The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
A couple people seemed to be against needing another. I am not talking being obsessed, depending on anyone else for anything. I have been independant all my life.
I was a widow 18 years raising my kids and everyone elses, working full time and going to school full time.
I don't need in an unhealthy way. Of course we need each other! This is MY esh. We are made to need a partner or need friends. We were never meant to be alone.
It does not make us weaker to need someone.
When you get to be over fifty you will realize how much we do need others.
No one can take the place of your mate. We are born to want to be loved by another.
People who are married even live longer! If we have to have someone, anyone that is not healthy.
But to need the one we love, is very normal. Our kids need us, my grama needed me, my mother needed me. When my husband was dieing he needed me.
Need is not a bad word. We come here becuz we need support, we need each other.
And thankfully we give to each other.
This just touched a nerve in me tonight. Nothing personal at all.
To be honest.. If I am working my Alanon program, I certainly couldn't "need" the love of someone else's husband, or by any stretch of imagination consider it healthy for me because I've satisfied that need. It's a very different need then that of family or Alanon support. IMO, it does not allow him to work his program honestly with his wife, even if she is a blazing alcoholic.
If the situation were reversed, any one of us here would have a fit if we found our spouses or BF's were having a internet relationship and they were professing their love to eachother.
Take what you like and leave the rest....
-- Edited by Christy on Sunday 11th of October 2009 03:46:25 AM
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
If the situation were reversed, any one of us here would have a fit if we found our spouses or BF's were having a internet relationship and they were professing their love to eachother.
This is really a good way to look at things, how would we feel if the behavior we are engaging in was done to us?
I know looking back on my life, when I was in a situation where I was indulging in conduct, due to human imperfection, that pricked my conscience a bit, I would look to friends for support. I would explain the situation in full to them, HOPING they would agree with my rationalizations. When one or two didn't agree, I would explain again, differently and more fully, once again, NEEDING them to agree with me.
In hindsight, I realize that I really knew it was not healthy for me in my heart, but I was rationalizing it and making it OK since I needed something at the time, and I didn't want to do without it. If I could just get my friends to rationalize with me, then I would feel a lot better about it.
But, I was cursed (really blessed ) with a few true friends at these times who did NOT go along with my rationalizations, and spoke truth to me that it was NOT a good idea, no matter how much explaining I did and for how long, or from which angle. I remember being upset at the time, and disappointed, but later I would treasure these friends for having saved me from myself, and my desperate rationalizations.
I learned that often, repeatedly explaining myself, hoping to find a friend to agree with me and go along with my rationalizations for a certain questionable conduct, usually meant that I really knew in my heart it was not a good thing.
If I am so certain it is Ok, why do I need to find someone to agree with me and support me? I don't need support for good stuff I do, or an audience, I just do it. But, when I am unsure of the merit of something, that is usually when I enlist the opinion of others, of course desperately hoping they agree with me.
And, when something I am doing involves someone else, I have to really think about the impact on them. I am not being a good friend if I somehow exploit their weaknesses for my own personal gain, even if unintentionally.
I know that when my husband tried to rationalize his internet GF with me by saying he never touched her, or met her, it fell flat with me and didn't wash. No matter how he sliced it, I knew it was wrong. He seemed to justify it to himself though, but that didn't make it OK by any means. At the time, he was very angry with me for trying to arrange an intervention for him (a HUGE mistake I regret to this day), and who only knows what he told her about me. I just know it wasn't good, or true. To hear him tell it, I am "his enemy" and "out to destroy him", and all kinds of other nonsense. In other words, an unfair portrayal. Who only knows what a person's intimate relationship is really like? The cliche about a man looking for love elsewhere, since his wife "doesn't understand him" didn't fall out of the sky, it is because that is human nature and happens a lot. Sadly, it usually isn't true, but the other woman in his life usually does not find that out for a very long time, and usually the hard way.
Rationalizing is a human imperfection we are all guilty of from time to time. Just remember, that the most heinous of evil deeds have been done by people who convinced themselves that what they were doing was OK partly by surrounding themselves with people who agree with them. It is definately a slippery slope of morality when we start down that path.
It is hard to always take the high road, especially when the other person in the relationship is not, but I cannot worry about the other person, I can only worry about ME and make sure that I adhere to my own code of ethics, no matter how difficult it is at times.
Just my ESH, take what you like and leave the rest.
I for one am not against needing someone. There is a difference between needing your grandmother and needing someone who is not available to us. Christy is right. I would have been furious if Tim had been "dating" or having a relationship like that. He wouldn't be honest with himself and certainly not me.
There is also a fine line between needing and obsessing about someone. Obsession is unhealthy for both parties. If that person is not physically as well emotionally unavailable to their spouse, what makes me think that he would be available to me? That's a red flag for me. I for one would not put myself in that position. It would destroy me. I've seen it's damage with a close friend. He's still recovering from it.
My prorgam teaches me strength. If I am truly living the program as opposed to working it, then I know what is healthy for me. This situation would do nothing but damage me. It certainly wouldn't be recovery in action. As always this is just my experience. What you choose to do or not do is entirely up to you.
Live strong, Karilynn
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
It's amazing to me how much love and support is on this board, even with the differing personal experiences....my two cents....everyone wants to love and be loved, that is a natural human emotion, and is to be valued....that said, sometimes it is easier to hold one on a pedestal when there is no direct contact - it is so "perfect" when it is the written word, or long distance calls...one doesn't see the underwear on the floor, the laundry piles, the weird habits a person has. It is much easier to "villianize" the unsuspecting other spouses from a distance (much harder if it is in person I would think).
I feel as though when it is a long distance relationship with someone who is not "truly" available to be in that relationship, then it turns into a safety net - there is none of the scary real life, in person relationship issues that arise. What would happen if a person left their spouse to be together with the perfect internet partner? Real Life would happen - ugly divorces, financial issues, dealing with the emotional leftovers, and really, trust would be a difficult thing - how do you trust a person who has an "emotional" affair - what if things got hard in the new relationship - would there be an emotional affair with another person in the future? That thought would always be in the back of the mind. My mom always said "if he/she will cheat with you, they will cheat on you". Very solid advice.
AA says - don't get into a relationship for the first year or two of recovery - I beleive this is very valid advice - until we are truly on the path of recover from our own insane thinking and codependent ways, we cannot truly give ourselves to another anyway = not in the true sense of "the real me" theory.
Please don't think I am judging, I am not - just throwing out stuff to think about...:)
My husband, like yours passed away. For me that was 26 years ago. He was an alcoholic and I thought I NEEDED him to survive. I have never remarried, have a relationship with another alanon male for over 20 years but I do not NEED him.
I have discovered that the only one I need in my life is HP everyone else is a gift. They may stay a long time or a short time. I need to learn the lessons in each relationship and be grateful for the gifts they give. There are no guarantees in life. WE are born alone and die alone
Christy I really appreciate your input! Made me think about things.
This friend of mine and I have been writing since 2000. I was thinking it was 2002.
We were each others sponsor. Meaning helped each other to remember our skills so we could remain with the ones we both love.
I encouraged him to stay with her when their kids were little. She went to AA and they had some good time. I could not have been happier.
Without our supporting each other, understanding each other things could have went badly for us both.He loves his like I do mine. Two peas in a pod, people evied our marriages.
She is a doll, was a great mom. If she was not so jealous, my AH and I would have met them. But she is very insecure.
It is not a sick relationship. We both love God and would never do anything to hurt him. We remained friends when my AH got so sick and left. I still love my AH very very much and could live with him. But for me, once he cheated with that woman of ill repute (who slept with everone she could, she told me that, she is NOT embarrassed by it!)he has now slept with EVERYONE she did. NO thank you. I want nothing of it. gross.
Does not mean I don't love him. I don't miss him anymore. But now that he is him again....
I found that my healthy relationship with my friend was so important, more so than getting involved with my AH again. There is no inappropriate talk going on here. I respect her.
If she did leave, I would love to go to meet him face to face. My son would come with me as a chaperone. That is how I work. I have encouraged him by reminding him it is a disease she did not choose it. offer skills that worked for me so I could cont. to be married and happy even when he was using. NEVER wanted him to separate from her. when she was leaving the kids alone and a fire started, she drove drunk etc. we had serious talks about what to do. never talked him leaving.
It would just add so much horror to the situation. We are to build up each other, not tear each other down.I wish mine would not have left. I wish he had not had a brain tumor and woke up a monster and threw me on my chest and disabled my shoulders. was way over what I could use al anon skills with. For me need is a simple fact, Adam needed Eve. if we did not need a mate, we would not have children.
for me it depends on the situation. As far as me being married, in HP's eyes I am not. It is only a legal document that allows me to make decisions for A.I didn't cheat, he did.
Anyway I do respect your words big time. Always have. Made me realize I need to cont. to be careful and not step over any boundaries.
I sure agree about this board. I love ALL sides! Makes me happy we can discuss things. We never know what might touch us!
I don't believe I was born alone nor will I die alone. I feel my HP always with me, always.If I didn't I could not face the hard stuff the world throws at us. Thanks you all. debilyn
We all need love that is human nature....however, I forgave my husband for many many things over the yrs one thing I would have not been able to forgive would have been cheating.
Dear friend, you are searching for something to take that loneliness in your heart away...I know the feeling.....
You have your son, you are not alone....you have us...you are not alone....you do not need someone else's baggage you are carrying enough of your own...
I'm not sure why you referred only to my post when others took the time to share their ES&H also. I will respond with saying I spoke as I would to any of my Alanon friends, based on the principals and traditions of the program. I have many, many Alanon brothers and sisters, but the brothers reamin just that, strictly brothers. For me, married=off limits, it would not matter what the situation is, especially considering this man and his wife are still living together. That's just me.
Even if I was single, it would be a boundary to keep the brothers as brothers. Whether the talk is appropriate or not isn't my concern or business.
This is why Alanon suggests we NOT get same sex sponsors. Alanon also suggests we find sponsors with more experience in program then what we have ourselves. You said you are eachother's sponsor. The sponsor we choose is to guide us through the steps and recovery and have a sponsor of their own. Anything else would be like looking for bread in the hardware store.
If the wife is, and has been insecure this long, I can't see where this relationship would be condusive to her healing in any way. It is said that A's drink for any reason that ends in a Y. Saying that you would go to this man should his wife ever leave, tells me that this is not an appropriate sponsor.
In recovery, Christy
__________________
If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
I no longer think in terms of somene may be available. In my program I have become very strong and independent. i would not even want to imagine having someone if they were not available on so many levels. I do indeed need this program but as for a man with a great deal of baggage I would have tremendous limits in thinking about what might be possible.
I have had to watch my fantasies as much as my thoughts. A lot of my fantasies kept me with the ex A and that was incredibly disastorous for me.
Hi Debilyn, the topic here is needing someone, and to me there is a difference between needing/wanting vs. actually acting upon. Has this relationship truly been healthy for you in your recovery?
With care for healthy recoveries for everyone, tea2
-- Edited by tea2 on Sunday 11th of October 2009 04:53:27 PM
I am at the beginning of a divorce. Hub is moving out and the marriae is not leagally over, but it will be.
Divorce goes against my beliefs, but I feel this is the best choice for me and my kids. Living with this disease is not for me.
That said. I know me needing love is sick. I needed to be loved and that is what got me to this situation in the first place.
Your beliefs(by that I mean religious, just so there is no confusion. I am sure you would have understoood me :) but this isn't a pm so just wanted to be safe) and mine do differ, but I do believe that we were meant to have a partner. The two were meant to become one.
That being said, that is what has been missing from my marriage. We were always two and only one in our respective diseases. That is what binded me.
Do I want a healthy relationship with a man who can love me the way I deserve to be loved and treated, YOU BET! :) But right now I know for me that I need to get me healthy and my head on straight. And this is way way down the road for me anyway. SO whew :) don't need to even worry about it.
But I know when I reach the point of venturing out into the seeing what is out there phase, I won't make a good choice if it is a need based choice. My relying on another person to fulfil my needs will not be good for me. The one I need to look at to fulfill my needs is my HP and me.
For me (and only for me will I ever speak) need is not such a good word when it comes to love and another person. I am okay with needing to love me. Totally different story there.
Yours in recovery, Mandy
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"We are not punished for our unforgiveness, we are punished by it" Jim Stovall
I am guessing you will remember me from long ago. I was pleasantly surprised that long ago when I was already long time living alone and I found living alone was quite pleasant and not lonely at all. Do to a circumstance, I will feel lonely but generally I am not lonely, All the experiences and how I responded to them left me not needing anyone. This is kind of an oxymoron though. It is the terrible negatives in my past that drove me to live alone. It would be nice to have a companion for sure. I am not sure that I am ready for a well-centered woman to live with me even. I have done tons of psychotherapy and self-help. Only, I just do not want be verbally abusive to anyone even by accident or by slips.
I do think that I am doing better though. My son out of necessity is living with me now for a moment. I am finding that I have mentally, emotionally, and socially I am quite well.My son has grown much also since he been out here for about six years.
Is it not neat that in the above paragraph there are not any suggestions or advice? There is only my story. Cool, hun?
*hugs* Wow, what an amazing group! One thing I like to remember is that until we love ourselves, and have truly discovered our boundaries, our likes and dislikes (seperate from other people) we can never really be in an open and honest and healthy relationship. When we are dealing with the trauma and chaos of getting out of one relationship, and have this "safe haven" in another person who meets our needs for unconditional love and friendship, it is easy to fall into what may very well be an unhealthy relationship.
Debilyn, you said that this is your sponsor? Can I respectfully suggest you find another sponsor for now - perhaps a female one? I'm not saying give up your friendship with him, but I am saying that perhaps you need a sponsor who is not so "connected" with you in such a personal way - I'm gettng the feeling you are very confused from your posts, and maybe a change might help?
To be honest.. If I am working my Alanon program, I certainly couldn't "need" the love of someone else's husband, or by any stretch of imagination consider it healthy for me because I've satisfied that need.
If the situation were reversed, any one of us here would have a fit if we found our spouses or BF's were having a internet relationship and they were professing their love to eachother.
Take what you like and leave the rest....
-- Edited by Christy on Sunday 11th of October 2009 03:46:25 AM
Dear poster!
I totally agree with what Christy is saying here..If I am really working my program , why in heaven's name am I going to need someone elses husband? I know men who are married to others and are in recovery--I give them esh and leave it at that---detached---impersonal----12th step qualified and no personal interactions-----I agree 100% with Christy---I would have an absolute "cow" if my BF or Husb. was having an internet "affair" with anyone----The relationship would be over for me
Please take what you can use and leave the rest
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
maresie wrote:i would not even want to imagine having someone if they were not available on so many levels. I do indeed need this program but as for a man with a great deal of baggage I would have tremendous limits in thinking about what might be possible.
I have had to watch my fantasies as much as my thoughts. A lot of my fantasies kept me with the ex A and that was incredibly disastorous for me.
Maresie.
Dear Maresie
This post reached out at me - I still hold off and think when I meet someone - I, too, had fantasies that kept me in unhealthy relationships - I just work my program and let my higher power take care of the heavy stuff - I agree! A man with a great deal of baggage would be a "low" candidate for me as I have my own to take care of
Thanks
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
) with a few true friends at these times who did NOT go along with my rationalizations, and spoke truth to me that it was NOT a good idea, no matter how much explaining I did and for how long, or from which angle. I remember being upset at the time, and disappointed, but later I would treasure these friends for having saved me from myself, and my desperate rationalizations.