"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

Hawk120025 · Veteran Member

Why do so many women stay? (Men, too?)

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

My honest belief is that for one thousand different people there are one thousand different reasons..... That being said, I also have seen, countless times, where people leave their A's, don't work on themselves, and invariably end up with another A.....

For me personally, I stayed well beyond what I would consider a "normal effort".... and I think much of it was stubborness, and the refusal to "lose". My ego got way in the way of any recovery I may have tried early on, as I was determined to both "fix my wife" and "fix my marriage", and I had no acceptance that I needed to "fix myself". Well, as life would have it, I failed miserably at the first two, and the last one is still very much a work in progress.... :)

Tom

p.s. I didn't take offense to your post, and truly believe & hope that you are not insinuating that "stay = weak, leave = strong" - there are simply too many variables for any of us to lump any of that judgment together....

-- Edited by canadianguy on Wednesday 16th of December 2009 01:34:18 PM

MaryPoppins · Veteran Member

Hi Hollie,

Well, like everyone has different reasons for leaving, everyone has different reasons for staying.

My reasons are that often you are simply trading one set of problems for another.

As far as kids are concerned, well, when you are still married you can keep an eye on them mostly, and be there for them to come to if Dad is drunk. In a separation or divorce, drunk Dad gets visitation and you don't know what is going on, if the is drunk or not, or drunk driving them around or not. Then, of course, Dad gets a GF who may or may not be a person of good character, who will be around your kids a lot and possibly helping to raise them while Dad is drunk. Even if you get a new guy, who is to say that he will be prince charming? StepDads are a whole nuther world of possible problems. Statistics show that the great majority of young girls who are molested by a parent or adult in the home, are molested by a stepdad. Yes, bioligal Dads molest too, but not as often. That is a sad FACT in our society.

Then there is the financial issues. Often the mom and kids must move, and usually not to a better neighborhood or nicer home. This is not just a material issues, but a crime issue as well. Then, the mom must often work long hours and the kids are unsupervised and problems happen from that. Kids often do not like their parents dating and more change, so there is another set of problems.

All of this would be worth it if the situation was really bad, but often it is not that bad.

In my case, my husband is not physically abusive, does not cheat, and is a workaholic and is seldom home and when he is home, is holed up in his room either drinking, drunk, knocked out, sleeping, or working. We seldom have any interaction with him, so he is easy to ignore.

If he was having drunken friends over, did not work or spent up the money on drugs, or did not pay bills, continued to drive drunk with our daughter, or be physically abusive, or even cheated, I would have to reassess the situaion.

Each person has to do what is right for them in this IMPERFECT world. Many women have left an A, with all of the upheaval to their children, and ended up with another A and the additional problems that stepparents bring.

Out of the fireplace into the fire...

In this IMperfect world, people make the best decisions that they can but THEY have to live with it.

If I could leave my A and be financially fine, have good medical coverage like I do now, and be able to TOTALLY cut him out of my daughters life and mine I probably would leave him, but that isn't going to happen in this world. Even the worst Dads get visitation, and statistics show that 99.9% of the time, women take a huge drop in the standard of living after a divorce. I am not talking fancy cars here, but necessities like health insurance, access to good health care, clean water, and safe living conditions.

So, it is important not to be judgemental of people who stay in a marriage, just like it is important to not be judgemental of those who leave.

intothewoods · Veteran Member

Thank you MaryPoppins. As a woman who is staying, I was offended by the judgement in this post, and I appreciate your comment. I won't get into my reasons for staying because they're not important. What IS important is that I'm not judged for them.

Christy · ~*Service Worker*~

This is not my scenerio, but one I am understanding of.

Many times woman have small children, sometimes 2-3. They have been stay at home Mom's. They may have little job skills in an economy that is suffering. So, first the woman has to have money to get out. She has none. She looks to her future and knows since she has no skills, she most likely will get a job for minimum wage. She has to pay rent, utilities, and day care for 2-3 children, plus feed and clothe them on less then $300.00 a week. Looks pretty grim doesn't it? It certainly doesn't mean they feel unworthy of a better life.

Also, not every A steals and cheats. Mine never had a DUI, cheated on me or went to jail. Please don't assume I think little of myself for staying. I think of myself as strong and am confident in my decision to stay. We've been married 22 yrs.

-- Edited by Christy on Wednesday 16th of December 2009 03:49:14 AM

MaryPoppins · Veteran Member

Hi Hollie,

I realized that I had answered your post in generalities and had not answered your specific questions, so as a woman who has stayed in a marriage to a SERIOUS A, I will answer them now.

Hawk120025 wrote:

I've been posting now for about 5 months and one thing has really stood out to me - women really struggle with leaving the relationship. Why?

Because a separation/divorce is not just "leaving the relationship" it is changing your entire life including perhaps where you live and where your children will go to school. You and your children may lose access to health care, safe sanitary living conditions, and nutritious food. You will change your income, lifestyle, and debt load, and usually NOT for the better. It is never that simple of just leaving the interpersonal relationship with your A partner. There are many many practical considerations that go way beyond an emotional relationship with another person.

Why do you feel you aren't worthy of something better?

Who is to say that leaving your A husband or partner will lead you to something better? There are a LOT of alcoholics and addicts out there, and lots of just plain jerks. I have known many people who have never touched a drop of alcohol who are just plain insensitive jerks, there are no guarentees in life. Just because you leave one relationship does not mean you will live happily ever after, life is not a fairy tale. Many women don't leave because they feel they ARE worthy of something better, they don't want to plunge themselves into poverty because their alcoholic mate isn't prince charming and has more imperfections than average. They feel they ARE worthy of something better, a sober spouse, and they keep hoping that with alanon and other help things may get better.

Why do continue to put up with the A behavior?

Leaving your A partner is no guarantee you will never have to put up with A behavior, you may work with an A, date another A, or have one as a neighbor or relative. AND, when you have children you are NEVER rid of your A, and will always have to put up with their A behavior. Even when the kids are grown there will be graduations, weddings, birth of grandkids, grandkid Bdays, etc. where you will have to put up with their A behavior. Even if you end up with a non-A in your next relationship, he will not be perfect, and you don't know what you will have to put up with, maybe even worse behavior. My A is a horrible drunk but is a workaholic who makes a good income. I have a friend whose husband doesn't drink and is not an addict, but he is a lazy bum who doesn't work much, so she has to work long hours to pay the bills while he sits at home and watches TV and plays video games. I have to be honest and say I would rather have a NON abusive A husband who works and pulls his weight around here and pays the bills, then a bum who buys me flowers with my own hard earned money.

What are you afraid of that keeps you in such horrible relationships?

Not only A relationships are horrible, you simply can't run away from every "difficult" person in your life with issues. You may have a painful relationship with your parents, neighbors, or have a toxic boss or coworker. In this economy, jobs are hard to come by, you may have to learn to deal with it. Facing facts isn't mere "fear", do research, divorced mom's have a HARD life often, unless they are independantally wealthy, which most are not. And, as I pointed out earlier, kids will KEEP you in some sort of horrible relationship with the A FOREVER. There is the divorce/separation, then custody issues, then visitation, then child support, ALL which have to be worked out and enforced. You will not only stay in the horrible relationship with the A on some level, but it will often be worse with so much drama involved. You will deal with the A forever if you had kids with him, even when they are grown they will probably be a part of the child's life and you will see them at all important life occasions and the sparks may continue to fly.

Why do you "stay for the kids" when they're being exposed to such deplorable behavior? Get someone in their lives who is a better example.

Who? Where are all of these perfect men who are stellar examples and want someone else's family? Stepdads are a notorious time bomb of drama. First you have to like them, then the kids have to like him, then he has to life you AND your kids, a tall order. Then you got the ones who pretend to like your kids to get to you, and you don't find out the truth until emotional damage has been done. Truth be told, even if he is a horrible A, most Dads love their kids, more than any stepdad could or would and kids can feel it. Kids like their parents together even if there are problems, and stepfamilies have more problems then intact nuclear families. There are always exceptions, but I am speaking in general by statistics. Kids are often hurt most by a divorce, even if things were difficult with an A Dad. Kids don't like living in two houses, or adjusting to new BF and GF, so they often end up emotionally scarred JUST from the divorce/separation process. This is before Mom or Dad even get a new person in their life and all of the hard changes that brings.

Isn't being lonely but at peace so much better than in the chaos that ensues from an A relationship?

If you have kids you won't be at peace, you will always deal with the A with custody, support, visitation issues. And they will likely be hostile due to the breakup. Most people don't like to be lonely, they eventually want to have a relationship with another person, then they may have problems with that. Chaos is a part of many people's life, it isn't exclusive to A's.

It just breaks my heart that so many women think so little of themselves that they hang on to any little thread of relationship no matter how bad the big picture is.

Christy said it best, it is not that they think they are unworthy, it is because they are realists and know what a harsh world this is for single mothers. Even if they have a college education, as I do, they likely have had to let go of their career to care for the children to protect them from the A lifestyle. I had to quit my job since my A husband would not stop drunk driving our daughter around in the car. I had to make sure I was home to prevent it from happening. Meanwhile my career got sidetracked and after many years, my skills became somewhat outdated. I can only imagine how hard it would be for someone without a formal education to enter the job market. Paying a house payment, car payment, insurance, food, clothes, etc. AND child care is a tall order and most single women cannot do it all alone, they have to fight tooth and nail to get regular child support from the A or go on public assitance. That isn't very fun, things would have to be awfully rotten with the A for that to feel OK. Not all A's are abusive and impossible to live with, they are not any worse than other people with "issues" such as mental or emotionall illness which is untreated.

I still cry - five months later - over the breakup with the love of my life. However, I have yet to hear one person tell me I did the wrong thing. And although I still have moments of sadness, I would much rather have that than being lied to, cheated on, stolen from, blamed for, manipulated, worried, etc.

Just curious & trying to understand.
Hollie

I find your statement that you have not heard one person tell you it was wrong to leave your A curious. What does it matter what people think? YOU have to live with the consequences of your choices, not other people. That is why I have always ignored alanoners who urge me to leave my spouse. One person told me the very act of staying in the marriage was "enabling" since it gave my A the semblance of normality. I let them share their ESH and I did was was best for me. That is why we say in alanon not to give advice, since the one giving advice is NOT the person that will live with the fallout of that advice.

I am glad you made a decision that was right for you and you have no regrets, I am glad it worked out that way. But, everyone has the right to make that decision for themselves. Many people do not look before they leap and then are sorry they made foolish decisions based on emotion and what other people say.

I believe in the promis of alanon, that you can learn to be happy and live your life DESPITE what the A does, whether they get sober or not, or whether you stay in the relationship or not, it doesn't matter, YOU can still learn to take care of YOU and THRIVE! There is room for all in alanon.

I hope this answers all of your questions and you have a better understanding of "the other side".
MP

kitty · ~*Service Worker*~

I have wondered this too bc my mom stays in a less than good enough marriage. Her AH cheatted on her but in hindsight, it isnt really any wonder why. Four years ago when she told me he cheated, she also told me she had not been with him sexually in ten years. She sd he disgusted her, so I can understand both her for not wanting to be with him and for him succumbing to looking for that outlet. How sad for them both.

She tried to throw him out numerous times back then. It was evident he wasnt going anywhere, so she banished him to the pool house. It cant be more than 300 square feet out there but he has stayed. Their relationship has evolved into a different sort of partnership, they're like business partners and better friends today. They will always be each other's companion, it seems. And no, I dont understand it but I do accept it & detach with love. I cant live their lives, I know I tried for 25 years. They have to want to change and it not only isnt my business, I do belive our helaing has to do with what is in God's time, not ours.

Ever since four years ago, my mom went back to her previous bf, from thirty years earilier. He was still madly in love with her. My step dad is stil with the much younger woman he cheated on my mom with. It used to floor me back then, when they would invite me to come to dinner with them all but they are making it work, in their chosen extended family. I accept them, I had to stop judging them by my own standard. Once I did, my resentments fell away too. I dont have to understand their life or relationships, I only need to accept their choces and detach & re-focus on me and what am I doing.

Great thread!

Diva · ~*Service Worker*~

I am a financially independent woman who stays. My A partner doesn't cheat, steal, get arrested, beat me or the dogs, or commit any of the myriad of offenses I often read about here. He binges. He refuses to involve himself in AA or any other program. Says they are all too "God related" for him. And so it goes, year after year. Once every six months or so he gets drunk and stays that way for a week. When he is not drinking, he is charming, smart, gentle, funny, sexy, giving, gorgeous to look at, well-liked, admired, and all the other positive adjectives you can think of. When he is drunk he is terrible. Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde type.

Why do I stay with him. Frankly, my dear, I don't know.

Diva

david62 · ~*Service Worker*~

Hello Hollie,

I stayed, as Tom put it, "well beyond what I would consider a "normal effort"" too.

In fact, it was the alcoholic who finally left me. Why did I stay? Because I wasn't ready to leave. Pride. Fear. Love. Obsession. Codependency. And a whole lot more words too. smile

Did I want something better? You bet I did. That's why I kept on trying to make changes...when I finally gave up on changing her, I started in on me, to make myself into whatever she needed me to be for HER to be happy. Because if she was, I was. I had no idea how to do it alone.

I wonder sometimes too....why? Why doesn't that person get out??? Each time I do, I have but to look at myself and the answer is... Oh yeah, I remember how it was now.

I am with MP on one thing you said too, about crying for 5 months, but others telling you, you did the right thing. I ask this, and not in a mean or sarcastic way, but quite honestly....do you think you did the right thing, or do you still have doubts?

Its the failure of each of us to have a crystal ball issued to us at birth that is the problem, isn't it? smile

Oh and just for the record, to those who replied to you about step fathers, because that got my hackles up for a moment, lol. I was one of those step fathers. And I was a damned good one. Statistics, smatistics..... there are good people, and there are damaged people who hurt others. We might be fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles and yes even "wicked" step mothers and step fathers.

I was an imperfect step father. I did things I regretted even as I was doing them. But, so does any parent...even a biological one.

Any how, thanks Hollie for asking the question, that is how we grow in understanding. Keep coming back.

Yours in Recovery,
David

suzydawn · Member

I too am a financially independent woman apart from my AH. I made the decision to stay, at least for now, because I pretty much have total control over our preschool son. Just like the above posts, divorced he would be allowed visitation rights and who knows then what behavior or care my son would be exposed to even with the love I know my AH has for him. Based on some of his past relationships I'm pretty sure he would hook-up with someone with a substance abuse problem . . . I work with a nurse who recently divorced her AH because he returned to drinking after his 4th DUI. Imagine her surprise when the judge ordered her to pay him $100 a week for child support when she has their 4yr most of the time. She works week-end option like I do which means working weekends only (24hrs wk) for full time pay and then being home all week. So, she has primary care of their son but is paying him support because she made more money! Now she feels as if the system is punishing her when it was her AH who was doing all the drinking and getting into legal trouble. Also, as for step-parents I know that I can't just make blanket statements. I'm sure there are some really great step-parents out there but working in psych I often hear first hand accounts from adults with serious mental health problems after growing up with sexual, physical or emotional abuse at the hands (usually) mom's boyfriends or step-fathers. If there were any physical abuse in my relationship I absolutely would not stay. This is how I came to make the decision to stay at least for now. If dynamics change at home I guess my decision is always up for change as well.

essgee1952 · Veteran Member

Well put,MP, I couldn't have said it better. The older I get, the less judgemental I become. There's a saying -- "be kind, everyone is carrying a heavy burden" -- and it's so true. Even without addiction in the family, there are all sorts of disfunction that affect marriages, yet people keep soldiering on.

ythannah · Senior Member

The simple answer is that I stay because I love him and, when he's sober, my ABF is the closest thing to the "perfect" partner (for me) that I've ever known.

There is a strong element of hope there too... the hope that sobriety will eventually come out on top. He does work on it, and has currently been sober since Sept 13. He has been in recovery for 10 years.

In a practical sense, we don't live together -- so I can escape to the tranquility of my own home (and hang out here, lol) when he relapses.

If I want to dig a little deeper, I'm ACoA so there are undertones of normalcy for me in having a close relationship with an A.

And there is a little bit of fear, too. Not so much fear of being alone as a sort of cynicism about the available pool of men for me as a middle-aged woman, and kind of a belief that they're all going to come with "baggage" at this stage of life.... maybe a touch of "better the devil you know than the devil you don't know" for me?

Priscilla83 · Senior Member

Hollie, I have stayed and left and been with my addicted husband thru addictiona dn sobriety. To me it's like living with Jekyll and Hyde.
But I love Jekyll soooooooooooooooo much. He's an amazing husband and father. And because, honestly, I have hope in God he'll win this battle against alcohol and drugs.
The simplest answer is I stay cause I love him. Not many people understand, and I don't care.

carolinagirl · ~*Service Worker*~

I left with 3 kids and have made it on my own for 4 years and now here he is on my couch. Why is he still here? Because I am in a desperate situation with my oldest daughter and I need his help at the moment...

I can say I stayed long past the realm of good judgment too. I think none of us wants to give up hope and much like the boiling frog the heat gets turned up slowly so you become brainwashed and your level of what you accept as "ok" or "normal" gets more and more extreme.

I think every person's situation is different and you have to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Not YOU in their shoes but THEM in their shoes, the way they think and feel and how they were raised, etc. You have your experience and they have theirs and I guarantee they are not the same. I'm going to college to work on my master's degree. I'm lucky that I am highly resillient, intelligent, I can talk my way into a good job, I work hard at trying to improve my situation. There was a time when that was not me. I know what it is to be so depressed you can't get out of bed and you feel guilty because you don't know why you're crying and you don't want to do anything.

I know what it is to be dirt poor and on welfare, I know what it is to struggle through that and get a bachelor's degree, fighting the system the whole way. I know what it is to be homeless, hit, kicked, verbally abused non stop. I know what it is to have an out of control teenage daughter that I can't do anything with, I know what it is to suddenly go from making minimum wage to having a career with benefits and be able to get loans and have nice things. I know what it is to keep fighting everything within me that says I can't do this. This is MY experience...

I have managed for 4 years. I have to say the most important thing is to have that faith that you CAN make it and things WILL get better. It takes different people different amounts of time to get to that place to take the leap. Not everyone wants the same thing in their life. We all make tradeoffs and it just depends on where we are right now as to what we are willing to trade for what. You have to have faith that things will fall into place and they inevitably do. You have to be willing to face yourself, be alone with yourself, be ready to make serious serious changes in your life, your ingrained behaviors, the way you think about things and see the world. None of these are easy things. It is a hard hard choice and when there are kids involved it's not always in their best interest.

jasobel · Veteran Member

Thank you MP for your fabulous reply to all of these statement and questions. I too was offended by this post - but it mimics the thoughts of my friends and family. I have stayed with my alcoholic (well stood beside him becaue he has been coming and going lately) because it was a conscious choice that I struggled over. Will I support him or judge him? Will I stand by him or walk away from him? I could write a book on this subject - but you did great. Thank you, thank you, thank you - to all of us who stay and support the alcoholic in our life because most of my friends and family don't get it either

Jill

Andrea12 · ~*Service Worker*~

I was married for 20 yrs to an alcoholic after 18 yrs it got too much to bare..so I threw him out. I tried my best to make a life for me and my two children...met someone else and thought I was moving forward.

This guy was a user and I didn't even see that he was an addict pulling me into his web of deception.

I loved my husband very much but was sick and tired of all the shat that goes along with living with addiction....me and my kids were tired of hem selling everything we owned my husband that is.

So let me explain why we stay....we stay because we hope....we hope for the day when our a's will get sober and we can be with the person we loved once again....we stay because we love this person and remember all of the good things about them....we stay because trust me the grass is not greener on the other side...at least it wasn't for me....

I let my husband come back home some time later but it was too late he was too sick and after being home for about 2 weeks he died...due to the disease of alcoholism.....so now I can't stay and trust me when I tell you I wish I could stay...even with all the shat over the yrs my husband caused I would have him here right now if I could......

When you are raising a family....it has nothing to do with if you deserve better....probably most of us do...however sometimes it is just easier to just stay....and for me I hoped...hoped for sobriety and always remember love has nothing to do with addiction.......

Take what you need and leave the rest this is just my opinion.

With Love,
Andrea

RLC · ~*Service Worker*~

(((Hollie)))

For me, after years living in the disease, attending Al-Anon meetings twice each week, all the while trying to work the program as best I could, I finally got sick and tired of being sick and tired of this disease. I was tired of the 100% control the disease had on my AW. I was tired of living in the clutter, I was tired of all the things the disease had taken away from me. I was selfish, and I was also wrong. I had allowed the disease to slowly over a period of years make me fall out of love with my AW. I went to several "pity parties" always by myself. As I said, I was wrong, but life is short and I had tried all I wanted to try. In Jan. 2009 I told only one person how I felt and what my plans were, that was my HP. I started a plan B. I felt my plan would take about 6 months to put into effect. There was no question in my mind---------------- I was done. Knowing I had made that decision gave me a freedom. I knew I would no longer be living in this disease that I hate with a passion. Just dreaming about the other side, that side I had not lived in in years brought a smile to my face.

What I haven't told you is this. When I made my decision and had my talk with my HP, I also asked him to either "make her better or make her worse", because I was sick and tired of the middle. That was honestly how I felt. I did not think she would get better. I knew the only way for her to get better would be for her to hit bottom. I honestly hoped HP would make it happen. I continued to work on my plan B. I also continued to pray the same prayer, "make her better or make her worse", two or three times each day.

On April 15th this year guess what? My AW quit drinking, cold turkey. At the time she was up to 15 or 18 beers each day. She did not tell me her plans before she stopped, and she did not discuss with me it later. She just stopped. She knew I knew without a word being said. I realized at the time she would have to go somewhere to detox. I was wrong again. I had forgot who was in control, and who had been the force behind her decision-----------HP of course.

My AW has been sober since that day 8 months ago. She is the lady I married 17 years ago. Our life has changed. I love her more than I ever have. I am so very proud of her. I now look forward to coming home each day to my wife instead of the disease. She is working her program, and I am working mine. Turning her over to my HP 100% and not taking her back one single time was the best thing I ever did. Our lives changed.

So, why do some men stay? For me even though I had a plan and made a firm decision to end our marriage, HP had another plan that was much better than mine. Some things we can't explain or understand, we just have to accept. I will always be grateful that after all those years I finally got out of my HP's way. Thank you HP.

HUGS,
RLC

-- Edited by RLC on Wednesday 16th of December 2009 01:34:25 PM

phoenix · Newbie

Wow. I never expected a thread like this one to come along. Why have I stayed?
The most simple answer is that.... I love him. When he is sober, he is the one person on earth that I most enjoy chatting with. He is an amazing father and has never told me the word NO in our 17 yrs of marriage.
Have I been emotionally hurt and angered by his actions? Of course I have. Has he ever emabarrased me? Yes. Has his A abuse hurt my kids? Emotionally, yes. But as my kids often tell me, Mom he is a great Dad, we love him and we are afraid what might happen to him if we werent here for him. Sad, but true.
If he didn't have us in his life, I am not quite sure if he would live. Is that my business? I know that is questionable, but right now, I think it is. We also have hope that I will someday have my husband back like he once was so long ago. I pray to my HP that I can see his will for me daily.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

When I looked at my reactions; verbal, mental, emotional and behavioral to the
disease against my alcoholic...surprise!! I didn't find any of it loving. When I
looked at her responses to me as a woman addicted and compulsed to drink in
spite of the terrible consequences to her and all around her I didn't find love in
any of it either. "Love cannot exist without some dimension of justice" is what
I learned in Al-Anon and justice does not exist in alcoholism. The alcoholic
receives more grace, support and consideration while investing less of the same
and so where is love?    I know fear existed. I feared her and what she did and
the consequences of those things.   I know sick commitment because I made a
commitment without condition; had I known the conditions including alcoholism
would I have made another commitment? I know about my ego and self center
-edness and my drive to control and manipulate for whatever reason and belief
including I can make her stop or she will stop because she loves me or fears me
or respects me or just because it would be easier.   I didn't know about the
alcoholics compulsion that was greater beyond their compulsion to be loved and
loving with others.

I stayed because I was delusional. I believed in spite of the facts. It was
easier all the way around I believed if I stayed an not left. I was afraid of
leaving at first because I had no alternative solution or alternative proof
against what it was that I was already use to...participating with insanity in a
way that I had become accustomed to.   I was afraid until fear was not enough
to keep me there and then she became afraid because a part of her support
system (that part that being a grateful member of the Al-Anon Family Groups
is all about) was gone. I commited to the alcoholic and the alcoholic was
committed mind, body, spirit and emotions to drinking not me.

My HP became a more valuable commitment that my LP (lower power) keeping
alcoholism alive.

Good thread and very useful. (((((hugs))))) smile

Christy · ~*Service Worker*~

RE: Stepdads

I have to say.....
My A was the Stepdad to my two oldest girls. He was the one that supported them, raised them and was asked to walk down the aisle.
My own stepdad is the only Dad I know. The only Dad I want to know.
Not all are great, but there are some...like my Dad, who married my Mom when I was 2 yrs old, my A married in to our family when my girls were 10 & 12... and David. Knowing the man David is, I need not guess that he was a wonderful stepfather. All these stepdads are worth much more to their children then words can express..

Hawk120025 · Veteran Member

Thank you. Your input has been fantastic and truly appreciated! You opened up your hearts & souls to me and gave me insight into a difficult subject.

To those who felt I was being judgmental, my post was not intended to be that way. Thus my last sentence - just curious and trying to understand.

I wanted insight so I didn't become judgmental.

maresie · ~*Service Worker*~

I think leaving for lots of us is an incredible undertaking. I left 2 years ago. The repercussions are enormous. I will probably be struggling for years. Staying seemed to be easier at times. I also had pets lots of them.

I can absolutely understand why so many people stay there are so many "hooks".

I hope you will find a way to feel compassionate and understanding towards them.

Maresie.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

WOW!! this is so compelling and OH so needed----I will answer each ?? as to my experience, strength and hope

I've been posting now for about 5 months and one thing has really stood out to me - women really struggle with leaving the relationship. Why?
For me it was fear--I was totally scared I would not make it without him--After a while, it got so bad that the fear of "going it alone" was over shadowed by his abuse, threats, not working, I could go on and on

Why do you feel you aren't worthy of something better?
For me it was a "trained" mindset--My mother married an abuser, she turned into an alcoholic to cope with her horrible choice of husband, exposed us kids to violence and mental and emotional abuse as a result--I was put down, never good enough, always compared to my "better" cousins so I never felt worthy of anything better--I could never please my mother and my father?? Forget it!! All of his kids in his eyes were "failures"--We never measured up, so I married what I knew---Alcoholism and dangerous behavior--I guess I secretly hated me because I was such a "failure" and a "disappointment" to them---

Why do continue to put up with the A behavior?

For me, I did not put up with it--I have walked out on so many relationships because I guess there was a mechanism within me that "knew" I deserved better, but I was too emotionally and mentally compromised from my crazy upbringing that I did not know how to assert my worthiness and deserving a better life---Now, after 7 years, going on 8 in alanon and CODA , there is no way I would get involved with an active alcoholic--In truth, I am afraid of people who abuse any substance--I run!! I don't ever want to go back to that horrible merry go round---I have an alcoholic brother with whom I am dear friends---I put a limit on how long and what time we talk--Last night he called my cell at 11pm his time--I knew that is deep into his drinking time---I hit the "ignore" button on my cell and let it go to voice---I love him, but will not allow his disease to permeate my peace and serenity--Sober?? He can call me any ole time---Drunk?? I let it go to VM--

What are you afraid of that keeps you in such horrible relationships?

For me it was the fear of the unknown--"what is going to happen if I go?? Will my life be even worse??"----I was "programmed" to be in sick relationships because I grew up in it---Now I am "de-programming" me to shun the sicko relationships and I notice lately I am attracting healthy people to me--The losers don't come around--Maybe its my demeanor and my feeling better within shining without--I don't know, but if I see red flags--Things I cannot accept (substance abuse, abuse of any kind, cheating, lying, actions not matching words) I RUN!!!!

Why do you "stay for the kids" when they're being exposed to such deplorable behavior? Get someone in their lives who is a better example.
This was my mother's classic excuse "oh I stayed with him because of the kids"---The damage she did to herself and to us was imeasurable--I just implode when I think of the "stay for the kids" in my case because "staying" did horrendous damage to us poor choiceless children--I had a girlfriend who "staid for the kids" and they just progressively became more and more sick and "CODA" and it wasn't my business to say anything, it was her life and her choice, but I watched those poor children just "go down hill" mentally and emotionally as they watched the frightening drama and the instability and the drama/unpredictability of their lives--They had nothing that was "stable" or "sure" in their lives---No structure---Codependents in the making

Isn't being lonely but at peace so much better than in the chaos that ensues from an A relationship?
For me??? and I emphasize the "me"---YES YES YES--I am alone now and yes, I am at peace with me as I recover and learn to look within and trust me more, yes, I am at peace--I am a professional woman, I am an accountant and I teach--Good professions as I do private tutoring--I make good money--Good enough to make it on my own--Now that I have some self confidence, ha ha (couldn't say that a few years ago) - but for me?? YES, I would rather be alone and even struggle than have the chaos and the inability to trust my partner---Its sad--They are addicted--I am sure my EXAH did not go to bed as a young man and ask his God to make him a drunk---He drank and partied and ended up addicted and a slave to his addiction---I still love and pray for him, but would not want to go back to that oh so unstable life---Life is hard enough without my "purchasing" more hardship getting involved in an active drinker

It just breaks my heart that so many women think so little of themselves that they hang on to any little thread of relationship no matter how bad the big picture is.
Maybe it is fear and I never judge another anymore because I cannot see their world without actually living in it---What is hell for me may not be so bad for another---As I grow in recovery, my "Pickyness" increases---It just , to me, is not worth it--Having a man who gives me more grief than joy---Yes, the normal ups and downs are to be expected, but an active A or druggy??? NO thank you!! It took me a few years of recovery to come to this place in my life where I actually believe I deserve all the happiness and good that life can offer me--I am sober-I am non drug user---I work my program and try my best to do what is right and I take my inventory and I am open to and am working on being a better and healthier person---Why not seek that in a partner??

I still cry - five months later - over the breakup with the love of my life. However, I have yet to hear one person tell me I did the wrong thing. And although I still have moments of sadness, I would much rather have that than being lied to, cheated on, stolen from, blamed for, manipulated, worried, etc.
Oh I still feel the loss over my Ex--"C" was a good man inside--A very good man--I just got tired of coming in 2nd to his mistress who was named Jack Daniels or Coors Light---Everyone supported me in my decision to leave as well--They were sad, but they agreed that it was the right decision for me----And yes, definitely---Being alone and feeling sad sometimes beats being lied to, (he didn't cheat) stolen from, blamed for, yes, and oh yea, manipulated and the worry when he drove drunk, talking and yelling at the television??? and his yelling at the poor dogs?? Oh yes, the broken promises, the not being able to depend on him and having to live life on my own and
also, to me, alanon was to teach ME how to live--NOT cope or put up with a bad relationship---I came to alanon and codependents anonymous to help me and to change me and to learn how to live LIFE--A by product of that wonderful alanon training has been taking good care of me--Setting and standing on proper boundaries---Respecting other's boundaries and just, for the first time, really learning how to live---
Wonderful share--Wonderful replies--This has been a real eye opener----I hope my $00.02 was helpful---Please use what you can and discard the rest

Just curious & trying to understand.
Hollie

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

There are probably way too many reasons and scenerios to ever share!

In the beginning for me, I very much consider marriage a gift from HP. Al Anon taught me how to live with him and be ok and really most times happy. If he got too off the wall, I just said well I know who is talkin now, and would just go read or whatever.

The smell of alcohol did not bother me anymore, I put everything into my name, had a key and stuff hidden in case.

Learned how to live with him and the disease. When I really believed it was a disease things changed for me.

I loved him, hated the disease. The bad thing was, the brain surgery changed him, out of nowhere he became horribly abusive. I would have him leave, then he would come back, but each come back was shorter. I would not allow him to stay when he got physical or close to it.

The last time he could not even hold it together for one day. He went after a dog and that was it. I gently told him not to take out his stuff on the dog and pulled the back of his sweatshirt,not aggressively. Next thing I know I am flat on my face on the floor.
He was a very good wrestler....disabled my shoulders. That was it.

Now he is on meds and does not do that anymore, no more migraines etc. He is in a medical unit in the prison and gets great care.

Anyway I have seen many situations on here. What I have seen lots is people take them back or go back a few times, like an A with rehab. Until they are ready to leave the addiction of their A, they don't leave them.

When they are ready it is forever. Sorta like a graduation. That is what makes me always praise, and support them when ever they are in the process, no matter what!

A's disease beats most of us down. It takes a lot to go out on your own, if you have kids even harder, pets, our homes, our gardens, etc. We always hear the disease makes everyone around it sick.So to ask what makes them stay, I would say most the time we are sick. Takes awhile to get strong enough to figure it all out.

There are more animal shelters than women/children shelters!

Good question. People outside Al Anon ask it allll the time. One thing I know for sure, I know most anything I say or share, someone here will understand or know the answer.

love,debilyn

maire rua · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm also offended by this post despite the explanation of curiosity. Perhaps you could get a book from the library or some other location that might enlighten you. I personally don't want to have to.

blender_girl · Senior Member

I also was not offended by this post.

I think these are valid questions for anyone trying to gain perspective on their own situation. As demonstrated by the variety of responses, everyone's answer is a bit different and certainly unique to their experience.

For me, I stayed a long time out of fear and oddly enough hope. Fear that he'd take off with the kids as he had threatened to if I didn't change my attitude/behavior/eye color, whatever. Hope that one day I would be able to please him and we'd be able to get along like "normal" people.

Finally, the pain of living with it on a daily basis overcame the pain of living in fear and what I now see as denial, not hope at all. And I had to take a stand for not only myself, but for my kids as well. I started the journey of recovery 8 1/2 years ago and made progress in fits and starts until last fall when I found this group and finally got committed to the lifestyle change that defines my recovery.

Earlier this year, I made the decision to leave. It took me 6 months to finally act upon it.

Is it pretty? No. It was one of the most gut wrenching things I have ever had to do. And I thought I was pretty well prepared for it too. I was wrong.

Will it ever be 100% ideal? Certainly not. That's just life.

Will it be better for me and my kids? Absolutely - as long as I continue to work my program and live my life with the dignity and grace that I deserve as a human being. Things will be bumpy for a while, of this I am sure. But I know now that I can handle it, especially if I lean on my program heavily enough. The "better person" I can expose them to instead of deplorable A behavior is ME. And that would have been true had I decided to stay as well.

No one gets to the decision that is right for them on anyone else's timeline other than their HP's. Some never get there, sadly enough.

Thank you so much for this thread. Very thought provoking and it certainly elicited a lot of wisdom and ESH.

yours in recovery,

bg

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I also am not offended and I think this is an excellent question. I am still asking myself a version of it. The thing is, we complain about how hard it is to be with an active alcoholic or addict -- and we're right -- so why don't we leave? It does seem contradictory. For me the answer was also that combination of fear and hope. Plus I lost sight of what a healthy relationship looked like, and a lot of the time I seriously considered his accusations that the problem was with me. I wanted to get clear about what was going on and whose responsibility it was before I made an irrevocable decision. My own fear and hope, along with his reactions, also kept me from getting a clear perspective.

I'm still wondering about these questions. I recognize very clearly that the relationship was very unhealthy for me, and that I was miserable much of the time. So why is my attachment to it so strong? Why is it so hard to let go of it emotionally, even when I know intellectually that the relationship was so bad? Why did I have to pry myself away from it with a crowbar? Why so I still spend so much time thinking about it? Those are big contradictions I still haven't figured out.

Hawk120025 · Veteran Member

Mattie,

thank you for your "questions" in your post, for I still wonder the same thing. Emotionally I question my decision to leave almost every day - I miss him so much. However, like you, I know logically it was the right thing to do.

If/when you figure it out let me know. I'll be sure to do the same.

Hollie

White Rabbit · ~*Service Worker*~

I am now divorced from my first alcoholic husband, but I stayed for 8 years. That was 5 years longer than I really wanted to stay, but why did I stay for 5 more years? Because I was honestly scared to death he wouldn't be able to function without me. Who would call the attorneys when he got a ticket or citation for being a drunken fool in public? Who would pay the bills while he was on a binge? Who would offer him emotional support when he was depressed?

I stayed because I was very sick. When I got in a better place, I decided that the best decision for me was to leave. But leaving isn't the best decision for everyone.

For me, being alone didn't even factor in. I felt lonely and alone in the marriage - being physically alone wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

I'm married to a wonderful man now that is in recovery. He had a relapse during our relationship. I didn't leave. I believe that he is a person with a disease that should be treated with compassion and kindness. That doesn't mean I put up with abuse or anything else - it just means that I was able to love him the way he was. I wouldn't have left him if he'd gotten cancer. The difference in my husband now and my ex husband is that my ex husband was an abusive jerk with or without alcohol.

rosielee · Senior Member

i agree and applaud your outspoken views!
i was a cleaner to a woman who lived with an alcohlic and i thought she enabled his alcoholism, i was brought up my an alcoholic so nothing slips by me- i think its when the partner slips into denial themsleves and starts thinking of excuses for them, they make i easy for the drinker- like when he says, "im off into town becaues i need to go to the bank to get some money" she knows full well hes going straight to the pub- (maybe he cant openly drink infront of her int he day time as that would be revealing he was addicted- it would be too obvious ad coulnt hide his alcoholism behind social drinking etc etc) so she goes along with the ruse- knowing full well hes going into town because he needs a drink, so she says, "oh really? ok then you go off and get some money" and in this way she is going along with the addiction- feel what she should be saying to him is "lets cut the crap- you are going for a drink because you need one- because you need it to function because yo are addicted, so lets refer to this sickness to what it is- alcoholism"
i dont know why women cling onto relationships when they are beyond repairing too, there comes a point that you are simply better off on your own if your man is no good.
personally i wouldnt be sitting every evening with a drunk out of choice- not after being brought up by one- maybe this also has something to do with it- a naivity and walking into the unkown- if you knew you were walking into the direction of a storm youd walk the other way wouldnt you , and when they have found themselves in a storm i dont think they know what to do- its like your stuck in it now- just aswell make the best of it and sick it out until it dies down- you made the right decision and hope you steer your way to sunnier climates

Dyinginside · Veteran Member

This is a GREAT thread! I am also not offended by these questions. These are the same sorts of things we talk about in my Al Anon meetings and in therapy.

I've been with my ABF for 4 yrs. He's been sober and in AA for 19 months. He's agreed and participated in couples therapy. I do not live with him nor do I have kids with him.
I've lived alone for 10 yrs, make my own good money. Have a fantastic job and lots of happy and healthy friends and family.

But yet, my BF is a serious dry drunk who is in major denial about his "disease" He thinks because he stopped drinking that he's fine.
Well he's not fine. Mentally, he plays mind games and I do believe he may have cheated on me.
He says he fooled around when we had a fight and he was drunk. He blames me for EVERYTHING and is also rude, unaffectionate and can be verbally abusive.

So why do I stay? Fear and hope. I fear being alone. I went through 2 serious break ups with 2 very long term relationships and the heartache was too much to deal with.
I also hoped since he stopped drinking, goes to AA, he will see how much of a jerk he is.

But if I have to be honest with myself. I do want out. I want out because I stopped loving him. He's so dead inside and I am so alive. I have a great sense of humor, love to talk, do, be and really am alive inside.
He deadens me!
Like RLC says above, I just can't love him like this.

I'm only 43, very attractive and have so much going for me. I'm told often that it makes no sense why I stay with this person.
Someone from my meeting felt bad to tell me this, but she just had to ask "Why are you with someone you're not married to,have no kids with, do not live with and you have so much going for you"
I felt stupid. I didn't have an answer!

It makes no sense to me and the only conclusion I have is again, fear. Fear of the unknown, of starting over or not being around when he has a break through. He has a lot going for him as well as all his bad points.

I try to understand that his sh&tty actions are caused from a diseased mind, but how long to I wait?

I hope this thread keeps going. This is really giving me some clarity.

Ginger · Newbie

I have been married 20 years and the problem started 6 years ago. I have stayed for a variety of reasons; shock, the kids, hope etc. My kids have just left and my AH fell of the wagon (for the weekend) 8 weeks ago, after 1 year of sobriety. Now I am faced with a new problem. I am 50 next month with several major health issues and only 5 years of retirement. It is highly unlikely that I will be able to work for another 15 years which means not enough to retire on, no home and no health care if I leave him. My other choice is to go back to my own country, but then I will have to leave my kids. So my spririt says go and my head says stay.

Hawk120025 · Veteran Member

Dying Inside ~

You and I are very similar - age, independence, etc. And I understand exactly what you're saying and how you feel.

Fear of the unknown is a very powerful thing. But if I can say one thing ~ Please don't let him hold you back. You have a dynamic personality and will be back on track with new friends in no time.

No more dying inside, ok. It sounds like it's time for you to lead the fabulous you were always meant to.

Hollie

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

It's one thing if you're unclear on the situation or on whether you want to stay. What's baffling to me is when I knew the relationship was irreparably broken and yet I couldn't make myself leave. If some fairy godmother had come along and said, "I can wave this wand and make you free of him with no hard feelings, no pain -- shall I do it?", I would have said yes. If she had said, "I can wave this wand and make you free of him with no hard feelings, and you can be with a man who will be good for you and has no addictions -- shall I do it?", I would have said double yes in an instant. But I knew that to get to that place where I was free of the relationship with no pain, regret, remorse, or anguish, and maybe even with someone new would take years.

After I'd been with my ex for about two years, I began to suspect that something bad was up with his drinking. After about four years, I knew beyond a doubt that he was an alcoholic and sinking fast. It still took me four more years to split up with him. Now, part of that time he was in rehab, relapsing, in AA, etc., so part of that time I had some hope. But most of the time I could see that he had never really accepted that he had a problem. So I waited six years because I didn't want to undergo the year or two of pain and regrets I'd have if I left. Then I thought, "If I'd left when I should have, I'd be feeling fine by now! I'd be completely through that bad period already!" It was the fear of going through that period of pain and doubt and loneliness that kept me stuck. I sure wish I'd gotten through it sooner!

The other thing is that I always had a kind of magical wish that he'd change. He'd see the light and give up all his addictions, and see how much he'd hurt me and do anything to make it up to me. At first I thought this was a realistic hope. Later I kind of knew it wasn't realistic, but I just kept hanging on to that hope anyway. I had invested so much that it just had to all come true, or else ... I had wasted years of my life. Hard to face up to that, but liberating.

Dyinginside · Veteran Member

Hawk120025 wrote:

Dying Inside ~

You and I are very similar - age, independence, etc. And I understand exactly what you're saying and how you feel.

Fear of the unknown is a very powerful thing. But if I can say one thing ~ Please don't let him hold you back. You have a dynamic personality and will be back on track with new friends in no time.

No more dying inside, ok. It sounds like it's time for you to lead the fabulous you were always meant to.

Hollie

Thank you for this Hollie.
For the past few weeks, I see to be coming alive a little more. I'm slowly starting to detach from him, his life and his choices and have been doing my own thing.

This period of my life is going to be the most pwerful to date and I think the strength I gain from this will sustain me.

thank you again

Dyinginside · Veteran Member

Mattie wrote:

It's one thing if you're unclear on the situation or on whether you want to stay. What's baffling to me is when I knew the relationship was irreparably broken and yet I couldn't make myself leave. If some fairy godmother had come along and said, "I can wave this wand and make you free of him with no hard feelings, no pain -- shall I do it?", I would have said yes. If she had said, "I can wave this wand and make you free of him with no hard feelings, and you can be with a man who will be good for you and has no addictions -- shall I do it?", I would have said double yes in an instant. But I knew that to get to that place where I was free of the relationship with no pain, regret, remorse, or anguish, and maybe even with someone new would take years.

After I'd been with my ex for about two years, I began to suspect that something bad was up with his drinking. After about four years, I knew beyond a doubt that he was an alcoholic and sinking fast. It still took me four more years to split up with him. Now, part of that time he was in rehab, relapsing, in AA, etc., so part of that time I had some hope. But most of the time I could see that he had never really accepted that he had a problem. So I waited six years because I didn't want to undergo the year or two of pain and regrets I'd have if I left. Then I thought, "If I'd left when I should have, I'd be feeling fine by now! I'd be completely through that bad period already!" It was the fear of going through that period of pain and doubt and loneliness that kept me stuck. I sure wish I'd gotten through it sooner!

The other thing is that I always had a kind of magical wish that he'd change. He'd see the light and give up all his addictions, and see how much he'd hurt me and do anything to make it up to me. At first I thought this was a realistic hope. Later I kind of knew it wasn't realistic, but I just kept hanging on to that hope anyway. I had invested so much that it just had to all come true, or else ... I had wasted years of my life. Hard to face up to that, but liberating.

This really hits home with me.
When I left my BF 2 yrs ago, I was in so much pain. Two months later, we got back together and I always think the same thing "had I stuck it out, I would have been A OK by now"

I do have this hope he will see his ways. The reason I have hope is, he seems to be like a sponge.
His parents are, for lack of a better term, idiots and have ZERO communication skills. They are as dead inside as my BF.
When my BF listens or talks to the therapist or people in a group we attend together, he seems to apply all he's heard.
The thing is, he just won't listen to me.

We stopped couples therapy and I am now going alone. My choice. I need to get well for me and not for us anymore.
He's a big boy, he can find his own way

-- Edited by Dyinginside on Sunday 20th of December 2009 11:26:07 AM

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Hawk120025 wrote:

Dying Inside ~

You and I are very similar - age, independence, etc. And I understand exactly what you're saying and how you feel.

Fear of the unknown is a very powerful thing. But if I can say one thing ~ Please don't let him hold you back. You have a dynamic personality and will be back on track with new friends in no time.

No more dying inside, ok. It sounds like it's time for you to lead the fabulous you were always meant to.

Hollie

Oh Hollie, you said my exact words!!!! I am divorced---I do not even date men who drink more then very sparingly and I mean it!! I am so turned off by addicts and the suffering they caused me--I have my own shortcomings to deal with and I can relate to the fear of the unknown---It kept me in a marriage where I always came in 2nd to his 80 proof---I am still attractive and fun to be with and educated---Why settle for less?? I shall not!!!

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Dyinginside wrote:
They are as dead inside as my BF.
When my BF listens or talks to the therapist or people in a group we attend together, he seems to apply all he's heard.
The thing is, he just won't listen to me.

We stopped couples therapy and I am now going alone. My choice. I need to get well for me and not for us anymore.
He's a big boy, he can find his own way

Dear Dying

NOW your talking!!! You take care of you and let him find his own way---Yes!! He is responsible for his own life--His own reality as you are yours---I got well for me and I had a hard road and never want to go through all that again, but now that I have, I look back and say thanks to my HP each day for keeping me in the trenches working on me--Life is better---I have healthier people in my life---One day at a time I work to take loving care of me and plant good seed for my life---You can do it!! I know you can

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"