The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
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information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
-separated from AH almost 8 weeks ago. During that time he weaned himself off clonazepam (prescription). This was done without doctor supervision, but he survived. He suffered through many side effects inlcuding the angry outburst I described here last week. -He had been on the drug for ten years. This numbed him from emotion, caused him to sleep a lot, increased his craving for alcohol, and a wonderful range of other things. that made our marriage difficult. -The man I am seeing emerging from the haze IS the man I married. I haven't seen this guy for more than ten years...not even when he was sober (from alcohol) for four years straight. -Anyways, he desperately wants to give our marriage another try and so do I. However, I am scared and hesitant and to be honest...somewhat resentful. -I wanted to make a list of expectations that he had to follow, including seeing someone at mental health, taking a parenting course, marriage counselling... -He has tentatively agreed to the mental health referral. My reasoning is that he has never learned true coping skills over the past ten years and needs to "refind" himself. He takes offense to that, saying that AA has taught him all the coping skill he needs and a psychiatrist would be of no vlaue to him. -When I say I am scared and want him to show me that he is this new person, he (kindly) reminds me that he does not have to prove anything to me. That AA has taught him that one thing an alcoholic should never do is try to prove himself to anyone. Is this true? -I know that forcing him to take parenting courses right now may not be good if he misses AA meetings, but I don;t expect this stuff all at once. -Is it okay for the spouse to make a list of expectations and possible timelines? Or is that against what Al-Anon tries to teach? -I feel like I am expected to take this wild chance on him without any safety net whatsoever. I know it's day by day, I know he can't promise not to drink...but don't I have the right to set some expectations? -He still have his apartment but wants to stay here (swears he will sleep in the basement) because he is nervous about the recovery from clonazepam. I am in my own recovery from ten years of his poor behaviours and I don't feel like it's fair to expect me to play such a large part in his. He is my husband I feel awful saying that because I took my vows...but I just think it is too much too ask. -My counsellor wanted me to demand that he go into detox and rehab. Do you think this would be necessary at this point? I know that's a hard one to answer without more info. She told me to set guidelines and as he achieved them, then he would be rewarded with things such as our first date, etc. I don't know if she is bang on, or if she doesn't understand the nature of the disease. -Anyways, if you made it this far in my post, thank you so much. Any advice would be appreciated. I HATE this disease. I have such a ling way to go to find the peace I am looking for.
Ok ultimatums NEVER work on A's. Makes it worse. We can only control ourselves that is it.
Does not matter if AA says that thing about not proving yourself to anyone. Common sense in my experience is, the only one I need to please is HP, then myself.
I have learned to not have expectations, only lets ya down. Play reversies, would you, an adult appreciate HIM giving you a list of do this please?
You have every right to set "boundaries." But they will not work unless there are clear consequences if he breaks them. AND we must stick to them.
I am sorry, may I invite you to go to a counselor who has experience, lots of it in AL Anon? This counselor is not giving you correct info.
Unless the A gets themselves into detox and rehab, it does not work. Plus it is not our job to make them do anything A or not!
He is an adult and can make his own decisions!
We have the right however to look at what we need and want and make that happen. We have a right to be happy.We do not have the right to push our wants and needs on anyone else. It does no good anyway.
It was very brave of you to ask these very important questions.
Hope this helped. If we try to get the A to do anything or give them ultimatums etc, that is part of what makes us so very sick too. Don't allow the A to pull you into the pit and suck you dry.
The only thing I have to add is take your time. The addict always wants to come back home, they always want to be taken care of. I would take a wait and see attitude.
I do agree , thats way too many ultimatums, even people who dont drink wont adhere to too many ultimatums. Does he attend AA meetings? I know he is under a Drs. care, Its good that he does that. I say, One Day at A Time, One Thing at a Time. Give it time.
Keep working on yourself and sticking with the program. I always say "Stay in your own lane". Hugs, Bettina
You have really good questions. I don't know if there are any concrete answers to them, but will offer my ESH.
As far as proving oneself - I don't know what AA says. I don't honestly think that the answer matters, though. I don't believe that I need to prove myself to anybody else - so the same would apply to other people. Just my opinion.
I'm in agreement with Debilyn - ultimatums don't work. In my experience, I tried ultimatums and all that happened was that my exAH got resentful that I was treating him like a child and I got upset because he couldn't meet my demands and I had invested so much time and energy into putting the demands out there and hoping they got met. I was the one that ultimately suffered.
My AH and I are in counseling at present - a lot of the reason we are in counseling is to sort through things that happened when he relapsed over a year ago. The issues don't magically go away when the alcohol is removed - the hurt feelings are still there, the things that happened are still there, and it just takes time and effort to deal with it all. We see the same counselor, but often have individual sessions so that we can feel free to be completely honest. The counselor said on our first session that the goal was for me to step down from the parent role and for my AH to step up in the husband role - so we could have a partnership with each contributing 50%. Just the counselor's explanation of how a marriage should really work allowed me to see where we were at and where I wanted to go with my relationship. My relationship had gotten to the point where I was checking up on him, looking in his phone and computer, spending a lot of time and energy doubting everything he told me, trying to orchestrate his recovery and dictate to him which meetings to go to and what places and people to avoid, etc. In my experience, making a list of expectations keeps you in the parent role. My AH was really frustrated, too - he put up with some of my demands because he felt guilty about relapsing and knew he'd done a lot of uncool things. But he was resentful because I was not treating him like a grown up.
Definitely, though, you need boundaries for your own protection. Boundaries are not ultimatums. Ultimatums are given because you want someone else to do something, and you are threatening a consequence if they don't do what you want. Boundaries are in place for YOU, and also have consequences, but the motivation in boundaries and ultimatums is different. Boundaries are not set with the intention of getting someone else to do something. I agree with Debilyn - if you set a boundary and have a consequence if the boundary is crossed, you have to be prepared to follow through with what you set out there. My counselor advised me not to put hard and fast boundaries in place until I was really sure about what I wanted. My AH relapsed a little over a year ago - drank for a few months. I kicked him out because his behavior while drinking crossed a boundary I had set for my own well being. After he got sober, I didn't let him come home for a few months because I needed assurance about how things were going to be. Not letting him come home was not an ultimatum, it was for my protection. It sucked, frankly - it wasn't easy and I didn't enjoy doing it. I had to, though - there was nobody looking out for me except for ME.
In my opinion, an A's recovery is THEIR recovery. They don't have the right to push their recovery on anyone else. My sponsor tells me that "no" is a complete sentence and does not need an explanation. She tells me that when someone asks me for something and I really don't want to do it, I have the right to say NO without trying to soften the blow or make it seem nicer than it is. I can't advise about your living situation, but I can offer that when I have allowed something when the back of my mind was screaming NOOOOO, it has almost always turned out badly. I think instinct serves a purpose.
Don't know if you will relate to any of this, but I hope that you will get some replies that help. I've heard in meetings that if you stick around long enough you will hear your own story. :)
I agree with debilyn, Betty and Summer. I will add that the alcoholic has to want recovery and soberity for themselves. All our wants, wishes. and demands for them will have no influence, they have to have a burning desire to get and stay sober......it's their choice and their choice only. Your AH coming back home is a choice only you can make. You can ask yourself is that giving him a safe place to land and is it in his and your best interest. He has to work his program in AA, and you have to work your program.
Putting the focus on you and your recovery, instead of the alcoholic in your life, is the most important thing you can do for yourself. You "have" to start taking care of yourself first. It's my opinion that the help you need can be found in f2f Al-Anon meetings with ES&H from members who have walked in your shoes and want to give back to you what has worked for them. Your life will get better. Trust the program. Keep coming back here, get involved in the Al-Anon program and make it a part of your life. That's the secret that has worked for millions of people world wide.
Nothing happens over night........ and nothing "has" to happen over night. From my experience when I finally accepted that the slogans "Easy Does It" and "Let Go And Let God" really meant exactly what they said, I slowed down, turned my alcoholic over to my HP and let things happen in HP's time instead of mine. That idea came from sponsor when she suggested "Why not give HP a chance......you know HP doesn't make mistakes". I have never regretted taking her suggestion.
Glad you are here......keep coming back......remember your never alone.
HUGS, RLC
-- Edited by RLC on Monday 7th of June 2010 09:41:47 PM
Throwing in my two cents ... these are really good questions. As for my answers they are just my thoughts from my experiences not advice even if I can not find the words to express them without it sounding like advice
I disagree with your counselor not because the idea is bad but because if it is done for you and not for himself none of it will matter and will probably be a large resentment on his part.
The expectation list are all great ideas as boundaries not ultimatums ... my reasoning is from my experience making lists of what my xAh should do to make me happy only gave him a mountain to climb and when he reached the top it was time to celebrate usually with the first drink of another relapse. I hurt his recovery more than helped it. And hurt myself and my marriage in the process.
That said I agree with the previous comment Take Your Time ... I wish I had. When I heard the agreements to my requests .. ok demands (and I will admit demands made from resentment and wanting proof of something), I allowed the "I will sleep on the couch" thing and bluntly it is really easy to fall into old habits and patterns even when trying to work a program. What I wish I had done ... waited, not made demands but took my own inventory and had firm boundaries in place before living together again if we even had that oppurtunity. I was already used to being seperated at that point and could have saved myself 5 years of @#$% had I taken my time and seen with my eyes not my ears. My xAh never followed thru on most of his aspirations or my demands, and without my boundaries in place it just started all over again. I really know now from watching friends work AA programs what it looks like, I had illusions when I heard my xAh speak of his.
I am really glad you are seeing the man you married and loved, that in itself is quite a miracle. Take your time and meditate on how to make your decisions ... never hurts to ask your HP for some guidance and a sign of where to go next either You're in my prayers.
I think it makes a difference whether a person says "You have to go to rehab and go to AA every week or I won't see you," or "I have been so hurt and scared by all this that it is very important that I take care of myself. That means that I cannot let myself go through the fear and tumoil any more. For me to feel safe seeing you, you would have gone through rehab and be in a solid program of AA. I recognize that you may not think those things are necessary for yourself. I don't have a crystal ball and I can't say whether those things are necessary for you or not. All I know is that they're necessary for me. If you don't feel those are in your future, I care for you and wish you the best but I can't expose myself to any further risks." Something about setting boundaries and letting go of the outcome?
Your counselor is cautious and that seems good for all of us, but I wonder about setting yourself up as a police warden for his actions. Before I took my ex back in similar circumstances, I should have let a lot of time go by and made sure he had solid recovery (a year or two years) under his belt. It is so very easy to relapse in those early months, and then they deny it, and then we're suspicious, and before long we're sneaking around checking them out ... same old same old. I trusted mine too soon, because he had begun recovery. He went on to begin it twenty or thirty more times. I wish I had waited till he had a lot of time at it.
I spent years thinking I knew what the ex A needed.
I wonder what do you need? What do you need short term and long term.
There is a great great resource for those dealing with A's who are newly sober. The book is called Getting them Sober. I can think of no better resource for expectations (have very very few) and outlines of what's the next step for you.
I set numerous ultimatums with the ex A. He trampled each and every one of them. It seems to me an ultimatum to an A is like a red flag to a bull.
