The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
For some reason the past few days I have been thinking somewhat about the program itself as I continue to work it. And I'm thinking if I could have some confusion as much time off and on as I've spent in it-so could others. I'd love to hear some ESH:)
I realize that AlAnon is a program that doesn't focus on any particular relegion or God etc. We are all free to choose a "God of our understanding". Yet in the AlAnon/AA literature that I have read and read daily.....God is menitoned in different aspects throughout the literature, as is quotes from the Bible amoung other quotes or "Thoughts for the day". I don't have a personal issue with it and try to practice live and let live, but it can be contradictory and confusing to newcomers I think, as it was to me when I was a newcomer.
When I first came here, I was also told, over and over and over again...that "we do not give advice here" but I learned quickly that was not the case. I had all kinds of advice given to me "Get to a meeting" "find a sponsor" "get some alanon literature" "keep coming back" "don't make any big changes for 6 mths" "go to at least ____meetings before you decide if this is what you need, and my least favorite (at the time:)) "focus on YOU!!!!!!".
This IS all advice-in one way or another. We most certainly do give advice here. We do not and should not give advice regarding some things, such as ending a relationship, divorce,marriage, custody, legal , etc.....major life changes.....those things are none of our business. But we do give "program advice" and we give it OFTEN:)
Been doing some thinking and doing so reading, and doing some pondering:) GREAT program no matter how you look at it:) but I would love to hear other members input as always.
Love and peace Shelly
__________________
Put down the magnifying glass and pick up the mirror!
I know what you mean Shelly, but the way I see it is? is? we are not so much being given advice but kind of options, choices, it's really only up to us at the end of the day which road we chose to travell, I was confused as a new comer too, as to what my hp was and if it was a religous programme, it's just taken time for me to understand how it all works really, I'm not so concerned though anymore about worrying about what it is, so much as how well it works for me, I connect with people in Alanon more so than anywhere else, it's spiritual thing for me.
Great Post... Hope to here from some of our Monitors on this one myself... For Something I have been scolded on in the past, and this is a great way to find those answers...
Shelly I prefer to think of the things u mentioned as really , really really strong suggestions hehe ... the God stuff comes from the group Bill W first went to to get sober it was religious based and Dr Bob did not find sobriety until he left that group and AA was founded , he simply could not accept the concept of God that was presented to him . God ( as we understood him ) gives us the freedom to believe the way we choose ) or not . and since AA graciously allowed us to take thier steps , the concept continued . I try not to question what has been working for 65 yrs now and since I am not an analyzer by nature that keeps it simple for me . Your questions are valid perhaps a letter to WSO would clear the God thing up , they do answer all emails and the only dumb question is the one that is not asked .
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."
"Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery."
These are two quotes out of the AA Big Book.
I note two things which are important for me and that I am going to cull down to bare minimum so I don't get toooooooo long winded....lol.
1. This program was started by individuals who were "blazing the trail". They wrote down what worked for them, and they offered it to all of humanity as a solution to the problem of alcoholism (and they didn't even know then, I bet, that this program was gonna work for those of us who lived "sober" with them). They did this not for personal fame or fortune, but to help their fellows who also suffered from the disease of alcoholism. Because they found that the most sure fire way for they themselves to continue to grow along spiritual lines and remain sober was to help others just like them by carrying the message. To keep it, they had to give it away.
2. As to giving advice, like Katy said, "giving advice" is what I do when I start the "You should" statements, ie, "You should kick that alcoholic bum of a husband/wife of yours out on the streets because he/she is using you as a doormat and you will never be able to be happy as long as you are living with them." Now, when I say to someone "You should get yourself a sponsor and work the 12 steps If you want to find some happiness in your life", okay...I confess, I am giving you advice because I said should. And believe me every time I use the word should these days even to myself, I feel it immediately. What the program as I see it suggests I say would be more along the lines of "It was suggested to me when I got into al-anon that I get myself a sponsor and start working the 12 steps and I would be a happier person. And so I did that, and I am, I suggest to you that you consider doing the same.
Am I giving advice in the second statement. I don't see it that way. I am offering to you the path which I took that helped me. You are absolutely free to choose yes or no, but by not saying "You Should" I don't make it a shaming statement.
The program forces no one to do anything. It only reveals itself to us through the literature and through the people who are living it. We the sufferer get to decide if we are willing to do what it takes to get better. And oh yeah, there are other ways available to get well too. And it doesn't say they don't work. I just says we know if you can dedicate yourself to this simple program of recovery rarely have they seen it fail.
I see that as a big and important difference.
Now as to the God/Religion issue, here is another quote from the Big Book. (and don't worry monitors the Big Book is public domain and this is one book that we can quote freely from, and in fact any of you that would like to read it online here is the link:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm
I highly recommend it)
On page 47 of the 4th edition in the chapter to the agnostic, it says:
"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth...............we used our own conception (of a higher power)..however limited it was.
We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man (or woman) can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him (or her) that he is on his way".
When I came into Al-Anon I was broken down. I was ready and willing to do anything to stop hurting so bad, to stop wanting to die and start wanting to live.
I was humbled and open. And that is exactly where I needed to be to put aside all of my "Big Brains" power, the brain that just knew what everyone else needed to do. The brain that kept fighting and clawing to try to make the world conform to it's preconcieved notion of how things should be. My "Big Brain" was my Higher Power, and it had done an absolutely marvelous job of getting me to where I was, The Kingdom of David's Misery.
I came in here, I saw what I wanted. I saw people living imperfectly, happy, joyous and free lives.
I had no doubt they had found something fantastic. I was willing to accept, almost blindly whatever they told me. I grabbed on, I hung on for dear life. I tried not to listen to my "Big Brain" when it told me to question the program. I tried to tell it "Look at the results! Do you want that? Or do you want to keep on being lonely, sad, miserable and thinking about killing yourself every evening? Shut the F up, Brain!"
Its funny now, but that is the way it was.
In short ...hahaha.... I surrendered to a Higher Power. I surrendered at first to the Higher Power of the program of Al-Anon and Alcoholics Anonymous. These have gently guided me back to a belief in my current Higher Power, whom I call God.
And what is wonderful is that neither the program or any of you my fellow al-anon members gets to judge or define that God for me, anymore that the program or I get to judge or define who your God is for you.
Wow, if this is my bare minimum, and believe me it probably is, it is a darn good thing I didn't REALLY get on a roll!!!!
The way I see it is that the program lays out principles that work to get ourselves healthier. Saying "Work the program" or reminding someone of the principles can be helpful -- we don't have to reinvent the wheel here, the program is already set up. That's why we're here, to use it. But translating those principles into specifics, like saying, "Detaching means you should break up with him right now" -- that's where we cross the line into harmful advice-giving. Because it's up to all of us to put the principles into action in the appropriate ways for our own lives. And we each have to learn by doing. But reiterating the principles in a helpful, non-judgmental way -- that just seems like being in the program, that's one way we gather wisdom.
I don't see our suggestions "go to a meeting" "focus on yourself" as advice because no one in the program shuns me if I do not go to a meeting or focus on myself. It is a suggestion and I am free to take it or leave it. And it does make me uncomfortable when someone in program seems to be pushing their suggestion on me, or snotty to me if I don't take their suggestion. But some of us are sicker than others and all of us have been affected by this disease.
The God thing, well, there are tons of quotes in our books. There are only a few from the bible (which is seen as a great book in it's own right....not from the religious aspect, but from the moral aspect by many many scolars for thousands of years). Judadism and Christianity have based themselves on the bible, but that is no reason to old it against a piece of great liturature.
The Big Book of AA on the other hand you will not find quoted in any CAL lit. It is not conference approved. Alanon began because AA began but we are a seperate program with seperate issues and needs. The God thing in alanon is different than the God thing in AA and the God thing is different for all of us.
You're right, great program no matter what.
When I had lost all of my faith, and I was angry and questioning, a friend in program told me it was perfectly ok to question it all God could take it. In fact, God wanted me to question. It strengthened my faith.
:angel:
hehe ... the God stuff comes from the group Bill W first went to to get sober it was religious based and Dr Bob did not find sobriety until he left that group and AA was founded , he simply could not accept the concept of God that was presented to him . God ( as we understood him ) gives us the freedom to believe the way we choose ) or not . and since AA graciously allowed us to take thier steps , the concept continued . I try not to question what has been working for 65 yrs now and since I am not an analyzer by nature that keeps it simple for me . Your questions are valid perhaps a letter to WSO would clear the God thing up , they do answer all emails and the only dumb question is the one that is not asked .
). They did this not for personal fame or fortune, but to help their fellows who also suffered from the disease of alcoholism. Because they found that the most sure fire way for they themselves to continue to grow along spiritual lines and remain sober was to help others just like them by carrying the message. To keep it, they had to give it away.
