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I've been here just over a month now, and I'm still struggling to understand anything. I guess I'm on step -1! My main problem is that I don't understand the disease thing! Calling alcoholism a disease seems wrong to me.
I have a skin disease called psoriasis. Some of you may have it too. I have to apply three types of gel, cream and lotion, every single day, on my elbows, knees, ankles and knuckles. And have done so most of my life. If I was to wake up tomorrow with amnesia, having lost my memory, I will still have psoriasis. It's a physical non-curable disease.
How can alcoholism be a disease? Someone chooses to go to a shop, spend what little money they have on booze, rather than food for their family, or pay some bills. Bring it home. Choose to open it, and drink it. Choose to have another one. And another and so on. Sometimes choosing to hide it. Choosing to put their drinking above their husband's/wife's feelings. Above their children's feelings.
They choose not have any remorse, or even be conscious of the effects it is having on the very people that love them madly. Sometimes, i think, it's because they know they are loved so much. It is not a disease when you choose to get wasted when you're 5 months pregnant.
Sure, to you and me, we'd say, you must be ill, if you put your needs above your own kids. Or you must be ill, if you choose to drink when you are pregnant.
So, it does make sense to call it a disease. A mental illness, if you will. BUT, surely, the better explanation, is that these are very very selfish, hurtful people who don't give a monkeys about anyone else but themselves.
Psoriasis is a non-curable disease. "I didn't cause it. I can't cure it. And, I can't control it".
I'm sorry if this upsets anyone. But, I've watched this for 11 years now. Always thinking, the next big "thing", and she'll stop. After we get married. After we have our first child. After we have our second child. And now she's pregnant with our third, and its worst than ever.
I love her too much to leave her. And do you know what, she probably knows that too. This is no disease, how can it be?
Hello Jay , no doubt in my mind this is a disease who in thier right mind wants to live the way an alcoholic does ?always lying , trying to stay ahead of the people who think she / he has a problem , pushing away family who love them, loosing everything theyever coveted ? To believe t hat this is a disease is a choice , you don't have to believe , all that matters is that you cannot control it , your not the cause of it , and you can't cure it . Alcohlism has nothing to do with love if it did we wouldnt need treatment centres , AA or al anon , it will not cure what is happening to your family. There are no musts in al anon so u have a right to believe what your comfortable with . what matters is how her drinking affects you I hope u will find some meetings for yourself , forget what u think u know about alcoholism , talk to people who understand exactly how u feel . We are enablers , and until we stop doing what they should be doing for themselves nothing will change , we believe thier lies , we cover up thier misakes , we make excuses for thier behavior and we do it over and over again thinking this time they will see , notttt . Please find meetings for youself and your children they need one sane parent . and that has to be you . Louise
I am not "upset" by your synopsis at all ajay. I have the same questions and feelings as you, and have had them ever since an alcoholic entered my life. Before then, of course, I had no reason to wonder or care...
To my mind, calling alcoholism a disease is tantamount to giving the alcoholic an excuse for his/her unconscionable behavior, rather than facing it square on as an abomination that can be controlled by the offender. Oh I know, alcoholism supposedly answers all the questions that qualify it as a disease. Still I cannot give 100% credence to the idea. I am not good at saying, "It is the disease talking" when my partner speaks to me in slurring, offensive terms that are hurtful to me. No. What is talking to me is a person with a physical addiction, from which, by his own failure, he does not want badly enough to break free.
All that said, I admit I am outnumbered by those who sincerely believe alcoholism is a disease in every sense of the word. I respect those people and their belief. In fact, I LOVE them. They are to be found right here on this site, and I love each and every one here. I will say though, that if one can truly believe alcoholism is a disease, it may be easier to move up the 12 steps. I am, and have been, stuck near the bottom because of my inability to accept the "disease" premise.
So make of it what you will ajay. I believe there is no right or wrong answer. Only the answer our mind will allow us to accept in our attempt to come to terms with what we face.
I send you all good wishes,
Diva
-- Edited by Diva on Wednesday 22nd of July 2009 07:23:10 PM
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
It took me a while to accept the disease description for alcoholism.
I think what finally did it for me was something I either read or heard somewhere in a completely different context. They were discussing mental illness, and the key words I picked out of their discussion were:
"the human brain is subject to malfunction just like any other organ in the human body."
That's what did it for me. Alcoholism is a disease of the mind / brain. The brain is malfunctioning just like how my heart might malfunction with heart disease.
Pull out AA's Big Book and go to the section on "The Doctor's Opinion". In alcoholics, they have the unfortunate genetics that are best described as an allergy to alcohol. Once they are exposed to alcohol, the allergy is activated which creates a very base dependency upon alcohol. When an alcoholic stops drinking, their bodies will scream at them for more. This is where that restless, irritability can come in.
I compare the restless irritability with what it's like for me if I have been running around crazy most of the day doing errands or work and have neglected to eat. Finally, at some point in time, I realize I am freaking HUNGRY. I may make the unfortunate decision to go to a busy restaurant to satisfy my body's need for food... and end up waiting forever... I get really, REALLY grouchy... I get headaches, might even feel a bit nauseous.
Well... imagine that feeling every single day if your body reacts to alcohol the way an alcoholic's body would.
I can see how that daily, hourly, possibly minute-by-minute desperate call from my body could lead me to making some pretty crappy decisions in my life - trampling over loved ones to get my needs taken care of... to shut those desperate calls off.
I just have to believe that this is a disease, because I don't think 90% of the people afflicted with it really enjoy what it's doing to them... how it's destroying their lives, how they can't seem to control it or do anything about it no matter how much they want to. And we may think they don't care... but they do. They just want to be able to control their drinking but not cause pain to those around them... but it just doesn't work that way... the disease... that allergy... won't allow it... it keeps them in constant pain until they get their next drink.
If you haven't yet, I'd encourage you to drop by some open AA meetings and listen to what the alcoholics are going through. It might help you find the understanding that you're looking for.
I have my Bachelors in Public Health and Education. I did a lot of updated research on addiction.
A disease is a list of symtoms that all together fit just one disease.
Addiction is a disease. People who suffer addiction, have actual markers in their dna. Some people have more markers than others as they have many members in their past family who had or have the disease also. The more they have the stronger their disease is
No one chooses to be an addict. An addict is allergic to alcohol, when people are allergic to something, gas fumes, air plane glue etc. they are driven to it, they like it.
An addict is "addicted to using drugs" it is NOT a chose. Addiction is that, driven to do something right or wrong.
I have a lot of experience in this in my lifetime, by growing up in the 60's and 70's. Saw so many friends go thru it, and die and some are still here and suffering the last stages, in recovery, still using.
NO one chooses to take a chance and drive and kill kids in a car. then go back to use again. NO one chooses to lose their loved ones, their home, their job, their vehicle, their fishing pole their family, friends, their health, be incontenate, have cirrosis be in horrible pain and still drink.
I have known so many people that HATE being an addict, they do not want to keep using. Many go through recovery five or more times! Relapsing is sadly a normal part of recovery.
As far as remorse, we who are not addicts have NO idea the pain of guilt they feel. It is HORRIBLE. We will never, ever understand them and their disease, because we are not addicts.
They are stuck, feel horribly guilty, use to forget, feel more guilty, start again. They are the age they were when they started using. So when they go into detox, rehab AA. they may be 12 or 15 or 18 , 21 etc. There are fifty year old men and women who are in rehab that have the milestones only up to 12 to 21 etc.
When did your wife start using? That is the age they are. They cannot grow/mature if they use away all their challenges, grief, losses, pain, we grow when things are tough and we work through them.
My family, both sides, never drank or smoked or anything. Clear way back past my great gpa's and gma's! I am probably healthier than most people, with very healthy dna. My gpa died at 95 . A huge man, farmer, lovely funny talkative guy. He died when his lungs go too old. My gma died at 106, used the bathroom and lived independant until the night she died, was still gma. Her heart gave out.
So here I am all my life with the hippies, vegies, potheads, heroin addicts etc. That time it was acceptable to use, pot was not illegal.
We cannot blame them. They need us to respect them, respect their decisions. Just like we don't want anyone controlling us.
I know it is hard to accept, but until we do, the disease makes us very sick too.
And AJay let me explain that. If one believes their spouse is a drunk even when they get pg. Then what is making one get them pg in the first place?
This is how we know we are sick too. We don't see things in a healthy way anymore.
I also taught special ed. So I am going to suggest to you, when your kids get older, if they have behavioral and learning problems, I would get help quickly. If she was drinking through the pregnancys, the kids have a VERY high chance of having FAS. Fetal Alchohol Syndrome.
Believe me, NO woman choosed to use when she is pg.
Ajay we have ALL been thru in different ways what you are. My own best friend has a wife he has loved since they were young. They have two boys. Thank goodness she did not drink until after they were born.
She started having one on week ends, now she is lviing on her bed watching tv. Her boys are sortof ok becuz of dad.
My heart goes out to you. I hope you will keep coming back. We already care about you and yours.
Many people here have possibly up to 50 years of experience with addiction themselves or loved ones who are addicts.
I believe it is a cunning and baffling disease and it most definitely affects those around it who do not drink.
Here's a neat letter below. Read on. Maria
Hello:
Have we met before? If not let me tell you a little about myself. I don't share myself with just anyone. I pick only a chosen few who will appreciate me, and then, only if the timing is perfect. I have chosen you. For people like you are very special to me because it is your kind who are perceptive to my many talents. You'll be very anxious to know me better, and as soon as we touch, the physical attraction between us soars. We'll continue our encounter, with me leading you down a path of pure physical exhilaration, and you'll beg for more.
At first our attraction will be purely physical, but you must realize that this is a very important phase of our relationship. Be confident that it will grow into something much deeper. I am. As we get to know each other better, you'll learn to come to me with your problems: For not only will I help you with them, but I will also take away their deep pain. I'll give you the best that I have, and I'll be patient. I'll know, in time, that you will give yourself totally to me.
When you are with me, you'll feel warm and secure. I will ease your mind, soothe away your troubles, and fill your soul with pleasure. With me, you'll feel as if you can conquer the world: As if you have a special key to happiness. You'll enjoy living again. I'll be the answer to your unspoken prayers. You'll soon wonder how you ever lived without me.
As our relationship grows, you'll start to exclude others from your life . . . but that's okay, you know that I can give you all you need. I'll be your lover, best friend, and confidant. I will always be available when you need me. This I will prove to you time and time again, and you'll realize that you don't need others -- when you have someone like me, all others seem inadequate.
So we'll see more and more of each other and decide that it is really impractical not to live together, so we'll make that move. Our life together will encompass many beautiful experiences. We'll do it all together: Swim in the ocean, picnic on the beach, fly kites; and whenever you feel the urge, we'll make love. Our relationship will be devoid of fights or arguments. I'll give myself totally to you, knowing that I'll receive the same in return.
You'll soon realize that you've dedicated your life to me. It will happen before you know it. I sort of take you by surprise, and you'll wonder if maybe you should take some time alone, away from me. After all, people say everyone needs some time alone, even if they are in love. And face it, you are irrestibly in love with me. So you vow to take some time alone, even though you really don't want to.
You'll start to spend the day in solitary adventure, doing something you've always wanted to do, after a few hours though, you'll find that you're not really enjoying yourself, and realize that you miss me more than you ever thought you could. You'll feel a terrible empty void without me and think about coming back home. It makes you a little angry that you didn't keep the promise to yourself, but you rationalize that you don't have to come back home, but rather you just want to. The whole way home you tell yourself that if you really want to spend the day alone, you could -- you just don't want to.
When you walk through that door, it will fill my heart with pleasure -- for I'd been hoping that you wouldn't spend the whole day without me. You'll come running to me, and I'll take you in my arms and hold you so tightly that it becomes a bit painful, but you won't mind. Though you won't see my face as I embrace you, I'll have a very satisfied smile. For it's the moment I have been waiting for. I've got you right where I want you. You now have no choice. You cannot live without me and I'll love it!!!
It's precisely at this point that you cease to be my lover and become my victim. You see, my ultimate goal is to murder you, and I have begun to do just that. But my methods are slow. I can do it slowly because you won't be able to leave me even though you know that I am killing you. That's the joy of it; the beauty of it! You will make a choice to die, and you'll let me do it.
Do you recognize me yet? You should . . . for you see, this relationship has already taken place between you and I. We are intimately acquainted, and now, I am patiently waiting for you to come back to me. I will follow you and wait for you wherever you go. I can wait forever -- for you see, I am your drug of choice -- alcohol (or whatever other addiction).
Source: Unknown
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If I am not for me, who will be? If I am only for myself, then who am I? If not now, when?
Aloha AJ and good for you finding the courage to post those thoughts and beliefs here. I use to believe that Alcoholism wasn't a disease. I couldn't believe either that my alcoholic wife would do those things on purpose and when I got to the point where I accepted that she did them on purpose she cease to be my wife and a good woman and child of God and became a bitch! She drank more and I got sicker and still I couldn't figure her/it out. The worse it got the angrier I got and our disease progressed into physical abuse on my part and still she drank more and more often including accepting responsibility for the physical abuse!! A normal woman would have left or quit drinking or changed some...and then I found the doors of the Al-Anon Family Groups and the definition of alcoholism that included mentioning that it was a AMA (American Medical Association) registered class A disease having its own pathology and not being a symptom of any thing else. I was relieved because I was sick of thinking of her as a bad/weak person. She was alcoholic before we met so I certainly didn't cause it. Later I found out it ran and was running widely throughout her entire family.
You know that Psoriasis you have? When it starts to itch try not scratching it. Try not medicating it or working a program for healing yourself. You have to control it with the medication. It is your disease and no one else caused it, can control it or cure it. You have to do that program or else scratch!! So it is with your spouse. She has also got an itch which cannot be scratched. Her compulsion to drink is the same as the compulsion to scratch and if she scratches her body continues to break down. Her compulsion to scratch is stronger than any belief or value system or reality about alcohol addiction she may have. The compulsion to use is stronger than God and not even God can do for her what alcohol can do now. She knows alcohol and alcohol knows her. Maria's post is very supportive for anyone attempting to understand. Choosing not to drink is the last choice you wife can make for now. To choose to not drink is impossible, unthinkable, scary. Drinking is what she does...In spite of any evidence that she should not. That is the alcoholic and do they behave like this on purpose, with centered thought before hand, inspite of the evidence? If that was the case then surely your wife is uncaring, spiteful and purposefully hurtful...or maybe she's sick...very sick...deathly sick with an addicts mentality.
I once heard from Fr. John Martin that an alcoholic drinks the way they do because they cannot drink at all. That was one piece of reality that brought me to my senses and helped me understand what I was watching my alcoholic spouse do and why she continued to drink even during and after she was treated the way she was by myself and others. Sadly...this is an incurable disease that results in death and/or insanity unless it is completely arrested. No drinking at all and a complete change of lifestyle in regard to alcohol. One measured way to find out if a person is alcoholic is to examine the family, friends and associates. If they are confused and quizzacle as to why the person drinks the way they do ...that person surely is alcoholic and that is why the World-wide Fellowship of the Al-Anon Family Groups exists today. You can recovery your balance, mind, body, spirit and emotions regardless of whether your spouse continues to drink or not.
Look for the hotline phone number for Al-Anon in the phone book for meeting places and times and call them for information and support. There are other members here from inside the UK. You are not alone. I'm pretty sure that they will step forward and offer you supports as soon as they know you are here with a common problem we all suffer from.
This is a longish response however I've lived your story myself and I needed help back then myself.
I can really relate ajay - it took me a very long time to accept this is a disease b/c I can have 2 glasses of wine and walk away if I wanted to. I dont hink about booze every moment of the day, it's just not a very big deal to me. I can also feel my feelings and express them. Nothing ever stopped me from that or "numbed" me. In fact drinking would often make my feelings more intense.
I was very angry and very resisitent to changing anything. Once I did accept this was a mental disease, it made it a lot easier for me to stop focusing on them and focus on me and change what I could. My attitude needed some help - I was miserable and irritated all the time.
Once I got into me and program, that all changed. Today I have a lot more understanding, I dont try to control anyone, I have peace. Detachemnt was the greatest gift of all.
At the very least, u can easily say it is insanity.
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
This is often a struggling point for many members. For me, I have always accepted it as a disease. A cunning, baffling and powerful one. When you really think about it do you know anyone who wants t be an addict. I certainly don't know anyone. It's not like they woke up one day and said "Gee when I grow up and want to be an addict." Just like noone would say "Gee I wish I had diabetes."
What makes this so hard to accept and understand is that there is choice involved to a certain extent. Addicts only have 3 choices: sobriety, institution (ie. jail) or death. Their behavior and their choices directly affects the outcome of their life. The problem is this disease can grab and hold of them and not let go. I have seen people with 20 years sobriety take a drink and never come back.
No disease I know can cause this much hurt and pain to family and friends in the way this does. Sure cancer is a life altering disease and the affect on the family and friends can be devastating. But the family members don't blame the person for getting it. They just naturally accept it and deal with it. They pull together. This one tears the family apart. That's why Alanon is so important to us. It's our lifeline. Love and blessings to you and your family.
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
"Alcoholism and addiction is one of the few diseases that tells you don't have a disease, you don't need help, you can have just one drink, one pill, one hit, and it won't make your life unmanagable. For those who truly are an alcoholic and addict - this can't be further from the truth"
I can't remember the AA Speaker that said this - but this is how he explained the disease concept for him.
For me, I don't understand why water is wet, why the sky is blue, why electricity cools my home and why the alcoholics/addicts that I know continue on the downward spiral in their disease instead of embracing recovery. . .
I just know that in order for me to have any serenity in my life - I need to accept that this is the way it is at the moment and focus on taking care of what needs to be done to keep me healthy.
Wishing you Serenity, Joy and Love, Rita
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No matter what me and my God are going to be ok, even better than OK -
Maybe it's a disease, maybe it's a personality disorder, maybe it's any number of things....
For me, I accepted it as a disease when I saw my then AW lying on the floor, at 10:15am one morning, totally passed out after having drank a full bottle of vodka - with two little kids playing nearby without supervision, etc., etc - I accepted then and there that NOBODY would choose this for themselves, as she certainly was no longer drinking for sport of for fun.
Great thread, and all kinds of great responses. I agree with Diva (see, I knew it would happen one day, lol.... :) ) - I don't think there is any right or wrong answers to this question, and I DO think that fixating on this question can inhibit some of us in working the Steps....
My wise old sponsor used to beat me over the head with the reminder of "focus on the whats, and not the whys"...... To me, the issue of whether or not alcoholism is a disease or not falls into that "why" category, cuz we always have to ask ourselves the question:
"if I knew the answer to it, would it REALLY change anything??"
take care,
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Wow, I am blown away by the responses to your post here. I have been mad at my man sometimes for choosing to drink... and the interesting thing is that lately, just lately, I have decided not to judge him/his actions and not try to curtail or inhibit him in anyway, and just see what he does.... IN the beginning, I was thinking we'd have a nice normal relationship-- you know, the kind where one spouse says to the other "I think you've had enough, dear." and that is that. You wave, glad hand, say thanks for the nice party, and go home.
It confused and frustrated me, caused me all kinds of anxiety to think I had done my part with the "No, we'll pass" when drinks were offered only to find him with a drink in his hand 2 minutes later.
I see alcoholics in the hospital ER where I work all the time. It is sobering for me to think that my adorable and loving man has only 3 choices: sobriety, incarceration, or death... even if he doesn't go to jail or die... the health repercussions are prisons of their own... I see it EVERY DAY. The saddest part to me, now that I love an addict, is how they are treated by even the ER staff around me/my coworkers. Even knowing what we know about the disease... even myself, knowing what I know... I'm guarded, I don't take them too seriously, find myself agreeing with coworkers who roll their eyes at the man with a BAC of 0.568 (he was still carrying on a conversation, too).
It's a disease. It has to be. NO one would choose this, even if they did initially.
I'm about to marry this man knowing what lies ahead are going to be bittersweet years for me, painful years, possibly. Late night phone calls, mishaps with power tools, perhaps, maybe an accident, maybe a DUI...and know there isn't a think I can do except walk away.
You cannot go on thinking that an event will make her change. You need to admit that it doesn't work to think she'll ever change and be the wonderful person you know she can be. She is what she is. And maybe one day she will get help? But don't count on it. And when she does, be prepared for that to be a hard and trying time for you both as well.
My "Hands" (I call him here) is lovely, and I am sad for him that he has no ambition in life other than to build this house and let me take care of him. I am praying that we stay safe-- emotionally/physically/legally... and when his lungs or his liver (he's a pothead) start giving him issues, I"ll still love him, and with any luck at all, I'll see him through, safely, to the end. It seems senseless, I know. And really dumb of me to sign on for this, knowing what I know.
It's a rough job. But someone has got to do it. In the long run, I do think he's worth it. If he had cancer or aids, I'd do the same.
You don't have to believe it's a disease in order for you to begin to receive the gifts of Alanon. You'll find oldtimers and newcomers in AA and Alanon alike to debate these semantics, but they are secondary to recovery.
When I first read step two, "...could restore us to sanity", I didn't know what to make of it. Restore me to what? Restoring meant that I had been sane in the first place, which I was never sure of.
I really only heard one thing that I believed at my first meetings. Keep coming back. Then keep coming back it works. It gets better if you keep coming back.
Don't worry about the technicalities. Disease is a word; we humans make up our own definitions for words... subject to change and debate. Debate can be fun, stimulating, educational. You can go on line and read opinions of very educated people to support both sides of the argument... none of which have any bearing on OUR recovery.
I received the gift - of sobriety, and of serenity, long before I figured it out. Heck, I still haven't figured it out. Come, come to, come to believe... and receive.
Fantastic responses here. Thank you all for sharing.
I struggled with this too. I think many of us do. For me, the clincher was tetrahydroisoquinolone - THQ. Google THQ and alcoholism together.
In a nutshell, the metabolic process for alcohol is different for an alcoholic and a non-alcoholic. It starts out the same, but in the alcoholic, later in the process, this THQ is formed and begins building up in the brain.
When I understood this, I was finally able to say, ok - I understand this as much as I'm GOING to understand it. Now I can go and do what I've been hearing in my Alanon meetings - namely focus on ME. For me, it took about 6 months of going to meetings. NOT 6 months of trying to understand it without going to meetings. I find over and over again in my program that when I try to wrap my brain around "it", whatever "it" is at the moment, I get stuck. When I do what I'm hearing instead - take the suggestions that are offered - I feel better, EVEN THOUGH I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY.
In short - Keep coming back, 'coz it works if you work it. Really and truly.
I've been away from a PC for the last couple of days. I didn't realize what great responses have come back.
Thank you all so much.
When I wrote my original question, i was worried that people my think I was being self indulgent, and deliberately provocative. But, I wasn't. And you're response, never suggest that i was. Again, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my concerns.
You've given me so much to think about. It's just what I needed.
Oh and btw, don't worry about keep coming back!! I ain't going nowhere!! This website has given me and my family a huge lifeline. And it's up to me, to grab it.
Thank you so much, for the love and support that you have given me since I've been here. ((((everyone)))))
I've always had an issue with calling addictions a disease.
Saying someone is allergic also makes no biological sense. When someone has an allergy, the body rejects it and the person becomes ill from the allergen. If addicts were allergic to their "drug" of choice, they would be truly sick once the subtance was consumed.
When I can't stand a smell, I void it, not gravitate towards it.
Having said that, if an addict was put in isolation or on a deserted island, where there were no drugs, booze or anything else to get high with, do you think the addict would find something else to destroy themselves with?
