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Greetings to the MIP Alanon Board, I started reading here a few years ago when I began studying the effects of codependency in my life, but just read and didn't participate, for various reasons.
However I read your (Moonchild) post recently and it tugged my heartstrings, but not being a parent, I felt I really didn't have anything to offer, since I have no experience, however I participate on the AA forums here, and today I had an A-ha moment while posting, that immediately made me think of your post:
Today I had to do the hardest thing a mother should have to do. I had to turn my son (25yrs) out in the cold. No money, no job and no place to go.. I have cried all day and I just want to know if I have done the right thing. He has been a substance abuser for the past 5 yrs. I have bailed him out time and time again. He has been baker acted for trying to commit suicide 6 times. He went to Georgia 4 months ago to live with his substance abuser father. Something I had sheltered my son from since he was two. He showed up at my moms house on Friday no call just showed up and really expected us to take him in. Just tell me that I did the right thing by saying NO!
That really stuck in my head
Anyhow, I was "triggered" about something and wrote the following post in the AA forum, maybe it will be helpful. Alcoholics and addicts can and do get sober, but it's my experience that they never will as long as they are protected from the consequences of their actions. Why change when someone keeps rescuing you right? I have been around AA for near 20 years, and this has become a cold hard fact for me. Alcoholics and addicts that don't have to face the consequences of their actions and addictions can continue to live in denial.
By kicking your son out, you gave him a chance, continuing to enable him would ensure he never got help. I will pray his life gets so bad he does in fact seek help, I know it did for me and millions of others.
I initially got sober at age 27, and most of my friends all got sober in their teens and twenties, most have around or over 20 years now, so it does happen, and it's more common now then it ever has been in History. Like Huey Lewis said all those years ago "It's hip to be square", I go to meetings and see literally hundreds of young people today, from high school age all through the 20's, they have even started their own chapters of young peoples meetings in AA all over the world, ICYPAA, MCYPAA, etc (YPAA Young Peoples in AA)
Anyhow:
So writing that last response made me realize what that is, that codependency and enabling triggers me because of my mother's behaviors with my sister. That I get so upset when I see it because that behavior ruined my sister's life. My mother has been rescuing my sister from the consequences of her actions for like I said earlier, 25 years, my sister was at one time the most beautiful, amazing, talented athlete anyone had ever met, she was an extraordinary human being who grabbed the attention of anyone who ever met her, she played on men's sports teams, she could have been a World Class Surfer, among literally the best in the world, to this day I have never seen another woman surf with the style and grace she possessed even among contests in the worlds best women surfers.
She was an incredible artist and an amazing human being, she was physically one of the most beautiful women anyone had ever seen, and this was in a California Beach Town, where you throw a stick and hit 5 Robert Redfords or 5 Carmen Electras. People 20-30 years later still come up to me and ask about her, and tell me stories about how amazing they thought she was.
How do I politely say, well she is a junkie now who married an illegal alien in prison and ran off to Mexico to get pregnant at 40 with another junkie and had a retarded baby because of that, but don't worry, mom rescued her AGAIN and although retired supports her and her granddaughter so she can once again return to drugs and a life of sickness and waste.
My mother has been actively murdering my sister for 25 years and I don't think I ever properly inventoried it, hence I am still carrying it, and it manifests itself by anger when I see other people, especially in meetings enabling other alcoholics.
I get frightened and angry because I have first hand knowledge that codependency can kill alcoholics and drug addicts as certainly as the addiction will.
I see the life my sister could have had without my mother "rescuing" her from the consequences of her actions, where she may have actually gotten and stayed sober, she may have remained that beautiful woman, she may have remained my best friend, the closest person I have ever known in my life, instead of that disgustingly sick street person that ended up turning tricks to get drugs.
I blame addiction and alcoholism sure, but the truth is I blame my mother more, without her my sister had at least a fighting chance, with her enabling and saving her, she never did.
Addiction and codependency stole my sister from me and I blame codependency more. My mother is murdering my sister with her well meaning "help" so yeah, I have strong feelings about it.
So I would like to say from the perspective of an alcoholic, you did the right thing, my heart goes out to you for the courage it took and the pain it must have caused you, and I am in awe of your strength and hold you in the highest respect and esteem for doing something that very few people ever could. Your decision took unimaginable courage and I honor you for that.
-- Edited by AGO on Saturday 20th of March 2010 02:10:44 PM
Thanks for your post, and your ES&H not only to Moonchild but all the other members who are dealing with the same problem. I can only imagine how hard it is for a Mother to detach 100%, and turn her son over to HP even when they realize it's the best think they can do for him.
It has been said that no alcoholic has ever said after becoming sober---"I was saved by my Mom".------- The only answer is to turn your alcoholic over to HP, and then get out of HP's way. -----Then and only then can the miracles happen.
Isn't it amazing what we can survive......with strength...hope and pure will....living with addiction takes a toll that is a fact...and moonchild did the best thing for her son that is a fact.....the saddest fact to me is some just never get it....we all handle this disease in our own way.....your mom is a mom who loves her daughter and handled things wrong in your eyes but maybe the only way she could......It took me 18 yrs of living with addiction to throw my husband out of the house......did this make him get clean??? He is now in that life beyond where he doesn't have to suffer anymore....
The sad truth about this disease is that some never recover.....and that is just a fact....my prayers are with you......and everyone out there who is suffering on one side or the other from the affects of this disease...
One thing I have always tried to hold on to is that where there is life there is hope........
First of all I would like to say or encourage you to continue to post on this site as it personally gives me great insight into the thoughts and actions of others. That being said I would like to share that I too am the mother of an addict and have spent the last few years cushioning his bottoms. I seriously didn't know any better and the last thing i wanted was my son to die..alone, in the streets etc. I could never handle that. And of course i was in denial for a very long time. With the invaluble help of alanon and working the steps I finally got strong enough to tell my son he no longer lives here. It took me a long time to get to that place. He is in jail at the moment and I have secured him a place in a sober living home to go to upon release. After that it is up to him.... but can i stick to it if he becomes homeless? that i can't answer. I can only take it one day at a time. I do have to respectfully disagree with you that your mother is somehow to blame for your sisters decisions. I watched my mother throw my brother out at 17 and he continued to be an addict... he learned to live on the streets, couch surf even start his own business and he was a hard core H addict who didn't find recovery until HE was ready and not until he was in his late 40's. So you have nothing to base your supposion on that if your mother had turned your sister away she would have sought recovery. I know we are always looking to blame someone seems mothers get the worst of it as we die a little each time we see our children suffer. One thing we learn here is the 3 C's We didn't cause it We can't control it and We can't cure it. I am sure you know alcholics or addicts find recovery in thier own time not ours despite thier circumstances. Glad you are working on your own recovery and wish you God bless along your journey
First of all I would like to say or encourage you to continue to post on this site as it personally gives me great insight into the thoughts and actions of others. That being said I would like to share that I too am the mother of an addict and have spent the last few years cushioning his bottoms. I seriously didn't know any better and the last thing i wanted was my son to die..alone, in the streets etc. I could never handle that. And of course i was in denial for a very long time. With the invaluble help of alanon and working the steps I finally got strong enough to tell my son he no longer lives here. It took me a long time to get to that place. He is in jail at the moment and I have secured him a place in a sober living home to go to upon release. After that it is up to him.... but can i stick to it if he becomes homeless? that i can't answer. I can only take it one day at a time. I do have to respectfully disagree with you that your mother is somehow to blame for your sisters decisions. I watched my mother throw my brother out at 17 and he continued to be an addict... he learned to live on the streets, couch surf even start his own business and he was a hard core H addict who didn't find recovery until HE was ready and not until he was in his late 40's. So you have nothing to base your supposion on that if your mother had turned your sister away she would have sought recovery. I know we are always looking to blame someone seems mothers get the worst of it as we die a little each time we see our children suffer. One thing we learn here is the 3 C's We didn't cause it We can't control it and We can't cure it. I am sure you know alcholics or addicts find recovery in thier own time not ours despite thier circumstances. Glad you are working on your own recovery and wish you God bless along your journey
Thank you for your replies
My sister came home one day when she was 15, when my mother promptly told her she was done taking care of her, that she was on her own, she spent the next 30 years compounding that mistake.
My sister finally did hit her bottom, called me from jail after 20 years of living in the streets with a trap door bottom etc I went to visit her, I had spent years trying to get her into rehabs, detoxes etc and I had finally cut her loose a few years before telling her I couldn't watch her kill herself, it was too painful, but told her if she ever made the decision to get clean I would come get her and I would bend heaven and earth to help her.
When I got to the jail she had sores you could see her bones through, she could have been in a zombie movie with no make up.
We got her into a residential treatment center where she stayed for six months, I had been around aa for about 15 years at that time so I took her to meetings and introduced her to women.
When they moved her into the residential outpatient they started being "mean" to her (they made her do her chores and told her to get a job). She called my mother begging mom to get her out, I begged my mother not to do it, that she needed a year there, my mother got here out anyway. My mother bought her a double wide mobile home in an isolated area and would buy her bottles of wine, because heroin was her problem not alcohol, right?
In isolation my sister decided "her problem" was she needed "her man" the illegal alien junkie that had been deported to Mexico, once again I begged my mother not to pay her way, that she would violate probation and the 3 year suspended sentence the lawyer and I had wrangled with the judge and DA would be re-activated and she would be a fugitive. I tried to explain that what my sister needed to "fix" her was not some junkie criminal but meetings, structure, accountability, steps, a sponsor etc and that buying her a ticket to Mexico was the WORST thing she could do.
My mother of course bought her the ticket.
2 months later my mother called me, informed my sister was pregnant and I had to go "rescue" her, I used some reverse psychology and sure enough, 2 weeks before the baby was due, my sister called me and asked that I come get her, which I did.
My mother then supported my sister, bringing in the entire family to either send money or help in other ways. I personally sold my business and moved up to run my mothers restaurant as she was working 100 hour weeks to support my sister, so my sister could eat bon bons and watch Oprah, mother continued to buy her wine and vodka, AND protect her from any consequences of her actions.
There are 25 years of these stories, I personally got sober in 1992, I have a pretty good working knowledge of what it takes to get and stay sober. I have spent quite a bit of time "doing" alanon, I know about the 3 C's, I know about going to the hardware store for bread, I know melody beatty's books, sobriety and recovery has been a major focus of my life for 2 decades, but I am going to have to say, yes, I unreasonable or not, I carry a LOT of blame for my mother in this situation, every. single. time. I have been able to help my sister get sober my mother has come in and undermined it, every single time my sister has had a fighting chance, my mother has come in and undermined it, every single time my sister had a choice of 2 roads, 1 leading to sobriety, and one leading to a return to drugs, my mother has provided the necessary cushion and money to insure a return to drugs.
I mean my mother would give my sister opium based pain killers for a headache
I have disowned my mother after the last incident, in which I personally ended up losing my home, my girlfriend, and my business as a direct result of getting involved in my mothers sick dynamic with her daughter.
So, yes, the disease is tragic, and the disease took my sister, but in this case, I have to say mother had a GREAT deal to do with "causing" it in this case by kicking her out at age 15 so my mother could live with her boyfriend, and then rescuing her from the consequences of her actions for the next 25 years along with removing her every time she got in a healthy environment like a rehab or someplace she had to do things....get a job and pay rent.
hence some unresolved resentments
So the point I am making is you guys are here ARE learning how to be healthy, you ARE learning how to set boundaries, and not only care for yourself, but quite frankly by showing tough love giving your children the best chance they have to survive, I am holding my mother up as an example what NOT to do, she literally fed the disease of addiction. The fact that my mother is a raging alcoholic/codependent that needs to create the dynamic of being the martyr while wearing the pants and keeping control played a large part in all of this.
We all do the best we can, but in this case, my mothers best made sure my sister never had a chance. I see the opposite here at MIP, like I said, I have been reading here for a few years, I see you guys making positive changes, my mother never did that.
-- Edited by AGO on Sunday 21st of March 2010 03:03:25 PM
I hear ya loud and clear Ago I spent my whole life surrounded by alcholics, addict, ragaolics etc...was trained at an early age to "take care of them" " clean up thier messes" etc. The only boundary i had was I wouldn't bail any of them out of jail including my own son. I had a chance at alanon over 20 years ago and ran from it. Sheesh I was just fine thank you. Had I stayed I may have learned lessons and gotten rid of all the isims that were intergrated into me. But oh no again I wasn't the sick one who needed help so that ended quickly. Had I stayed maybe i wouldnt have unknowingly passed those isims on to my own children but i just couldn't see that at the time. Hence even though my son was not raised in an alcholic/addictive family he chose drugs. Of course i was in denial for way to long, I mean he had what I thought was the perfect childhood. 2 loving parents, supportive, involved etc. We went so far as to move our children 3 states away from the toxic relatives and thought that was the answer. But no So it took me hitting my own bottom to seek help. believe me when i tell you i beat myself up everyday for not getting help sooner. My daughter is much like you and is very resentful of me for letting this happen so I understand where you are coming from with the resentment. My daughter chooses to have limited contact with me due to her resentment. Sheesh it took me 49 years to hit my bottom.... if distancing yourself from your mom works for you then by all means. But speaking as a mom I can tell you nothing you can do or say can make her feel any worse than she already does. I am thankful for MIP showing me a different way of living but it doesn't help to break my heart any less to turn my son out...it just gave me the strenght to do so. Will i ever slip and rescue him again... can't say. I pray for the strenght but until something happens i can't say what i will do. Can i know he is sleeping in the streets or gutters, can i risk he will overdose again and no one will find him, can i risk his death.... don't know my program says let him live his life, the mother in me says save him. One of my favorite sayings is " when the student is ready the teacher will appear" I feel thats how I got to alanon I was finally ready. Before that Ijust did what i knew to do from past behaviors... obviously they weren't working anymore. But i know if something bad happens to my son people will also place blame on me and if i enable him i get the same blame so damned if i do and damned if i don't. Your mom just isn't ready for recovery she is still sick ( as am I ). I enjoy your posts while we may not always agree i welcome your opinion and ESH anytime Blessings on your journey
Thank You Xeno, I found your posts healing and helpful, just a little more resentment slipped away, I came here to try and be helpful to Moonchild but got help in return, gotta love 12 steppin, I always get the unexpected hand up when I reach out to help someone.
Thank you again, I know my mother couldn't possibly feel any worse then she does and that it's killing her, as in literally killing her via her alcoholism and codependency (she was working 100 hours a week in order to support her husband and daughter) which IMO began in earnest when she began making decisions that she would never forgive herself for, which begat heavy drinking, which begat more dubious "unforgivable" (to herself) decisions etc which begat her incredibly toxic codependency which caused more "unforgivable" decisions and so on.
What I failed to see or forgot about, was she made these decisions in order to be the rescuer, then accuser, then victim, she could be the martyr but retain 100% control, the truth is she did it all in order to retain complete control, and she used her "martyrdom" in order to get family members to send $$$, in running the restaurants I started encountering monthly checks she was receiving from the rest of the family, she was making a GOOD living by being a martyr, she was spending maybe 1k a month caring for my sister and receiving at least 3x that by crying martyr which in turn went to supporting herself and her husband and keeping them in drink.
Evidently you can make a good living from codependency if done right.
I had learned about 15 years ago or so to NEVER ever ever criticize my mother as a result of my step work, or she would spiral out of control into "guilt ridden bad mom martyr" and she'd be untenable for days or weeks afterwards, the guilt she carries for abandoning her 2 children is INTENSE and truthfully we had a pretty good relationship for about 12 years or so until I "forgot" our childhood dynamics and stuck my head back in the Tiger's mouth, and put myself in her control, which since she left my father, and I chose to stay with him, she had been trying to do since I was 10.
I just flat out forgot "our" power struggle and dropped my guard, probably because I was focused on getting the proper care for my niece.
Family of Origin stuff can kill us even after we think we left it all behind years and years before and think we have worked through it, I had done a TON of therapy and stepwork around this stuff and thought it was all behind me, I was totally caught offguard..
Wow, reading all your posts humble me. I always thought it was the worst life ever to be married to an alcoholic, but I can see I would never have wanted to be a Mother of an addict. I cant imagine the suffering it causes. I know of Mothers that have lost their children to addiction and I can only imagine the pain.
I know I have had my own issues with my daughter but not one of addiction, but when your a Mother, your damned if you do and damned if you dont. My daughter was taken by her Father out of the country when she was 6 and we were not reunited until she was 25. By then she was pretty brainwashed against me. Today she is 42 and we have worked on the relationship, but it still has its bad days, since she blames me, because her Father is not around to blame. She is separating from her husband because he is an addicted gambler. I divorced my husband also , due to his addiction to alcoholic. Is it all genetic. I dont have the answers.
I do know that I was married to the A for 26 years and he did not stop drinking until after he was asked to leave. In the first year he almost died a few times before he chose to live. We all have different stories, different outcomes, but I would no longer see the A killing himself and be a party to it.
Whether the addict lives or dies, its their choice. A young teen living in my house, would still be my responsibility, they dont have all the coping tools to deal with life and legally your still responsible for their life. If I had to pick them up physically and put them in a sober living, rehab, etc. that is certainly what I would do. I believe in tough love with kids. Let them hate me, it might save a life of misery and hell. I have a very close friend, she was a single parent. Her son was drinking and on drugs and disturbing the peace in the family home, continually, he was 16 and continued on this path. My friend told him if he didnt stop, or go to school or get a job, he would have to leave when he turned 18. The day he turned 18 he had neither and was still using. He was asked to leave, he didnt believe it. My friend got his bike out of the garage and told him to get on it and not to come back until he respected the family, stopped his drug use and made a useful human being out of himself. Well, Im happy to say that gentlemen is 27 years old, went to a sober living, then went to Berkley, graduated, is sober of course and is a productive human being today. I have a few stories like that. The youth are the future. They can still be molded. A parent has a lot more power than they think, even if you are hated for awhile. Your not their friend , your their parent. This is just my opinion. Thanks for letting me share.
Hello Ago, Thank you so much for your thoughts and experience. I too watched my mother enable my brother for the past 32 years. He is an Addict, Thief, etc. Been in and out of jail for 30 years. My mom constantly rescued him... I kept thinking to myself, Why is she rewarding him for his bad behavior? Like your mom she bought him things, gave him money got him a place to live , furnish it, clean it etc.. I also came from a very disfunction family... I did my own stent with drugs and A. But I grew up ... I resented my mom for a very long time.. But I came to the conclusion that for what ever reason my mom chose to do these things for my brother, it was ger lesson not mine. What ever guilt he holds reguarding my brother, She owns it not me. Yes, I get pissed when I see her doing the same pattern.. She has enabled my step father to be a verbally abusive SOB for over 30 yrs. Again, Thats her deal not mine. My mother knows that I want the best for here, She knows that she doesn't have to live the life she does... It is easy to stay in the same situation then it is to be strong and move on.
Like your sister my son is very handsome, intelligent, athlete, Sweet, .... Everyone loves Jayson... BUT he has been an A for the past 5 years.. So that Jayson doesnt exsist.. A new Jayson will emerge because HP is in control now not me... It feels good to let it go and let God. My point is , I saw my mom in me, I saw myself doing the same things my mom did for my brother... I have to younger kids and I knew that I could not do to them as mom did to me. So.... I said NO.. and I will continue to say NO.. until he proves himself otherwise. In my soul I am constantly affirming positve things for Jay.. Constantly praying and giving Thanks for his NEW sober life. I pray for the RIGHT people to watch over him when I can not. And I am so FAITHFUL and GRATEFUL that he is finding himself again or not.
For you Ago, I learned along time ago that there are NO victums or villians. We call or own situation so we can grow and become stronger and more loving people.
I send my Blessings to you and your family, May today be the day that your mom can see what your sister truily is... at this moment in time. A USER in every scence of the word.
Hugs to you, Please keep writting to me. My son is still in mental health hosiptal. Week 2. He is interviewing with a gentlemen from Salvation Army to work the 6 month program. This takes place Thursday.... I am not worried about it because I know that whatever is meant to be is going to be.
