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Need clarification here if possible........I have trouble sometimes with what is the disease vs. what is not. Especially because a lot of people who go through things such as what we all go through and deal with regarding break ups etc, dont even have an alcoholic or addict for a spouse or ex-spouse!
Do you think sometimes we just blame the disease for the stupid decisions they make when it's possible that even if they didn't have the problem, they or things could have turned out the same way?
This is a very thought provoking question. You have me puzzled. I'll share from my own experience with an alcoholic and see where it goes.....
I have been in a long relationship (>25 years) with the alcoholic in my life - my AH. Before I realized that he was an AH, not just an H, there were behaviors that I did not understand. The behaviors did not make sense based on who I previously knew my H to be. I look back, and think of it as the disease beginning to show itself. For example, lying about the amount of alcohol consumed, chosing to drink and drive, staying up later and later to keep drinking etc. Before he "crossed over", these things were not part of who he was.
When he was fully in the grip of the disease - there were behaviors and needs that were clearly fueled by the disease. Going to get alcohol even though he had suffered some physical consequence - broken arms, shoulders, nose etc. from falls. Even after suffering a stroke. While kept away from alcohol in stroke rehab, he switched to satisfying the cravings - vicous and strong, with chocolate. Masses of it. I realized the disease was chemical, not just all in the mind.
So, the question I guess is, did I blame things on the disease as a way of avoiding some truth about who my AH really was? My sense is that I think I had it right. We had a strong, loving bond. We had the benefit of many, many years before he "crossed over". He became a different man because of the disease. Yet, the real man still showed himself daily. He crept out from under the disease to say "hi", that I was able to tell when the disease was completely in control, versus, when he tried to wrestle control back.
"when it's possible that even if they didn't have the problem, they or things could have turned out the same way? "
Okay I could be completely wrong, but I read the post a couple times and here is what I think. Hopefully it will make some sense...lol
I'm thinking if we sit and try to separate they did this because of their disease or that because that's just how they are .... well sounds like insanity to me. Will we ever REALLY know? I don't think so...so what's the point in trying to figure it out? This sounds weird for me to be typing..usually i want to know why, why why...but I think im just beginning to accept things as they are. Because really I could spend allll of this week trying to figure things out the why's and I don't think i'd feel any better than I do now about the situation.
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"Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." Will Rogers
I think some behaviors are painful whether it's the disease or just the person.
But how we interpret those behaviors depends on whether it's the disease. We can refuse to take them personally if we realize the disease is driving the person. But I still think a healthy response requires recognizing that the behaviors are painful, unhealthy, and bad for us. If it's the disease, though, we realize that the person is out of control.
But that doesn't mean we should dismiss or excuse the behaviors. Because the effects are still damaging, no matter what causes them.
I think its all disease- there is SO MUCH alcoholism out there. SO MUCH, I honestly don't think there is anyone left on the planet who isnt affected one way or another. Jean
I had the same difficulty with both of my XABFs, and I used to wonder which characteristics were intrinsic personality traits, and which were the result of Aism. I guess I wanted to figure it out as part of deciding if I should stick things out in the hope of longterm sobriety.
For example, they were both very selfish and self-centered men, even during long periods of not drinking (I won't say "recovery" because neither was working a solid program, just not drinking). This is very common in Aism -- but maybe it was an aspect of their personalities anyway, without touching a drop?
One of them (but not the other) would frequently check out other women and make admiring remarks -- this was horrible for me, as I am very insecure. I read in the second volume of Toby Rice Drews that this type of behaviour was pretty common in As too. But maybe he was just inconsiderate by nature?
Anyway, none of it really mattered. What it all boiled down to in the end was whether or not I could accept the behaviour, and set my boundaries accordingly.
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Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could... Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Emerson
Is alcoholism a disease? If so, why do we arrest DUIs but not those who can't see? Why are there DUI traffic laws, yet gradma kills two and goes free?
Is brain chemical imbalance a disease? Why does mom who drives the car off the cliff go to the nutward, when dad who shoots the family go to jail?
Al-anon teaches us that there are no bad people. Was Hitler bad or evil? Was he not imbalanced by chemicals in his brain and bad experiences, much like the alcoholic? Meanwhile, we the gangbanger who rapes and kills is a "victim of society." The only diffference between Hitler and the gangbanger is how much they were able to forward their agenda.
Fact is, society isn't sure. And has conflicting ways to handle these things.
Al-anon recognizes that alcoholism is driven by underlying issues. So where is the problem?
I believe there are two forms of alcoholism/ psych problems - those driven by psychological issues, and alcohol addiction. Hitler (a tea totaller) was the former, while Winston Churchill was the latter.
Either way, does either deserve to suffer the consequences? I don't know. We as a society like to blame the alcohol. But so many alcoholics are loving, capable, functional and successful...to the point that getting drunk at night has no effect on their family or work. Why do some succumb to the lowest actions and morals while others can get drunk, jump up, and exceed the ability of most others?
At which point do we stop blaming alcohol? In my "problem" alcohol is but a fuel on an already burning fire. While alcohol is the catalyst to stay out drinking, what causes the decision to go out in the first place? Which is at fault? Which do we forgive, and which do we call illigitimate?
Al-anon teaches us to address the actions, not the person. That has a point, because who cares why somebody does something bad? The point is that no matter the cause, we have to set boundaries- and set repercussions.
We'll not in our lifetime resolve the "why" of human behavior because we're trying to lay blame- alcohol, drugs, background and experiences. Meanwhile, society often ignores the the latter two (the poor killer was a victim of inner city society, while Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist.) Well, which is it? We don't know. We don't know who to blame, what to blame, who to punish. With alcohol, we as a society have something to blame, just like we can blame guns for killings. It's an easy out to blame to inanimate object rather than figure out what the heck caused all this.
I don't know why my W does what she does. She makes very bad decisions even when not drunk...she makes the worst decisions completely sober. We can't blame the alcohol for that.
That's why Al-anon says to address the action, not the cause. We don't understand the cause! Not just "us" but the best psychologists in the word haven't figured out what is going on with the human brain/ biochemical mix. So address the actions.
When employing boundaries, we address the action, not the reason. Because the reason is beyond us. The alcoholics and psych suffers may do things for different reasons- that is not ours to worry why. There are reasonable expectations, and thus we set boundaries on behaviour.
We don't know why people are sick. We can't even agree on what "sick" means. We can't agree on "disease." So all we can do is protect ourselves and our family against behaviours that sadly the "victim" cannot control.
Good question, and one I have been baffled by myself. Slowly I just had to come to the recognition that it "just is" and I will never know. That said, I have to say, I think many of us notice the commonalites among our As. I remember when I first became submerged into the disease and read How Al-Anon works. I was amazed and remember thinking, "who was looking in my window?"
My exH and my brother are both As. Both led a pretty straight and narrow life (or so we all thought) until they finally became gripped in the disease in their early 40's, within a year of one another. Both drank, and my bro smoked pot while my ex used prescription drugs. Personality wise, these men were very different. My sister-in-law and I are very different. And, our marriages were very different. My brother and his wife had a nice Christian home-schooling partnership, where my exH was a workaholic too and I was pretty much on my own. But, when it came down to the words coming out of these mens' mouths regarding thier marriages falling apart, they literally spoke the same words! I can honestly say that when I heard my brother say that his wife didn't support him, didn't have faith in him, wasn't available,blah, blah, blah, and rationalize behavior that was absolutely wrong by the moral standards of the modern world, exactly what my exH said, it was then that I acknowledged alcoholism was a disease.
I think we are all capable of making stupid decisions (perhaps some more than others), but I also think that the influence of drugs/alcohol make choosing to engage and getting caught up in the snowball of chaos much, much easier. The rational thought is gone, and all that remains is the primitive survival brain with the, I want it, I need it, I will get it, mentality. I have a friend who went to rehab and she said they showed MRIs of brains under the influence and not, and how it is clear that the outer brain that is in charge of rational thought, predicts consequences of actions, cares about others' feelings, etc., seizes to work when one is under the influence. I haven't seen it myself, but through my experiences, it sounds pretty accurate to me!
Blessings, Lou
-- Edited by Loupiness on Tuesday 20th of April 2010 12:44:26 AM
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Every new day begins with new possibilities. It's up to us to fill it with the things that move us toward progress and peace. ~ Ronald Reagan~
Sometimes what you want to do has to fail, so you won't ~Marguerite Bro~
Where alcoholism is present it is attached. Where alcoholism is not present it is not an issue. If your question is still is he alcoholic or not the program qualification is do you have a problem about his drinking. If you do the problem is alcoholism a compulsion of the mind and an allergy of the body and the family. Alcoholism is a primary disease...it is not a symptom of something else and has it's very own sets of pathology. Yes there are different lines of thought and there will always be different lines of thought. The phyche professional may say that the alcoholic drinks that way because he/she has problems where the alcohol and substance abuse professional says that the alcoholic has problems because they drink that way. When they arrest their dis-ease by total abstinence very often they have no more problems than any other person...alcoholic or not.
There is much more information out there that is helpful and most of the help I received that helped me understand was at the tables in the face to face meetings of the Family Groups which I supplemented with college courses. I coulda save the tuition. Keep coming back (((((hugs)))))
The other people u mention going thru breakups and having similar situations... well I do belive there are a lot more codependent people out there then any of us realizes... the A's themselves have many codependent issues.
You can be raised in dysfunction, chaos, with rage a holic or work a holic or narcissistic and other wise - emotionally unavailable parents, caregivers and pick up all the dysfucntion, a-isms and codependent and enabling behavior.
When I look around at people, celebrities, things happening in the news worldwide -- I am seeing this behavior everywhere. If you are focused on and trying to "fix" someone else - it is the disease talking.
The way to combat the disease, is to face YOUrself, focus on you and set boundaries.
I like what jerry said - ' "the disease is attached" ' - that means someone else is attaching to it, owning it, being responsible for it (to me) - dont attach and let someone else's junk stick to you. Own your own issues and feelings ~ that is all we have to do, is us. Take care and shift your focsu onto the one person u can control and change ~ YOU.
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
I think about how all kinds of people are A's. good, bad, nuts, intelligent, not so smart, etc. Some A's get clean on program and we see they are really a nice person, some yuck.
There are people who manipulate, lie, cheat and are not an A.
Anyway I was blessed that my almost ex A was a very kind, loving person. But this other guy I know, gads he was horrible when he got clean. yuck
