no matter what part is true...but it's what I saw.
So, the shrink thinks those experiences are significant. I thought at first she was reaching. .. now, I think perhaps she has a point.. I was just reluctant to admit it to myself. I didn't want to be the caretaker, the one with the power, the decision maker...but, I always was.
Now, when I think back to times where my A husband made a decision or was more decisive, I found I was not at all comfortable with that.... and not always only cause I thought his decisions were stupid...but because I was the decision maker!
I know what attracted me to my XA, he was a handsome, latin man , who could dance great, was and is still generous, sweet natured(dont add vodka in the mix though), he was 29 and I was 37 and thought it was just a passing relationship, it was too much fun to be lasting., lol. he is 57 now and looks 47 even with his heart attack, binges , ruptured esophagus, many trips to the ER, when I thought he was dead, lockdown, treatment centers, beaten up by the police, fractured ribs, affairs, twin babies, all that and he still looks great!! lol and he's alive. He is like the Phoenix that rises from the ashes. I know I will love him always and he will love me always. He knows the boundary, he has to be sober to talk to me. or somewhat sober.
We live in separate residences for my sanity and when I want to take a walk on the wildside, because I still have that in me, we get together for a few hours. Thats all I can take. I still care what happens to him and he cares what happens to me(when he is sober) which is hardly.
Perhaps it was the immature part of me , but I do have to say, the disease did not take hold of him like it did in the past 8 years, that part about progressive is dead on. This man went from a determined, strong, take charge, crack in his walk , to a weak , sick, crazy, mentally bent addicted person. I grew from the strong, independent , intolerant person, into a compassionate, expanded one, thanks to the A. One who felt compassion , yet grew to know what was good for me and what wasnt. I thought I could handle it all. We were together 26 years, some great years, some hard ones when I hated him. But I am happy for this journey and I regret nothing.
I have to say, the alcoholic is most happiest when he is drinking, he drinks only beer, he has an ulcer. When he has had enough or if he dies first, who am I to say how he should live his life. The lesson here is to let go. I can only live and direct me. Loving my life!
Luv, Bettina
-- Edited by Bettina on Saturday 4th of December 2010 04:38:08 PM
-- Edited by Bettina on Saturday 4th of December 2010 04:38:56 PM
I was not raised in an alcoholic family. However, mental illness in my Mom and sister was enough to skew the family roles much like alcoholic families. My Dad often turned the other way. While my sister attracted negative attention, I went for the positive in hopes of attention. I was expected to do above and beyond and was well-groomed as a care-taker.
My exHA was handsome, multi-talented, intelligent, and kind. We met when I was 21 and he was 26. We became best friends. My Dad had a major heart attack and my exHA was compassionate, stayed with me all night as we sat together on the sofa- my head on his shoulder and him stroking my hair. I was impressed with this compassion and it was a major factor in my decision to marry him.
As his disease progressed, I caught glimpses of the man I married. I spent years hoping to have him back as I remembered and wanted him to be.
Recently, one of his college room mates told me he always wondered what I saw in my exHA. Apparently, his room mate and others mostly knew my exHA as a man without social graces and disheveled with glimpses of brilliance. The room mate and I simultaneously realized that, somehow, I tapped into that brilliance and saw my exHA as that mostly, with only small periods of awkwardness.
I still love him. He is remarried. Sometimes he is nice, but mostly not. I think he is as lost as I feel. This disease is so sad and frustrating.
-- Edited by bud on Saturday 4th of December 2010 06:05:06 PM
When my marriage fell apart, one of the issues that kept resurfacing was that I never really loved exA. It is a concept that I couldnt even entertain at first, but 3 yrs and lots of contemplation later, I think there may be something to it. I always wanted to change him. And, get this, the trait on the top of the list was how he acted when he was drunk. What is sad and amazing is, that I didnt even know he was an alcoholic and drug addict until 48 hrs before a scheduled rehab intervention ( by his sister) and our 18 yr marriage was beyond repair. He was the boy next door. Kind, witty and very bright. A great work ethic and a philanthropist. Lots of volunteering and the President of a local service organization. Brillliant in his profession. A client of his once told me, "he is the guy a dad wants his daughter to marry". Lucky me. At the same time he was akward and not super social, always put work above all else. If he walked in a room of 99 people and they all cheered him and gave him kudos, and 1 person razzed him and said he was not liked, that 1 guy would drive all his feelings and destroy the experience. He absolutely was easy for me to take care of. His needs and schedule always came first.
Fast forward 3 yrs and a lot of alanon and counceling later. I dated guy over the summer and we still remain friends. When did I know he wasn't for me? When I found myself wishing he would change some things he does, and wishing he were different in some ways. He is a guy I could totally take care of. He's kinda lost and needs direction. A bit mysterious and keeps me guessing. Pushed me out of my comfort zone. At the same time, he is kind, handsome, handy and helpful. He is very social and loves people. Alcohol consumption is questionable, though I have never seen him drunk. What do I know? I KNOW this guy is not for me. No way, no how.
Where as a year ago, I had absolutely no idea what I wanted, but I am becoming more clear now. First off, I do not ever want to get married again. Uh uh. Nope. Really, I just want to go on a date every so often. My ideas are still progressing, but I am sure I want someone who is clear in who they are and what they want, and I want someone who will communicate those things. I don't want someone who will run away from an argument. I want someone responsible for thier own actions. I want to like them exactly for who they are, and to get such respect in return. I want someone who can see that other people exist in the world, and that their needs and desires are important too. Oh, and tall, dark and handsome would be nice Lastly, and for certain, absolutely not an alcoholic, recovery or not. We'll see.... perhaps such a person doesn't exist, and if such is the case I am working hard to to love myself enough that I can be okay with that. That's really the hardest task of all...
Blessings,
Lou
-- Edited by Loupiness on Sunday 5th of December 2010 11:25:27 AM
-- Edited by Loupiness on Sunday 5th of December 2010 11:30:21 AM
__________________
Every new day begins with new possibilities. It's up to us to fill it with the things that move us toward progress and peace. ~ Ronald Reagan~
Sometimes what you want to do has to fail, so you won't ~Marguerite Bro~
i read somewhere once that the traits of alcoholism can be passed down onto the next generation so even if you werent raised by alcoholics, if your parents were, then it all comes down onto us anyway, as they pass on the sickness.
I also read about a study in that 100 men and 100 women were put in a room together for a day, all total strangers, 99% of them that were attracted to each other when interviewed it was revealed that they had all shared very similare backgrounds, whether dysfunctional or not, some studies show that our antenna's are able to pick that up from the other person, and we automatically move towards them.
this happened with one of my partners ( a gambling addict) the first time I saw him I lost my breath, nearly buckled at the knees, honestly, he wasnt NOT good looking, was unemployed, had already got a history of abuse with previous girlfriends, and yet I was hooked, it wasnt even about fixing him I think I knew immediately that he was way too far gone to be fixed, when I look back now I see I was attracted to the bad points about him, (he simply didnt have any good points) his father was an alcoholic, and he was very badly neglected as a child, so I was what I attracted (like versus like) in that he would treat me exactly as my father had done, and it was all I knew at that time,
I later learnt about "obsessions" and realised I was not in love with him but simply obsessed with everything bad about him, and of course the sickness of it all, thank God I left him very quickly, and I have never since experienced anything like it, it was scary and very detrimental to my health, he is still the same person, hasnt moved on, got help etc etc, still gambling,
I am reading through these and nothing rang true until Failte. Pretty much sums it up for me. We are what we attract. That was a hard pill to swallow. Things were either really, really good or really, really bad. We could never "just be" - live and love One Day at a Time. He was a good story teller, extremely intelligent, and a brilliant seductor. We were also very different. As a single Mom and a career woman I put my responsibilities first. Being responsible wasn't very high on his list. He was great fun - like dating a 17 year old. Just not very good at the adult stuff. Our most common attribute was our overwhelming desire to change the other person, our complete inability to accept them for who they are.
As for where I see myself in the future? I have kind of given up the fantasies - they don't serve me well . And I am definitely not "looking" - after that relationship - being in another one just seems yucky. But I will say this. I want someone emotionally healthy first and foremost. And I hope to take time to get to know them before jumping into the quicksand up to my neck. They don't wear signs "I am emotionally mature" around their necks. It takes time to see if that is true.
And I hope I can say at that time in the future that I am what I attract. My daughter and I were in the store the other day and I noticed this extremely good looking man. He gave off this aura of intelligence, calm, and gentleness. I usually don't notice men - but when I have in the past it was always the bad boy. This guy was definitely NOT that. A few aisles down my daughter said, "Mom, I think he thinks you are really cute!" And the "You are what you attract" slogan ran through my mind immediately. It made me smile. Maybe I am changing. Now he may be another sociopath - but at least on the surface he isn't the James Dean on crack I am usually attracted to.
We'll see. For now I am happy right where I am. Getting to know myself and hopefully someday becoming emotionally mature.
tlc
-- Edited by tlcate on Sunday 5th of December 2010 12:09:52 PM
__________________
To be trusted is a greater compliment than being loved.
Maybe I just don't see it yet, but in the case with my AH and myself...it definitely is not like versus like. We grew up so differently.
Like I said above, I had a fantastic childhood, great stable parents, good jobs, a sister I was best friends with, went on fun trips, ect...
My husband, on the other hand, is an only child, his parents divorced when he was 4, his mom moved him to another city when he was around 9, (he still flew back 2-3 times a year to visit with his dad). His dad then passed away when he was 11. His mom and his stepdad struggled financially, they still do. My AH also never got along with his stepfather...until recently, he disliked him quite a bit, he says he thought he was too harsh on him with the discipline and showed no love of affection. When my husband was asked by his doctors to describe his childhood in one word he says either "ok, or shit". My husband says his mom was a great, loving mother...but, I suppose that wasn't enough to make his childhood good.??
My childhood was so different...so, why was I attracted to him? Why am I such a care-taker? I never had to 'step up' and take care of anyone or anything as a child... I don't think I'll ever fully understand. People tell me I'm so strong for coping with what I"m going through....I think to myself, if I was really strong, I would leave. I would know I'm better than this, deserve better, quit holding onto the past, and just leave. .. But I love him, I'm scared, I'm frozen, I love him and want him back...so I stay..hoping that one day, that will happen.
It does sound like a recurring quality of the A is that we found them a bit awkward at times?....
At this point, I have no idea, except that it was a bad idea lol.
My tdoc told me a lot about the unsaid, oh I can't remember the exact wording. Something about how we have some kind of vibes inside us that communicate with theirs. And on some level we can feel what we like about each other and that is how we are attracted to each other.
My AH and I often said we were attracted to each other because in our past marriages we were givers married to takers. In our relationship we could give to each other without fear that the other would take advantage of us. I have no idea now what the heck that means because I feel like our marriage of four years has been based on a lie since he has been closet drinking the entire time. I do know that I have spent a great deal of energy trying to convince him he's not a loser or a horrible person and in therapy have learned that it is not a healthy thing, it is care taking and not loving him, and I can't do it any more. I need to spend that energy taking care of me. I also learned that he was "sweet" to me (and genuinely so, he really is a nice guy) as my therapist put it, when no one in my past really has been, and because of that I was willing to overlook the signs that he was a closet drinker and believe the "loopiness" was a health issue.
Hey pamommy... oh the things denial will let us believe. My AH closet drank all the time, at home, out, at my parents for dinner, at friend's during our weekly Friday night 'game nights'.. I'd say it took me a good 2-3 years, after I really started suspecting something was up, to come to terms with the fact that he is an alcoholic.
I remember saying to myself and one of my best friends "How is he THAT drunk already, we've all only had a couple beers... he must be allergic of something, or maybe he didn't eat today, or blah blah..."
I suppose I just wasn't ready to acknowledge....yep, he's an A. I was so in denial, I didn't want it to be true...
I remember every Friday or Saturday night, after game night with our friends, he'd get so drunk..he'd be mean, rude, harsh, short, really really weird, awkward, paranoid ect... and we would fight about his behaviour the whole ride home and all night, every single time, which was every weekend. I would then harbour resentment about it for 3-5 days... only for it to be repeated again next weekend...so really we only ever had 1-2 days of peace in a week.
Oh yeah... all the Saturdays that I worked, that I would come home to a clean house and a loopy husband, loopy because he was EXHAUSTED from working so hard cleaning the house- who could get mad at that??? Or have the nerve to suggest he was DRUNK? Just shut up and be grateful for the clean house and flowers on the counter. Funny how I was out working just as hard but didn't come home loopy, but that never occurred to me. Duh.
(Don't get me wrong, though, I am grateful he was and is nice both drunk and sober)
-- Edited by pamommy on Sunday 5th of December 2010 09:27:33 PM
Lastly, and for certain, absolutely not an alcoholic, recovery or not. We'll see.... perhaps such a person doesn't exist, and if such is the case I am working hard to to love myself enough that I can be okay with that. That's really the hardest task of all...
. And I am definitely not "looking" - after that relationship - being in another one just seems yucky. But I will say this. I want someone emotionally healthy first and foremost. And I hope to take time to get to know them before jumping into the quicksand up to my neck. They don't wear signs "I am emotionally mature" around their necks. It takes time to see if that is true.