"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

Festfan · Veteran Member

Boundries vs. Control vs. Ultimatums

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi, Festfan -- that's a crucial question and I'm eager to hear what others have to say. Would it be something about how an ultimatum is a way of trying to control him ("Do this or suffer the consequences") and a boundary is a way of protecting yourself ("For my own sake I can't be with you while you're still drinking")? For me, the key was to let go of expectations. I kept expecting that he would stop drinking, especially when the consequences were spelled out to him. But he never did. When I found out that only something like 25% of drinkers who go into recovery (never mind the ones who never even start) manage to stay sober longterm, I realized that the odds were against it. That was a hard truth to take in. Of course, 25% of drinkers who attempt to recover is still thousands of drinkers. Still, the odds are against it.

The other thing I didn't realize for a long time was that alcoholics lie as a matter of course. If I told him, "I can't do X if you've been drinking," he'd simply say he hadn't been drinking. Sometimes I couldn't tell if he was a little funny or if it was just my paranoia. Later I realized that my instincts had been right -- he had a million sneaky ways of drinking. To this day I have never seen him take a drink. But I've found the bottles and cans, I've seen the consequences of the DUIs and the failed court-ordered rehab, and I've found him passed out. Still he denies that he drinks too much, and he has never admitted that he's been drunk in my presence. Anyway, my point is that if you say "I can only hang out with you if you haven't been drinking," what do you do if he says he hasn't been drinking -- but then he acts a little funny? Because unless he goes into recovery, he will drink. That's what they do. And can you police his visits to AA, so as to know whether you can hang out with him or whether he's in violation of the agreement?

My guess is that if you want to see him sometimes, a different way of establishing how you'll do it will work better. I don't know what that would be exactly. And if he goes on drinking, do you want to see him? Because the odds are that he will.

These are hard questions, and I'm sure the answers are different for everybody. Hugs to you.

Jen · ~*Service Worker*~

Good questions, Mattie. And another thing to consider is that an alcoholic who stops drinking without a program of recovery is just a drunk who is not drinking. Their behavior is often the same and sometimes it gets even worse as they remain sober with no support and no coping skills.

So, the problem isn't actually the drinking, it is the behavior associated with the disease. For me, I told my AH when we separated that I would no longer tolerate his bad behavior. I never said about the drinking or drug use. My boundary was to protect me and keep my sanity, not to get him sober. I had to let go of the idea for good that I could do anything to help him besides protect myself.

The disease uses us to pile more guilt on them about how they treat us. That makes them want to drink more. So by not protecting myself, I made it worse, not better.

But the real issue is that as long as we stay hooked into the disease and the fantasy that we can somehow "help", we will stay sick and so will they.

I don't know what you should do about a future relationship with your A. But as far as boundaries are concerned, just make sure that they are totally for your benefit and if you are honest about your motives, you will be ok. It took me a lot of time and soul searching and guidance from other alanoners, to learn how to be that honest. Don't expect yourself to get it on the first try. Just keep trying and learning.

A boundary is a barrier to protect me.

An ultimatum is a control tactic or manipulation to try to get him to do something.

Remember that a boundary also cannot make you the policing agent. You cannot be responsible for his behavior. You cannot be responsible in this case for knowing if he is drinking or not. You are not a mind reader.

Sorry I am tired and this is rambling a bit. I hope it helps.

In recovery,

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Wow mattie and Jen are so right on!

I know I cannot base what I am going to do on anyone else.

To me boundaries are what "I" need to keep my life manageable. Can only take so much.

One thing I learned, is not to use the word YOU when speaking to someone. Puts them on the defensive.

I often say becuz of Al Anon I have realized these things in myself.

A I have trouble being around people who drink. I choose not to be around them.It is up to them if they use or not.

I know I could be around others if they were working on a plan of recovery, not using, going to meetings etc.

Realized for ME, I am more comfortable in having a "dry life."

If you choose to stop the commitment or relationship, maybe, you know I still love the people in my life who like to drink and sure hope they contact me when they are clean.

I used to say this a lot to AH. Wow I sure-would not make that choice. How hard that must be.

Compassion. they are sick. we don't have to be.

If my ex AH called me, I would listen. Would not respond to any bolony. I do zero for him. zero.

I hope i said something here that will help.

I love the posts where people sorta babble along and let their hearts out. I learn so so much. so much.

hugs,debilyn

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

To me, the biggest difference between boundaries and ultimatums are that boundaries are for ME (i.e. "I need" statements), whereas ultimatums are for YOU ("You need to...." or You should" or "You must").

A lot of it has to do with motives and intent.... The actual item may be fairly similar, but it is your motive that is different.... For example, your boundary that you will see him, but only if he is not drinking.... That is a very legitimate boundary, that YOU need for YOUR serenity and well being.... You are not controlling his behavior, not saying that he cannot ever drink - just simply putting some parameters around how it can work if he wants to see you..... It leaves him the choice whether to adhere to it or not - he can choose to honor your boundary, and thus get to spend time with you.... or he can choose to drink, and thus lose his opportunity to spend time with you...

Hope that helps

Tom

Festfan · Veteran Member

Thank you all so much! The ABF is asking about when we can see each other and I know that I need to say something to him, which I believe should be an in person discussion (there are no issues of anger or violence between us). I just need to determine what the best boundaries (see, I've learned to spell now too) are for ME.

Ness · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Festfan...thanks for posting this. Setting boundaries has been top of my survival list for the last year. I agree with what the others have said.....they are set to protect you, and not to control the A.

I have to work on watching how I word stuff, making sure to keep the emphasis on my recovery. I have a boundary of not seeing him (my A is my son) while he is active (which these days is always).....he is yanking my wire about this at the moment as he is currently hurting in his disease and wants to see his family.....but still wants to drink while here.

Im trying hard to keep handing him respect and dignity in whatever I say in the hope that hell begin to respect himself again. We have a very good relationship, he respects why boundaries are in place......he knows Im in Alanon and he has been in and out of AA...... but there is no way he can physically be in my life at the moment......toxic toxic toxic.....I just fall apart when I see the shell of a person he has become. Boundaries are essential for ME, for MYsurvival.

Keep coming back

In support.......Ness

Tracy · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Festfan.
Over the past 5 years i have tried everything to get my ABF to stop drinking. I too was very confused between boundaries and control. I used to tell him all the time he could not have me in his life unless he stopped.
But they can not just stop they are ill and a big part of the illness is denial that they are sick. So he would promise he would stop, he would try and stop but he would always drink again because he was doing it to keep me, not because he wanted to. The after 18 months in Al non i went to a convention and had an Aha moment. I could not stop him drinking and he could not stop drinking because he loved me, alcoholic mothers can not even stop when they are hurting their children its not about love. This time I went home and said I could not have him in my life while he was drinking, I told him he was ill and I was too and that i needed to be around healthy people in recovery and hoped that one day he would want to recover for himself. this time I was not saying this to control and make him stop i was saying it for me. I left and worked on my programme. A couple of months later he rang he had joined AA because he wanted too. I believe the day I stopped controling Hp tepped in. I understand your confusion no amount of pleading, threatening will stop them. they do love us but they are sick.

Keep working your programme the ansers come in time
hugs

kitty · ~*Service Worker*~

" I'm confused about the difference between setting boundries and trying to make rules/control. I think I want to tell him that I am here for him if he seeks help for his drinking. I also think that I want to say that we can see each other from time to time, but only if he isn't drinking AT ALL. But how is that different than an ultimatum??"-Festfan

Saying I am here for you if u seek help for ur drinking, is sort of like trying to control him. Ultimatums with A's usually back fire and I wouldnt suggest u do that.

Boundaries, however are quite different. If u say, my boundary is that I will only see you when u are sober, is a good boundary but it is an invitation for him to be even more sneaky and secretive - its like ur telling him how to lie to you. Idk if I'd do that personally. I also had to learn to stop telling my A's about my feelings, again it only makes them better at manipulating you.

Boundaries are for us, to help give us a plan of action to follow - it is a simple, if - then scenario. If ur intoxicated, then I will leave. Nothing personal against you, it is my boundary. No one (especally A's) respects an empty threat. Make sure the boudnaries u set up are ones u can follow through on.

When I first got here, my only boundaries were physical - if I get hit, Im gone, no questions asked. If u cheat - I'm gone. I still have those boundaries BUT I have many more today as well. I no longer tolerate unacceptable behavior and I dont compromise myself at all anymore.

I used the six guidelines to establish boudnaries for myself. They really work but be absolutely sure, u can follow through on them.
Once I did set and follow thru on my own boundaries, I experienced emotional detachment for the first time in my life. It felt like freedom. I also gained self respect. You are worth it and so much more.

6 GUIDELINES FOR SETTING BOUNDARIES

HAVE CLEARLY DEFINED EXPECTATIONS.
CLEARLY DEFINED CONSEQUENCES THAT DONT DISRUPT YOUR SERENITY.
SET THEM CLEARLY.
COMMUNICATE THEM THEM CLEARLY.
ENFORCE THEM CONSISTENTLY.
WITHOUT REGARD FOR THE RELATIONSHIP (RELEASE ANY EXPECTATIONS ABOUT THE OUTCOME).

Boundaries are to protect you. Not to control someone else. No one respects an empty threat, so make sure it is something you can follow through on.

The boundaries are for YOU. In time u may change/alter them to suit you or the circumstance. When u out grow a boundary and dont need it anymore - u will know that too. I add this bc that is what happened to me a few times in dealing with my parents.

I made the boundary that I would not visit my mom if her AH was there. Then I would visit her but if her AH began to abuse me emotionally - then I left. After about a year, I had detached so much from his behavior, that I didnt need to leave anymore bc his words had no power over me & I could ignore him entirely.

Take what u like & leave the rest. Take care of YOU, whatver that looks like.

Festfan · Veteran Member

Kitty, Tracy and Ness -

Great & Powerful ESH from you all. I'm reading at work (which I shouldn't be doing, but needing the support b/c its close to the weekend and I know I need to DO SOMETHING or SAY SOMETHING to my BF). Anyway - you guys move me to tears (in a good way) and I'm so grateful for the guidance.

I understand why they say you shouldn't make any big decisions right away in Al Anon - I don't have the tools and learning still about detachment and boundaries and how to take care of me. But the limbo is getting to me too - I really hate uncertaintly!

Kitty - I'm saving those guidelines - they are great and a very clear way of looking at it.

Peace,

White Rabbit · ~*Service Worker*~

This is a good reminder. Sometimes I'm not so good with the difference. I think I'm setting a boundary, but really I'm giving an ultimatum because I have definite expectations of what the other person will do.

I think boundaries are parameters that I set without regard to what's going on outside them. I maintain the parameters regardless of what someone else does. If I decide I don't want to be around him when he drinks, I leave. I agree that this could be phrased as an "I need" kind of statement.

Ultimatums are when I threaten a consequence if the other person doesn't do what I want, and in my experience, looks something like this: "If you go to the bar after work and stay out all night and don't call one more time, I'm gonna leave." I said that a lot, and of course I never left ... so after the first time when I didn't leave, he didn't believe me anymore anyway.

kitty · ~*Service Worker*~

Expectations always end up hurting us in the end. I try to not have any anymore, at all. I mean, I can expect the sun to rise but as far as other people go, I try not to assume I know what they will do or what will happen. The truth is I can only control myself ~ who knows what could happen to me but I dont think/project about the future anymore. I stay firmly and clearly in right now/today. Right now, I can do something to empower myself, I can do something to allow myself to feel better.

I think ultimatums are an attempt to control &/or manipulate someone else. They usually back fire. Anyway I have learned to simply ask for what I want and then detach from the outcome and not obsess about it either. See, I believe I am a recovering control freak and many of these issues (dynamics with the A) have to do with control.

As I focus on me, I gain personal power.

blender_girl · Senior Member

Mattie wrote:

For me, the key was to let go of expectations.

This was a biggie for me. Setting and holding my personal boundaries without letting go of the outcome was a slippery slope for me. Once in a while, I got positive results, but more often than not, I set myself up for more pain.

When I let go of the outcome, I find that even if others react negatively to me enforcing my boundaries, I gain some self-respect. I also noticed that even after the others' negative reaction, they started treating me with a bit more respect after they got over being mad at me.

I, like Kitty, am also a "recovering control freak" (lol - love ya, Kitty!) and am finding a lot more peace by letting go of the things I cannot change. I never would have thought this to be possible, but am so very grateful to have gotten a glimpse of the benefits of learning this lesson (over and over again - I'm stubborn!).

Setting and enforcing boundaries takes a lot of practice for me. I still have my training wheels and still make a lot of mistakes, but it's getting easier for me as time goes on as long as I don't give up on ME. I am learning to identify my mistakes, figure out what not to do again, forgive myself and keep moving on. It's definitely a process and I have to constantly keep the slogan "progress, not perfection" in mind.

I'm rambling now - so hopefully some of this helps you!

love in recovery,

bg

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

6 GUIDELINES FOR SETTING BOUNDARIES