The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
As I posted yesterday, I'm very new to Al Anon--I've only attended one meeting. My wife has been in AA for a few months but has had a few relapses as well, including this week.
In looking at the literature that I received at the Al Anon meeting, it stressed that the alcoholic is suffering from an illness or a disease. And I respect that idea, but I'm having a hard time with it as well. To me, that just gives them an excuse for their behavior--"I drink because I have this illness and I can't control it". My wife has so little confidence in herself, and if this is what she thinks she is going to have a really hard time getting better.
We had an argument the other night and I said to her grow up and get your s**t together. I know that is not the right thing to say but that is how I want her to think, because if she just keeps going with the mindset she's had since I met her she will never be happy, she will never believe in herself, and I fear she will never stop drinking because her issues will never be dealt with. Because she has this "illness". She is constantly blaming others for her problems and constantly making herself out to be the victim. Telling her that she is drinking because she has an illness just gives her another reason to blame someone or something else, and not take accountability for her actions.
Can anyone share their thoughts on this?
-- Edited by usedtobeanyer on Thursday 7th of October 2010 12:36:10 PM
Sometimes it's hard to get your mind around. The way I see it, it's like diabetes. The person who has it can't help having it. But they can still make the decision to manage their condition (in the diabetic's case, by monitoring their blood sugar and taking insulin) -- or not manage their condition and experience the consequences. Other examples might be schizophrenia or epilepsy. I knew someone with epilepsy who insisted that she could control it by the power of her mind, despite the fact that she kept having seizures that affected her life badly. And people with schizophrenia have an especially hard time because, like alcoholism, one of the symptoms of the disease is that their judgment is distorted and they tend to think they don't need treatment.
In all those cases, you wouldn't blame the person for having the underlying condition. But assuming they were normal adults, you would be justified in holding them responsible for not doing what's necessary to manage their disease.
Alcoholics who blame their drinking on other people are holding on to their addiction with both hands. They can't control their underlying predisposition to alcoholism; but they can control what choices they make in how to deal with it. The paradox is that they have to admit they can't control alcohol on their own before they can find other ways to control it.
Its not their fault that they have the disease, but they are ultimately still responsible for their lives and getting sober. That was the objective, that I recover from the affects of this disease and that he get sober also, otherwise I would not continue to live with him. That was my boundary.
I allowed 26 years and I would do no more. He never got sober and continues on his destructive path. I know it is a compulsion. I know how hard it is for them. But its even harder for us. The times I have seen my XAH he is happy when he is drunk. Who am I to interfere with that. He is never remorseful, because his is never sober.
Such is the progression of this disease if it is not halted. We have choices, solutions and a path to serenity. I choose serenity.
This is my experience and yours might be totally different. There are alcoholics that do recover. You must concentrate on you and you alone, work your program for you.
Keep attending your Alanon meetings, they will be your source of strength.
Luv, Bettina
-- Edited by Bettina on Thursday 7th of October 2010 03:00:39 PM
First of all it in a disease, she does have this disease that not only affects her but everyone around her that loves her.
I can understand your aprehention about this horrible disease. Addicts always blame someone else this is so they don't have to look in the mirror and see the true facts in my opinion.
The good news is there is a cure for this disease, AA is the way to gettig help, sometimes, most of the time detox and rehab is a necessary way to find the means to which you can learn the tools to help keep you sober.
She will only stop when she is ready to stop not one moment before that. Keep in mind some never recover. Sad fact but a true fact.
You on the other hand have al anon and it is your tool, because you my friend are sick as well. Once you get the understanding of this disease you can learn how to make yourself well. Go to face to face meetings...come here. Whatever it takes to make it work for you.
She must find her own way in the recovery process. She is all on her own with the help of her support group there.
There are four outcomes to the insanity of this disease, sobriety, jail, instituions or death.
With Hope and prayers, Andrea
-- Edited by Andrea12 on Thursday 7th of October 2010 03:18:33 PM
Grow up and get your s%$#t together ah if only that would work . I understand your frustration but this is a disease and at the moment it is running her life the sooner u can accept the fact that the easier your life will get . The alcoholic dosent need an excuse to drink ,they drink because they have a problem , Your wife is attending AA meetings , you never know when she will hear that magic word that will turn her life around but that is her miracle , we are enablers we believe the lies , we lie for them , we get them out of trouble, we cover up thier misakes until we stop doing those things nothing will change and they will never be forced to face the concequences of thier actions. letting go is not easy but necessary. If you have children you have the responsibility for keeping them safe yes you should be able to trust her to do that but unfortunatly as long as she is drinking your child is not safe ..day care is a available option . Keep going to your meetings learn all u can about this disease and how to stop it from taking you down with her. get your life back on track.. detach with love and acceptance and allow her the dignity to make her own choices .
I see that you have received many great replies and I just wanted to add that because of her disease your wife does not have the slightest clue on HOW to get her act together and handle life.
The disease of alcoholism, from which she suffers, has prevented her from doing just that . Denial and blaming others is a major symptom of the disease ofalcoholism.
Our attending al anon meetings where we learn to Focus on Ourselves and let the alcoholic handle their own lives works.
We no longer offer advise nor do we try to pick up the pieces. In other words we do not create a crisis nor do we stop one from happening. This way the problems that develop can only be handled by the alcoholic and no one else can be blamed.
When I came home from work one day, and saw my wife passed out drunk on the floor at 10:30am, an empty bottle of vodka beside her, and our two kids (4 & 2) playing without supervision beside her - I no longer doubted that alcoholism was a disease. Nobody would "wish" this upon themselves, and it was crystal clear that this had taken control of her life, and her addiction was winning.
Now, there are definitely active A's out there who use the "disease" as an excuse not to pursue and choose sobriety, but that's not all that relevant - active A's will use pretty much any excuse in the book to not address their addiction....
In my opinion, the only difference between a disease like alcoholism, versus more widely accepted degrees like cancer, is there IS an element of choice in overcoming their addiction. The analogy I like to use is closer to diabetes - an untreated alcoholic is similar to a diabetic who refuses to take their insulin. All that being said, if it was as simple as "if they were strong, they would be sober" - then I don't think we would have the thousands of AA meetings happening around the world.
In the end, what matters is that your wife is an alcoholic... Whether or not you choose to believe it is an addiction or not is not all that necessary - her recovery (and yours) is still very much a necessity.
Take care Tom
__________________
"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Wow!! Usetobe...that was part of my before story also. I had only my thoughts and perceptions and feelings and at the top of that was anger and frustration and so I use to rail against my alcoholic/addict wife powerfully also and it would always blow my mind (until I came to understand) that she would drink more. I stopped because I was getting the opposite of what it was I was looking for and then I learned that my looking for what I wanted was for me and not for her and I was sooooo screwed up. In truth as dynamic as I thought I was, I knew nothing about alcoholism and didn't know that I didn't know anything about alcoholism. Because of that when she gave me the opportunity to let her out of going to AA, I told her I didn't think she was an alcoholic and she promptly went back out again and I hit the wall, reached my bottom trying to manipulate and control the alcoholic/addict. The disease of addiction owned her and me at the same time and I had already stopped drinking myself.
I knew nothing and had to give up acting like I knew. I had to stop trusting my own head and choices and use the Al-Anon Groups and sponsorship. I first heard the AMA definition of alcoholism in early Al-Anon meetings and that large powerful and highly educated group of medical people said it was a disease of the mind, body, spirit and emotions...I'm gonna argue against that anymore sitting within my losses? Being oppositional and defiant was hurting me and my ego was killing me and I was contiributing to her demise by my own reactions along with her own drinking.
I didn't understand and I had to admit that and then act on it...go get help and understanding because my largest problem with this disease was myself.
Power and control tactics won't help elevate the spirit of an already depressed and negative attitude person. Power and control tactics will only make they feel worse about themselves and everything else and alcohol will tell them that it can anestethize the pain.
Is this a moral issue? Is alcoholism about being a bad person? I use to think so and I was wrong...my spouse was in the grips and the fight with a life threatening disease which could not be cured but only arrested by total abstinence and for me if I didn't get off of my spouses back so that she didn't have to carry the weight of my own anger and arrogance and all the other weight I put there, I would hasten her death. It had gotten that close on several occasions.
I have a history of marrying addicted women. That is one of the things about me that I had to look at with responsibility. "What is my part in this?"
Try looking at addiction this way...Imagine saying to yourself and attempting to make up your mind that you will not say another thing negative or controling about the drinking or her drinking. Imagine that when ever she did something, even the littlest thing that didn't meet with your expectation you let it pass without a reaction. Imagine standing in front of her smelling the alcohol and watching her waver and her eyes flip and try to keep focus and putting your arms around her and telling her you love her for who she is without condition. Imagine saying and promising to yourself that you will not do tomorrow the stuff you did today that made you feel guilty and ashamed of yourself and then tomorrow having the determination swept away from the second your eyes opened. Imagine being the alcoholic. This is what (in part) the go thru...just like us. My alcoholic/addict wife was addicted to mind and mood altering drugs and alcohol and I was addicted to her.
For now just accept what those who have come before you have learned and passed on. It is they who have learned so that we can also.
The question has been asked before...........If you knew and accepted it was a disease, what difference would it make, what would you do different? So it is either a disease or it is not. I personally believe it is a disease, a cunning, baffling, powerfull disease that is left unchecked will destroy the mind, body, and spirit of the alcoholic.
We become as sick or sicker than the alcoholic in our life. Like you I soul searched and wondered why my alcoholic continued to drink causing problems in her life and others. I allowed the disease to consume my every waking hour. I counted cans in our garbage. I checked in the back seat of her car for empty cans. I searched the house to see if I could find her hidding places for empty cans. I was able to figure almost to the beer how many she had consumed during any given day. I had allowed the disease to not only to make me sick but crazy as well. I can smile now when I think back seeing and grown man (ME) digging in our garbage after midnight counting empty beer cans........what a picture!!!!!!
My alcoholic is still drinking every day. I wish she would stop. I my heart I know she would love to stop. But that is her problem, hers and her Higher Power. I haven't checked cans in almost three years. I haven't had time. I spend my time taking care of myself first. I made that choice and it's the best decision I ever made. The Al-Anon program saved my sanity and my life. Using the tools of the program, not reacting, asking myself how important is it, learning how to detach, and finally the most important, turning her over to my Higher Power and then getting out of HP's way. What a feeling of relief I had the day I turned her over to my HP. That was 21 months ago and I haven't taken her back from HP once. She is going to do what she is going to do........... Me?..........I'm going to contunue practicing the Al-Anon program to the best of my ability, and always remember to put the focus on myself and not the alcoholic in my life.
That's the absolute best thing I can do for me and my alcoholic.
I had a VERY difficult time understanding alcoholism as a disease. A very VERY difficult time. I really did feel as though the exaH just wanted to mess up my life and our plans and our world. That's how personally I took it all. That's how self-involved I had become.
Over the past couple yrs I've come to look at this a little differently. I have seen my exaH struggle and lie and deny and deceive and throw many great things about his life out the window. I've come to believe that A'ism is a disease, because a healthy person would never do this. I believe that if my exaH could choose to not be addicted to alcohol and other mind altering substances, he would, in a heart beat.
I also believe that exaH has the choice to treat his disease or not. That is up to him entirely. No amount of begging, pleading, crying, manipulating, insulting, complaining has ever worked to promote freedom from this disease, for either of us. Infact, I am realizing almost everything I've done and said with exaH has probably never been interpreted in the spirit of which it was originally intended. Another clear indicator to me that exaH has a disease that governs just about everything he does, including his ability to understand and relate (to me) to the world.
It's a terrible disease in mho.
Rora
-- Edited by Rora on Thursday 7th of October 2010 08:49:32 PM
I have struggled with the idea of why can't my ah just get his act together. This thread has been especially helpful. Thanks for posting. Keep coming back.
I'm having a problem with this concept as well. My husband use to be a social drinker but when he got laid off he started drinking daily, so how is that a disease? It's now an addiction. He wasn't born with this, he adapted it by his own self will.
Nothing underscored the disease concept of alcoholism better for me than watching my mother die from it.
After three hospitalizations for the physical effects of alcoholism, she knew at a cognitive level that she could not drink any longer, that it was killing her. Yet she absolutely could not stop -- that is the power of addiction.
She was a very proper, intelligent, educated, genteel woman -- a lady in every sense of the word -- and sooo ashamed of her drinking. Yet she couldn't stop.
I'll never forget seeing her lying in the ICU bed with 7 IV lines running into her skeletal arms, so thin that she scarcely disturbed the bedcovers, looking up at me and saying sadly, "I guess I'll have to be good now." That was her euphemism for quitting drinking. But it was too late by that time, she died two weeks later.
__________________
Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could... Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Emerson
In the larger scheme of things, does it REALLY matter what words we use to define alcoholism? If we called it a compulsive lack of willpower, or a relentless addiction does it change a thing? Nope, because it is what it is, whatever that may be. But do know this. At some point the body actually needs alcohol to function. Not only have I personally seen days on end of horrible hallucinations, but also renal failure and near death when alcohol is removed from the system. Unfortunately, some of my fellow Alanon brothers and sisters have endured the loss of their alcoholic. I would venture to say not one alcoholic chose alcoholism over life.
Whatever it is, whatever it is called, it is deadly.
Those of us who are not alcoholics will never understand it. No matter what we believe, or choose to call it, the truth is we can only help ourselves and the alcoholics can only help themselves.
Christy
__________________
If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
Mattie - thank you for your post. I really really like and "get" the analogy to diabetes. You can't control the fact you have it but you can choose to be an adult and manage it -- eat right, take your insulin, etc. Just like the alcoholic can choose to seek recovery and choose abstinence to "manage" alcoholism. thanks
-- Edited by Cloudsea on Friday 8th of October 2010 07:50:38 AM
I think everyone has given good shares here. The more I know about it, the more I see that it is a disease. Just like depression or panic attacks, there is no way to "snap out of it". You have to seek help and work hard on it, but it can happen. Also, when I tell my A to smarten up and get his act together and be an adult, it is me trying to control him to be who I want him to be. In alanon we learn we cannot control any one else but our selves and our own reactions and responses. I am learning detaching with love. I love my Abf, but I don't love his disease.
__________________
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection. -Buddha
The past has flown away. The coming month and year do not exsist. Ours only is the present's tiny point. -Mahmud Shabistanri
"Yes. Alcoholism is a chronic, often progressive disease with symptoms that include a strong need to drink despite negative consequences, such as serious job or health problems. Like many other diseases, it has a generally predictable course, has recognized symptoms, and is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors that are being increasingly well defined."
For me this paragragh from the net, says it perfectly.
What you described is exactly how an addict acts. As far as excuses, when a diabetic has a low sugar attack, (hypoglycemia) they act like they are drunk. So when they get in an accident, yell at us, forget to pay a bill etc. it can be from their disease.
Being an addict is not just drinking. There are so many symptoms that make up the disease.
The more people in our back rounds that were addicts the worse addict we can be. It is genetic too. They do not ask for it.
I KNOW it is hard to face. Them talking like you shared shows how she is in denial, she is trying to manipulate and make excuess.
Been there. Detaching is what we learn to take care of us. We can do nothing for them. I learned to ignore the excuses, not mention anything. If I said anything it might have been, I am so sad you feel that way, I would not make that choice but that is me.
There is no use arguing or commenting on how awful what they did was. They know it.
There is no growing up and getting it together. When addicts use they cannot mature. The disease causes them to drink/drug away any chance at meeting challenges in a mature learning way.
They may never grieve normally so when they do attempt sobriety, recovery it is HORRIBLE as they have to go thru ever single stressful thing in their life at once.
My A got clean and suffered his father, a dear friend, his brothers deaths! And a zillion things more.
To say that is like telling a person with cancer in their brain the same thing. It is not possible. It only makes them feel worse. They do not think like we do, they are an addict. The moment they open their eyes their passion is drugs,they crave it, they want it, it is the number one goal in their life!
They have to be miserable to feel strong enough to say they have had enough and get themselves help.
You can wish to make them feel whatever you want, but it is not possible. When we yell, attack, try to reason, all that makes us sick. It is part of how their disease makes us sick.
If we are always in a stage of stress of worry for them, sick of their behavior, wish they would go away, hate them, why don't they change, I will make them change, I will do this for them so they can do that, all this crap makes us sick! It does NOTHING to the A. nothing.The disease does not care.
We come to Al Anon. Al Anon hands us back our will to care for ourselves. We stop focusing on them and their illness, we cannot change it anyway. We look at how we want to live and we make changes for US to make that happen. We stop coddling them in anyway, it is not our responsibility to do so, plus it makes them sicker.
I researched and still do. All you have to do is google or yahoo or whatever Alcoholism and or addiction. You will be amazed by what you learn.
I also was in college as an adult and took so many classes on addiction etc. I tell you it made me love addicts even more. As it is a disease, they did not choose it anymore than my brother who is diabetic, or my mother who died from breast cancer, she was not herself after awhile.
We learn compassion for our A's. We learn to do for them is helping the disease to kill them faster. Not unlike giving a diabetic a candybar, cooking a persons food in plastic, making a person with Lou gerigs walk a windy path on the side of a mountain.
You shared she has been like this since you met her. Did you believe you could change that? How would you feel if your wife wanted you to change something about you that had been there since you met?
She knows her thinking is not right.
As far as relapse, it is my experience, they are in recovery or they are not. They follow a plan of recovery that works for them. It is almost like a map. It is tools for them to not use, to develop social skills, learn how to be moral, maybe quit smoking, it is a plan to be as healthy as they can be. When they use, it stops the recovery road. Being sober a day or two,then using, going a week then using is not recovery or relapsing. They relapsed as soon as they took that drink or stuck that needle in their arm.
She has to figure her own life out. We can do nothing. I loved my A so much, I learned thru Al Anon how to be ok with him using or not. The smell did not bug me anymore. Him not being strong did not bug me. I learned to just enjoy him being there. When he got obnoxious, I would say or think, he is back again, and say I am going to go read, or go out to the barn. I would take myself away from it.
But most the time, since I disengaged from the disease, we could sit and watch tv, eat together, talk some. But in time the disease got bored. I would not yell or be drawn in. I played no part when it reared its ugly head.
If it got mean or rude or tried to argue, I did not respond or would say maybe you are right, oh you feel that way?
it did not matter as it was just a disease talking.
It was when he got abusive from the brain surgey that i had to end it. That was that.
Anyway I hope I said something in my share here that will help!
All we can do is take care of ourselves. Responding to it only gives it a thrill because when we show we are upset, mad, argue, etc it controls US.
Thanks everyone, this has been helpful. I'm still a newbie so I'm not going to argue with anything, although I still do have a hard time embracing the whole concept. But I know that it is the case that this is a disease. Smarter, more experienced people than me have determined that it is.
My parents were both alcoholics and were drunk every day of my life that I can remember until my mom died when I was in my early 20's. My dad sobered up shortly after that when he remarried. In their case, I never looked at alcoholism as a disease, I looked at it as an addiction. They drank because they absolutely had to. I know that's probably just semantics though.
The problem I have with my wife is her drinking just fits in with her other destructive behavior--smoking (she stopped before I met her yet I still occasionally find ciggies in her purse), poor diet, poor self image, etc etc. In many ways, it wasn't surprising when she started abusing alcohol. It was just another way she could be a "failure", which is what I really think she is most comfortable being. It's what she believes about herself, and I think we're all just most comfortable when our reality of who we are and our image of who we are match up.
Anyway, this is something I'm going to need to really work on...
I do not view addictions as a actual disease, I view it as a symptom of a mental illness that is being treated by drugs, sex, alcohol, gambling to ease the mental condition.
I've know too many addicts and each and every one of them has some underlying mental or personality disorder. Some people will get to a doctor to get meds, some are too fearful and will take the next best thing to ease the pain, drugs, alcohol, sex etc.
So you can say, yes it's like having cancer or diabetes, but insteads, it's a sickness of the mind/soul
Disease or not, it kills everyone in it's path, including all the loves ones.
-- Edited by Dyinginside on Thursday 14th of October 2010 05:55:17 PM
