I understand your need for the truth.  Once I found a part of it - that was all I needed.  I didn't want to know anymore.  The truth was in their actions and what was done proved to me where I stood.  I am sure there was more and I really don't care. 

As for spilling their guts, telling me everything, apologizing . . . it never happened and I wouldn't have believed it anyway.

I needed a living amends.  A CHANGE in the way I was being treated.  No amount of words could ever have helped me heal.  I needed to SEE recovery not just HEAR it.

When I did my 9th step I took advantage of that disclaimer.  There were people that I would have hurt if I entered their life and apologized - them and others involved with them.  I think it would have been selfish to go back to some of these people to help myself feel better.  I looked at this really hard and talked with my sponsor about them at length.  But I didn't just get to pass over it.  For me, making amends is not only apologizing - but changing my behavior and not doing it again - and passing my experience on to others.  Accepting that I did it, having right-sized guilt about it, but letting go of the shame was all part of my 9th step.

Still very much a work in progress.  As afraid as I was of the 9th step - and will be again next time it comes around - it felt SO much better afterward.  Now I try to stay on top of my 10th step - but I am sure once I go through this again there will be another nice list of amends I have to make that I wasn't even aware of. 

As for expecting an amends from another. . . well that is an expectation that usually ends up a resentment.

Hope that helps.

Tricia

I do want to know about the drinking things because for me some things are unforgivable. I know it doesn't say wife or husband in step 5. but step 8 says a list of people we have harmed and I am pretty sure spouses would be on that list.

I guess my problem is that I am a brutally honest person, always have been.character flaw probably! still trying to get over all the drinking lies. been married 32 years so there are a boatload of lies. truth would be a nice change

Well...step 8 said made a list of all persons we had harmed and BECAME WILLING to make amends to them all. Became willing.

Step 9 says made direct amends wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

I don't think Step 9 is a disclaimer. I think it's designed for the A to acknowledge that his behavior impacted other people. It doesn't change what has already happened. Making amends sucks. I'm on that step now, and I really hate having to admit I was wrong and make amends.

My AH made an amends to me a few months back. It was vague and in general terms. I didn't ask any questions. I really don't believe my AH can know exactly what I went through, any more than I can know exactly what he went through. In my recovery, I have come to accept that a lot of the bad things I experienced were things that I did to myself. In any event, the living amends he makes every day is the one that matters to me. I had many many apologies when he was drinking, and they were all just empty words - no matter how sincerely they were spoken. I had to stop believing the words because it was helping me stay sick. I had to look at actions instead.

welcome to alanon and MIP, oscarmom.

" I would like the whole truth for a change." -oscarmom


If this is what you want, the whole truth - bc truth is subjective and perceptual.  Our truths often "seem to" run conflicts with each other in the smaller picture, in the bigger picture - being able to step back with objectivity, wisdom, grace and universal love for All- meaning the higher and greatest good for all-- it would be so impossible to ever see or get there, through the challenges, growth, conflict -- bc it is not what life hands to us but what we do with it -- every single step of the way -- that is what is important.

Information like that right now, demanding it or begging for it, would cause a huge blow of pain to the surface, pain that is so much greater and more intense and complicates every other level of life.

Alanon is a program of self discovery and recovery from the dis-ease of dysfunction.  A's (addicts and alcoholics) are not that different from us non-A's - we are codependent enablers and so are the A's.  We both "blame shift" the energy around bc no one can deal with the intense emotions.  The A does not want to face or feel their emotions.  The codie-enalber in the relationship tries to take all of the pain and energy of the feelings by blaming the self for the other person's actions.
    Neither the A nor the codependent enabler - is able to focus on the self and set healthy boundaries with this - A.  We both are extremely manipulative.  We all play a role in the manipulative dynamic within every single one of our relationships. 

And that energy can change rapidly as within the relationship- there is a set chemistry or dynamic (established pattern) and when other people are there to feed into it and off of it, we can (all) get enabled and equally triggered by every other person.

Healthy people exercise boundaries within the context of their multiplicitous & multifaceted relationships in the different aspects of their lives.  We all function in social, familial, professional (work), we have a relationship with ourselves too and the spiritual.  We have the ways in which we treat our elders, our equals and our children/the youth.  Those are all different, individualistic and color the situations, and the context of relationships/boundaries uniquely. 

I would say:  learn to focus on YOU and YOUr program.  If ur AH chooses to work his or not or be brutally honest with himself or not - that is not your concern right now, if u truly want him to succeed and your relationship.  Bc the best way to help an A, is to work a solid program of your own - get your nose down, get into meetings, find a sponsor and get to work diligently on becoming brutally honest with YOUrself.

We are just as much in denial of the problem - our own behavior - as the A's can be/are.  Denial is the cornerstone of the disease.  I speak as an acoa -- a child that grew up in dysfunction and a parent that was not healed from the patterns of codependent enabling behavior/thoughts - issues and feelings.

So YOU pose the question to YOU ~ right now- bc right now this is reality, not tomorrow or what happened yesterday or even an hour ago. Reality is right now, what is happening right this exact moment - the present moment is where we need to be if we want to live successfully.  It is a continuous unfolding of right nows - infinitely.  It is an opportunity to make a change, each new moment.

focus on you - do u want to leave your husband now?, are u looking for an excuse to go?  If u go and do not face yourself, u will repeat the pattern only next time-- we get bigger, more intense and on another whole level of problems bc this disease (thought and behavioral patterns) is a family progressive disease... that means  every single one of us in the family - gets worse - or copes less effectively.

Learn to focus on YOU, get your power back, detach with love from their problems and allow them the dignity to solve them for themselves.  This is what we need to do for us, as well - we need to focus on and find solutions for our problems and live our best life.  We do not do that when we focus on others - in fact, this is how our disease works, we focus on others and we lose ourselves into the soup of pain and unresolved emotional baggage.

Plus if you have kids, they are soaking up every single second of your dysfunctional relationship and the reactions of you BOTH - every single minute of the day.

I wish my mom would have said when she looked in the mirror, 'oh I look nice today' or 'hi beautiful' -- instead I heard every thing she "thought" was wrong with her and fixated on that.  We do tend to fixate on the negative about us, instead of celebrate what we like and cherish and love about ourselves. 
    She tore up picture after picture, ridiculing them and her (and me and all of life, really) and judging and measuring and feeling like crap.  What a lot of pain to create for her and me, huh?
   If only she had practiced self love, self knowledge (intimacy) for me -- (granted I did see personal self care and so that helped, she took care of her body and skin) -- but the grief she applied to her own personality, the criticisms (that her mom did & she saw it & know she was that way too)--> lamenting and complaining  & not appreciating and outwardly validating and loving the self.

I learned to be self sacrificing and manipulative.  And to avoid myself by focusing on other people and I became un-powerful by focusing on all of the problems that exist and none of the solutions or possibilities.

As an adult I have the choice to focus on me, determine what I need in the moment and live loving all of life today - even and especially the pain bc it is the pain of our consequences that allows us to even consider changing us in the first place.

I have news for everyone out there - it is us human beings that judge, measure, grade and weigh us all -- it is not coming from HP.  HP is the compassionate willingness to forgive and love infinitely.  So, stop comparing yourself to everyone else and focus on YOU, what u need, what you love about YOU and do the best u can.

Detach with love from the relationship - it does not define who you are, YOU do.  We can only control and change us.  What can YOU do to allow you to feel better right now/today about YOUrself or your situation, then do that and see if you feel any better.

Step nine is to be done when you are thorooughly finished with the steps leading up to it, with a program mentor (sponsor) to guide you on your recovery path/journey.  We cannot do it alone and it is not easy but if you want to feel better and learn to cope and be a healthier person, then working an alanon program will show you how to do all of that and more.

Alanon is about YOUr recovery!  Hope u stay for all of the miracles! 

-- Edited by kitty on Monday 1st of November 2010 02:00:01 PM

Also, I have heard that we sometimes have to go through the "steps" multiple times... And if you suspect cheating, it is probably happening. As far as I have read here, if you have to ask, it probably happened. You can be proactive and get tested and find out if all is well with you. You can re-do the steps, and keep working on you. I have found that happiness is an inside job and if I rely on someone else to make me happy, then I won't be happy. I have to work on it every single day, and every minute of every day... Take care of you!