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My fiance is coming over in a little while to talk to me about last night... the drunken stumbling in late at night, the argument, him leaving. He says he still loves me and he is sorry. He actually called in to work this morning. That has NEVER happened. He says he couldn't sleep at all last night. He must have gotten really, really drunk when he was away from home yesterday and last night. He has always been functional the next day. Seems that he is spiraling quick now.
Anyways, I know you can't give advice, but any thoughts on what I might keep in mind to guide my thoughts during this crucial conversation?
They come back with apologies, promises, crying, feeling awful. They did not mean it, they will do better, they will get help.
Hey they may mean it too! But they are sick, we are listening to a very, very "brain" sick person.
We don't have to say anything. It almost is better not to. It is more,"Ignore what they say, watch what they do."
Thank goodness he does not live with you.As far as calling into work, this is NOT a good thing. His disease is already affecting his ability to go to work. As far as spiraling, this can go on the rest of his life, and get even worse.
We can do nothing, say nothing. If we engage we are supporting the disease.
He may cry, he will be sick, hey think about when you have the flu, just how much would you make sense?
For you, you don't have to allow him to come over. What would make you want to? You cannot change anything, you cannot make it better.
He is feeling desperate, by us taking them in, taking care of them, listening to the manipulation of the disease, we are helping the disease feel better.
Hey better he has to be alone, stew in his own misery. But now he will wake up and not want to be alone, go to someone to make HIM feel better. Which is the goal of the diseae. Him meaning the disease btw.
Your loved one is very sick, we need to be be strong and not allow the disease to pull us in, which makes the disease stronger.
Better for him to not be able to come over. His behavior was mental abuse. He needs to realise He is sick and no one is going to make him feel better but himself.
Your telling him this is a no also. For me, even though I would love him, want to see him, long for him to be ok and make ME feel better, it is not going to happen. That is getting the bread from a hardware store staying.
He is sick, he has nothing to give you.
The more we take them back, the more it will happen. Why not says the disease, she will always take me back anyway.
His disease turned the tables on you, hey lets make her afraid I will leave HER.!
We learn these skills from Al Anon. I tell you, my A would get stronger and start to get into recovery a lot faster when I did not allow the disease to control me.
Sadly his disease and brain damage won't allow him to be sane, even sober in prison.
So take what you want. Myself, I would grab my tummy, call him and say do not come over.
When we show we will take care of them....death to our loved one, happiness to their disease!
keep coming, all day if you need to! love, hugs,debilyn
The only thought that comes to mind is judging him by his actions, not his words..... if he's committing to a recovery program etc., then that is a good sign.... if he is "sorry and will never do it again", but is not offering acceptance of his problem, combined with a plan of how he is going to recover from it", then I'm afraid it is just 'hooking' behavior....
Hope it goes well T
__________________
"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
It sounds as if remorse has set in and he thinks he can control it. I believed so many of these heartfelt apologies and promises -- and my A even started AA a number of times -- but after long sorrows I learned that thing about "Watch what they do, not what they say." Because he always fell off the wagon or had a reason that AA wasn't right for him. It was too much about God, or he didn't like the people there, or it was the wrong kind of thing about God, or the people there were snooty, or the people there were too low-class, or (most common) he had figured out that he didn't need the help anyway because he wasn't a problem drinker "like those people." Each time he apologized and vowed to get help, I think we both believed that he meant it. But I kept believing it longer than he did.
He is coming back, I don't doubt, to get back into your good graces. But one unspoken question he's asking is, "Can I go through all that and have it not affect our relationship? Can I make that happen?" So my question would be: how has it affected you? How can you take care of yourself?
Something that helped me was the post I did a few days ago on detachment... its the ability to allow people to be who they "really are" rather than who you "want them to be." I would use detachment in this as the others said and remember that actions speak louder than words... I know that they can hook us in, and we may hang on every word... take care of you
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You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection. -Buddha
The past has flown away. The coming month and year do not exsist. Ours only is the present's tiny point. -Mahmud Shabistanri
oops, when you said coming over, not coming home...
well in my mind, my thought, which is my experience, My words would be,"well I guess the choice was made last night. You made it clear again what you want."
Then I would probably say,"Would you like me to leave while you pack?"
(believe me, dieing inside the whole time, BOOK; Getting then Sober, will help you)
I've had so many of these day after convos with the A's in my life. I've seen the tears and remorse -- and I don't doubt that the A's were actually, genuinely sad and remorseful. I don't believe that alcoholics have no concept of who they've hurt. They know. So I do believe that alcoholics feel sadness and sorrow at the time they express those feelings. The problem is, the active addiction is going to sneak back up - and the need to drink will become stronger than the resolve not to do so. This is just alcoholism and how it works. It is a cycle.
I agree with other posters that have said to look at actions, not words. Words, coming from the mouth of an active addict, may have all the sincerity in the world at the point they are spoken - but the alcoholic's simple resolve to not do all the bad stuff ever again by sheer force of will alone is not enough. The addiction will take over again unless the addict takes steps to get help.
Alcoholism is not a failure of willpower - if any of us could will away the compulsion to drink, none of us would be here.
Blessings and peace,
Summer
-- Edited by White Rabbit on Monday 11th of October 2010 01:02:47 PM
-- Edited by White Rabbit on Monday 11th of October 2010 01:07:55 PM
When I was the perpetrator of such behavior I was OVERCOME with guilt and shame. It felt as though I had messed up my life beyond repair and would never receive forgiveness. Those feelings stuck around until the next time I drank - then it was all better . . . nice huh? Looking at the two choices - the unknown recovery which I have no experience with relieving anything - or the known quantity of the alcohol induced comfort zone. Which is the easy choice? Until I was forced into recovery (which I don't recommend the forced part) I didn't really see that the path to recovery is SOOOO much better than burying myself in alcohol. I was pushed into recovery and luckily it stuck. Most have to find it on their own once their pain and suffering has gotten too great. They need be ready to do this fully for themselves. Rarely is sobriety reached by someone telling us we should, have to, or anything else. It is a path hidden until we want to see.
Now, from the side of dealing with an A and the apologies, promises etc.
Detach: Don't take any blame they throw at you - or any emotional manipulation personally. Don't take any promises as truth until you see the action to back it up. Do NOT attach to promises. I wasted SOOOO much time doing this.
Set Boundaries: This is a sticky area and takes practice. Setting boundaries vs. having expectations is a very thin, very fuzzy line for me. Staying on your side of the street and not expecting someone to change for "x" - but saying when "X" happens I am going to do "Y". Clear cut action and reaction - no expectations - no strings - simply is what it is. When you come home drunk I am going to go sleep in the guest room. Then stick to it.
Remember the 3 c's: You are not responsible for his sobriety, happiness, serenity, or success. You are responsible for YOURSELF. You have no ownership of his issues or behavior.
Say what you mean but don't say it mean: OUCH! This one is SOOOOO darned hard for me. I seem to have 2 modes. Pure anger and lashing out - or passive aggressive. Peee Yewwww to both. They sure don't serve me well. I am trying to learn to speak my thoughts clearly, define what it is I feel and need, and be nice about it! I can go back and edit any emails that are loaded with sentences that start with "You . . . " but now I need to start editing my speech! Progress is slow . . . but there is progress.
I guess the big thing for me, looking back at when I was driving someone nuts with my drinking, was that I was 100% the bad guy and that felt horrible. I had caused all of his bad behavior with mine. I made him cheat, I made him lie, I made him call me really foul things . . . I made him sick. And I bought it - hook, line and sinker. He told me I had to get into recovery and I did. I got into Al-Anon and eventually wound up in AA. I started therapy. I joined this board. I bought and read so many books. What did I SEE him do? Nothing. All I got were stories. Actions speak MUCH louder than words. I didn't want him to save me or fix my problems - I own those and discover more character defects daily. But to be in a relationship of recovery and to achieve success I believe it takes two partners committed to doing the WORK on themselves individually - and learn relationships tools together to achieve success. For successful individual recovery and serenity, we need to be willing to work on ourselves - regardless of what the other person is doing.
I was responsible for my foul behavior and he is responsible for his. Doesn't matter if he accepts that - all that matters is that I KNOW IT. I have nothing to prove. I don't have to be right. It just is what it is. There is nothing for me to be upset about or defend. I finally had to give up the fight of beating him over the head with his bad behavior and start looking at my own. His behavior is what it is and it either works for me or it doesn't. I can't expect change - I can only be really darned surprised when it actually happens .
Just my take. Hope that wasn't too confusing jumping from one side of that fence to the other.
Tricia
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To be trusted is a greater compliment than being loved.
It was predictable that he would be back and that you two would talk. As others have pointed out , this disease is dreadful and painful for all.
I have no doubt that he is remorseful about the situation and wants a quick fix. I know you are upset over the disease and need positive actions in your life.
This is all a process and must be tried one day at a time.
I am glad you took time to discuss what is going on Go within and see what you need from the relationship.
Say what you mean, mean what you say and do not say it mean. I know when I did that my marriage changed.
Before I was always keeping the peace. When I drew my boundary, with difficulty things changed for both of us. Sobriety and recovery were right down the road. It is a process Just stay focused on you
You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.
I'm praying for strength and courage for you. All I can do is reiterate what some of the others have said: "ignore what they say, and watch what they do." Words mean nothing when not supported by actions.
We must realize that none of the actions that the Alcoholic does has anything to do with their love for us. Love is not conditional on both parts.
Alcoholics cannot love like sober men or women. They have a disease. I know it gets tiring to put everything on the disease, but its so.
Just listen to the crucial conversation, but always, like eveyone said, look at his actions. If he is not getting help for his problem, he will continue on the path of his disease, never living in the solutions.
Just concentrate on your own program like your doing, things will improve for you.
Wishing you all the best.
luv, Bettina
-- Edited by Bettina on Monday 11th of October 2010 06:52:06 PM
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