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I realize that this board if for support and not to give direct advice but i would appreciated some direction on some specific situations while I learn.... ADH has as 20+ history drinking and been "sober" for 3 years (with about 5 one night slips during that time). We dated as teenagers and got back together 20 years later after my divorce and married 9 months after that. He was going to AA all the time leading up to our marraige and i never saw ANY of this behavior before we got married and I was looking for it. We talked about the stressors of him being married for the first time, of moving, of taking on my (6) children etc., everything was very open and honest, I'm a social worker and had even considered go to Al anon when things were great just because I knew about the possibility of relapse, etc. After we married he stopped going to AA and was exhibititing the same behaviours as those mentioned here for other dry drunks and those who are still drinking. About 3 months ago things got really bad and he went back to AA for about 3 weeks straight, daily meetings and things were wonderful again so it is so frustrating to deal with this stuff when i know if he just would go to his meetings it would be different but knowing that I can't make him go to meetings.... here are my questions if anyone wants to take a stab.... 1. it seems the longer its been since a meeting, the more paranoid he gets. I.E. last night he brought me a chloroprep vial and asked if I was putting clonodine in his icetea to calm him down. I work in a hospital and what he brought me was a steril prep to clean wounds. I told him it was "chloroprep" and not "clonodine" and told him he would get really sick If I had put it in his drink. he acts like he's kidding but I dont' think he is....how do I respond to something like that???? I love this man, I'd never do anything to hurt him. 2. again with the paranoia....I'm at work now and called him to get his credit card number to set up payment for his business website...he gave it to me and then said "now dont' be going and renting any hotel rooms with it" again, acting like he's kidding but he knows I dont' kid like that and he doesn't say stuff like that when he goes to meetings... 3. the whole scenerio I posted under the "why must they keep us up at night" thread where he goes to sleep at 8:30 or 9:00 and is up and ready to face the day at 4:00 so therefore I guess I should get up too? reality is that we have a new baby, and 8 other children in the home currently (6 of mine, 2 of his) and I was up until around midnight getting children settled and tidying up so I guess I'm supossed to get by on 4 hours of sleep? 4. when he is not going to AA he gets angry about everything, and he tells me he is feeling angry and I tell him its because he is not going to AA - and sometimes he is receptive and goes within a few days and sometimes he says he doesn't have time (but has time to go to the gym). should I even mention AA? or leave that all up to him.
When he is going to AA he so sweet and considerate and I feel like the luckiest person in the world to have reconnected with him after all these years. He told me before we were married that he never got over me and his brothers and sisters all told me the same thing, and even one of his ex's told me that when they were together he told her I was his one true love...... but when he is not going to AA, he is such a different person and i know that I didnt' cause it and can't change it (see I am listening) even though I still think i can change it if I just do and say the "right"thing.. takes a little bit to sink in.... anyway, I know i have to take care of ME and I'd appreciate any ideas on how to address the above issues while still showing him love and respect. (I am a "I'd do anything for anyone" type of person so backing off is sooooooo hard...
Aloha Amylynn...of course you're a social worker and you get paid for it too!! Some enablers have regular 8 hour dull jobs and some don't have any but those in the HELP!!!!...ING industry? Wide shoulders and big biceps. I worked in the HELP!!! ING field myself and was married to an alcoholic too...Oh now I get it!!
What I did was the very first thing you thought about in going to Al-Anon. GO!! Alcoholism is cunning, powerful and baffling and that includes the "ics" and their enablers. What I did when I was living with active alcoholism I don't do now for any reason or person. I am a member of both the Al-Anon Family Groups and then 9 years later Al-Anon and AA. I was working out patient and in patient in a major recovery facility in central CA. I needed a very good sponsor in Al-Anon and a very great counselor who headed the Veterans Alcohol Program in order to be able to put one foot infront of each other and be able to tell which one. You cannot "fix" an alcoholic....repeat that again with me..."I cannot fix an alcoholic". Trying to fix one gets you broke and by the way...even their sponsors know and believe that. I will not point a finger at your alcoholic and/or try to describe what he is going thru. It doesn't matter. What does matter is you and your children and for that there is the Al-Anon Family Groups and Alateen. If you don't have an Alateen meeting available and your children are 12 or older and can mind for an hour or so...take them into the Al-Anon Meeting with you. Here in Hawaii we don't have a lot of Alateen and we understand when a parent brings in a youngster.
Any how back up to that statement you made about going to Al-Anon and go find the hotline number in your phone book or check into AFGWSO.org for the meeting locations and go fast!! You might even have the meeting list yourself as alot of social workers do so that they can refer out?
When I can recognize I'm starting to obsess over what the alcoholic in my life is doing I try to do whatever I can to break the obsession.
Ever watch The Dog Whisperer on National Geographic channel? It is SO funny, because one time when I saw him working with the dogs, I kind of equated some of the animals fixation behaviors to be like how my mind latches on to what my alcoholic is doing.
Whenever he's working with breaking a dog's bad habits - ie: they start to fixate on another animal... start growling, then barking and some even get downright dangerous, Ceasar has this trick where he breaks their concentration. He'll firmly nudge them or poke them in the side and go "SHHH!" Sometimes not even a poke is necessary... just the "SHHH!" Typically he'll do this BEFORE it starts to get elevated, and he'll KEEP doing it until the animal's fixation disappears.
So, there seems to be a very base animalistic behavior in my mind where I'll allow myself to fixate on something. "Oh no... AH is grumpy... what's his problem? I should ask him what's going on. And then when he tells me, I'm going to provide unsolicited advice because I feel uncomfortable when he's grumpy. Jeez, what's his deal anyway. Was it something I did? I bet he's thinking [x]! He better not be thinking..." enter Ceasar from the Dog Whisperer with a quick nudge and a "SHHH!"
So... I need some kind of a Ceasar moment in my life - if I can catch myself fixating, I can use the tools of the program:
I can see if a slogan applies to the situation.
I can recite the twelve steps to myself... and usually Step One is enough to bring me to reality.
I can find a quiet place and have a private one-on-one with my HP.
I can call my sponsor.
I can get my behind over to a meeting.
I can call another Al-Anon member who isn't necessarily my sponsor.
I can read some literature - CAL or something else uplifting and spiritual.
I can stop and ask myself "If this wasn't going through my mind right now, what would I be doing instead?" and then do that thing.
Diversion is what I need. And I find I need it almost daily. I try to make two to three Al-Anon meetings a week. I have two scheduled phone calls with my sponsor every week, as well. And thank goodness, there is actually a meeting every day of the week out where I live (well, the Saturday one is far, but hey! It's THERE!)
Long and short of it, I've got to keep the focus on myself.
My "advice" would be to get to as many meetings as you can in the next week, find a sponsor and start working the steps with your sponsor. Serenity will come. :)
So, there seems to be a very base animalistic behavior in my mind where I'll allow myself to fixate on something. "Oh no... AH is grumpy... what's his problem? I should ask him what's going on. And then when he tells me, I'm going to provide unsolicited advice because I feel uncomfortable when he's grumpy. Jeez, what's his deal anyway. Was it something I did? I bet he's thinking [x]! He better not be thinking..." enter Ceasar from the Dog Whisperer with a quick nudge and a "SHHH!"
THAT is BRILLIANT.... I can soooo relate to that. What a wonderful analogy and testimony of experience, strength and hope.
amylynn...i know what it is like to feel sooooo affected by what aH is doing, or not doing, or saying, or not saying, or feeling, or not feeling, .... in that process for me, over the course of our 7 yr marriage, I enabled him, broke myself, and lost "ME". My choices, my mistakes. These folks on here, and those in the face to face rooms of alanon are teaching me a different way and giving me the option to be happy again, regardless of my relationships with people; anyone. To be "ME" again, not ME in reflection of someone else, but ME in reflection of ME. I couldn't and can't do it alone.
"Oh no... AH is grumpy... what's his problem? I should ask him what's going on. And then when he tells me, I'm going to provide unsolicited advice because I feel uncomfortable when he's grumpy. Jeez, what's his deal anyway. Was it something I did? I bet he's thinking [x]! He better not be thinking..." OMG YES!!!! that is my exact thought process, as late as 4:00 this morning even, thank you so much for the suggestions!!! Amy
Thanks Aloha for that analogy, I love the dog whisperer. (i had to learn to stop looking at my dogs... thus starting my own fixating, hehe).
AL, who knows why your AH is doing that stuff, could be a joke could be not ~ if u ask a direct question there isnt really a guarantee you'll get the truth anyway. We cant make them go & do what's good for them but we can MAKE us, do what's good for us. You say your willinbg to do whatever it takes - ur a scarifical type of love person I call it being a romantic & yes, I'd walk the earth for my loved one) but all that sort of behavior ever got me was close to being completely martyred my dear self & all martyrs do is end up dead.
Between your career & that house full of kids, u certainly dont have time to be trying to second guess ur AH -- & you probably wouldnt be "right" anyway, so dont bother. Get to meetings, work the steps, find a sponsor, learn to detach with love from ur AH's behavior... what he's thinking, doing or NOT & release all of that. Get yourself into focus.
Remember A's get a huge pay off when we are fixated or obsessing on them - we are feeding energy into their disease. Best thing to combat this disease for them & us, is to simply turn your attention to YOU. All that energy you were givein your AH, turn it inward & work on you where it can do some good.
Being a healthy person for your kids & AH is the best gift you could give yourself, so let that be your goal.
I will answer ur question though... what would I do if my A was asking me ridiuclous questions, scenarios in which I was practially being accused of hurting them (as u sd) - I'd tell them with a straight face, "your being ridiculous" and forget about it completely - do not attach to the thought or consider it again... focus on me, get to a meeting, talk to a sponsor. Hopefully when he sees ur no longer feeding into his antics, he will try something else - maybe he'll even go to a meeting. I dont believe there is any harm is suggesting, "you are paranoid, call your sponsor" but then leave it there. We cant be thinking about them too much or their program - that would be taking his inventory & we need to be busy taking our own.
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
Between your career & that house full of kids, u certainly dont have time to be trying to second guess ur AH -- & you probably wouldnt be "right" anyway, so dont bother. Get to meetings, work the steps, find a sponsor, learn to detach with love from ur AH's behavior... what he's thinking, doing or NOT & release all of that. Get yourself into focus.
##### I concur....A's LOVE to be in control of their partner....the less I react and the more i respond the better i am
REACTING....giving my power over to them...behaving out of emotions...their in control
RESPONDING....THINKING first...Getting "collected" within me.....DOING what is BEST for me after working my program tools.......= KEEPING my POWER onto and in ME......
I respond to others, IF I don't owe them an amend for wrong doing....I respond with DETACHMENT...and if they are abusive??? I remove me from the abuse by walking away....temporarily or permanently....depends on how bad it is and how dangerous it is to be aroudn them.....sounds in your case, he is just "grumpy" that is HIS problem....I would just "walk way" take care of me....let him feel what he wants........
Amylynn, I am so glad you asked the question, because the responses were So helpful to me! Jerry's great advice about enableers, professional or amateur, Aloha's Dog Whisperer post. I will forever see myself, when I start obsessing about the Other, as a Fixated Dog. What a great visual! What a great memory aid. And how true! And how discerning to see that! Kitty always has this calm, peaceful, wise approach, and I loved "I would look at him with a straight face and say 'You're being ridiculous' and forget about it completely. I want some of that. I want a whole lot of that. And Rosie always knocks me out with her great take on everything. So Amylynn I can't add anything, cause I'm just learning myself. You couldn't have better support. Bless you. And bless all our great teachers on here. Hugs, Temple
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It's easy to be graceful until someone steals your cornbread. --Gray Charles
Number one this behavior is insane. What makes a sane person pay attention to it? Going to AA or not is totally up to the A, they know what they are doing waaaaay before you notice. It is all manipulation. Keeps focus on him. This is NOT recovery.
None of this matters.
So we go to meetings, we read literature, we research aism, we come here, we practice all we learn.
Then we focus on us, the kids, our home. What the A does he does. We love him, ignore the disease.
Take one day and decide how we will handle it that day.
We don't try to "help/enable" them. With an A is it not like a regular relationship.
Sadly we each have our own life but somehow meet once in awhile and it is good. Appreciate that time.
We are as sick as they are and sicker. The sooner we stop the madness the sooner we start coming here saying: I chose to make a room all my own that has a computer, comfy beds and or bean bags big pillows and maybe snacks and juice in it and the door locks. Maybe tv dvd games a happy safe room.
I chose to completely ignore and not respond to insanity. The questions etc.
I will go into the safe room to sleep. Or put a bed in the babies room, whatever it takes. I am sure when we don't take care of us, we are grumpy and not easy to get along with and the kiddos pay.
Boundaries, I will be sleeping in the x room if I keep getting work up at 4 am.
I will be ignoring the insane comments. (You don't have to tell him this)I did not respond to them at all, just the disease talking anyway.
I will love him when "he" is here, when it is the other, I will have things set up to go do and do them.
It is still possible to love the person, at the same time ignoring the disease.
I have not had my AH here in 5 years. I still love him and hate the disease that took him and my first husband away from me.
Then your posts will be I did this, today I had the kids, the A and all of us watched, A was insane today so I.
You are on your way as you came here, you are questioning some very important things, you are still lucid and still can move, geez having 8 kids is MAJOR.
You still feel love for him, and have some "good time" with him, and appreciate it.
I am so awed by all the wisdom here from everyone.
I am happy you keep coming back Amylynn. You have miracles coming your way.
OK...I copied and pasted the ????s for my TAKE...I don't give advise, just a take
1. it seems the longer its been since a meeting, the more paranoid he gets. I.E. last night he brought me a chloroprep vial and asked if I was putting clonodine in his icetea to calm him down. I work in a hospital and what he brought me was a steril prep to clean wounds. I told him it was "chloroprep" and not "clonodine" and told him he would get really sick If I had put it in his drink. he acts like he's kidding but I dont' think he is....how do I respond to something like that???? I love this man, I'd never do anything to hurt him.
meetings retain sobriety and emotional sobriety...even us alanons or codas or acas, can lose our "emotional sobriety"if we are not contantly and gently "steered" on the course of recovery...old patterns come right back in if we are not vigilent....a's with their addictive personalities are 1 drink away frm slipping...slips are a result of NO meets...NO influence of a good sponsor...Not keeping the steps in teh forefront...look at us..what happens with us when we "diss" our recovery???? we get crazy again...we get enabling again...we get codependent again....
how do you respond???? telling him the truth and letting go...I would w/out emotional upheaval, explain to him the facts...and drop it.....assure him that you would not harm him intentionally and let him be...if he wants to diss his meets and get paranoid??? you are POWERLESS..............
i see ???s about him and his behaviour, what about you??? do you have a sponsor??? what steps are you working on this??? when have you gone to the meets????
2. again with the paranoia....I'm at work now and called him to get his credit card number to set up payment for his business website...he gave it to me and then said "now dont' be going and renting any hotel rooms with it" again, acting like he's kidding but he knows I dont' kid like that and he doesn't say stuff like that when he goes to meetings...
so you get the number, set up payment and then again, stick with YOU and YOUR actions and taking care of you...i am reading MORE interest in his behaviour, trying to work on him and not YOU.....we know he is not going to meets....what about you???? its useless to try and 2nd guess him or analyze why he does this or that....hes an alkie....hes and "ism" personality, he has paranoia from not working his program.....I would "step up" MY program and try and undrstand ME and what I can do to take care of ME and keep MY serenity.....
why can't he get HE use his card and set up payment for HIS business website???? as long as we *enable* and *carry their load* they are never going to see that they have problems......i see this post and i see that he does not have ONE problem.....YOU have taken them on YOUR back....
how is he gonna learn his lessons if he has you to take care of what HE can do?????? I let my ex pay his OWN bills.....I did NOT do for him what he could do for himself....and now, looking back, i saw the futility even then, that is was USELESS trying to figure him out...i just didn't know what to do for me...
3. the whole scenerio I posted under the "why must they keep us up at night" thread where he goes to sleep at 8:30 or 9:00 and is up and ready to face the day at 4:00 so therefore I guess I should get up too? reality is that we have a new baby, and 8 other children in the home currently (6 of mine, 2 of his) and I was up until around midnight getting children settled and tidying up so I guess I'm supossed to get by on 4 hours of sleep?
I cann't get by on 4 hrs. sleep.... why do you get up too??? why are you thinking you gotta get up too??? is he keeping house so loud you cannot sleep??? if that were me, i would wake HIM up....I would make sure HE didn't sleep too...and I would not pay his bills, let HIM pay or suffer the consequences.....you say you work, your taking care of your job.....I would not do a THING for him that he can do for himself....
4. when he is not going to AA he gets angry about everything, and he tells me he is feeling angry and I tell him its because he is not going to AA - and sometimes he is receptive and goes within a few days and sometimes he says he doesn't have time (but has time to go to the gym). should I even mention AA? or leave that all up to him.
yea, hes not doing his program....so yea, anger, rage, controlling..... I would go to MY program and LET IT GO re: anything about him....if he goes??? good for him....if he does not??? what else is new w/non serious A who is not serious about his recovery???? so what meets are YOU going to????
I want to hear about what you are doing re: steps....what does your sponsor say about all this??? how many meets are you going to????
i see too much attention to this guy who does not want to help himself, and no attention on what YOU need...what YOU are doing for YOU??? YOUR program???
I would let him live/fall.......its not within my power to change another.....i can only work on me.....where is the focus on on the one you CAN help......YOU????
When he is going to AA he so sweet and considerate and I feel like the luckiest person in the world to have reconnected with him after all these years. He told me before we were married that he never got over me and his brothers and sisters all told me the same thing, and even one of his ex's told me that when they were together he told her I was his one true love......
well he is NOT going to AA.....so what are you doing for you???
i want to hear if you are working w/sponsor i would like to see you offering up what you are learning about the steps on this i would LOVE to see what you are doing to take care of YOU...
i see too much on him, and not enough about YOU.....
but when he is not going to AA, he is such a different person and i know that I didnt' cause it and can't change it (see I am listening) even though I still think i can change it if I just do and say the "right"thing.. takes a little bit to sink in.... anyway, I know i have to take care of ME and I'd appreciate any ideas on how to address the above issues while still showing him love and respect. (I am a "I'd do anything for anyone" type of person so backing off is sooooooo hard...
they ALL are like that.......I do not have the power to change it.....
i would like to see you work the steps and finding out what in your past caused you to be sooo compliant to this that you are forsaking your well being....i know...i did it too UNTIL i worked ON ME....
AHA!!! YES!!!! you know you hae to take care of you........and "love and respect" what about YOU??? what love and respect and BOUNDARIES are you giving to the #1 in your life----YOU????? when I was "doing anything for anyone" I was HARMING them......NOT allowing them to experience the lessons as a result of their behaviour, caused them to not ever see they had problems......also enabling them to the point where I LOST me.....I was so enmeshed w/ my alkie ex , MY needs were never met.....
i "gave till it hurt" THEN i became bitter and resentful b/c MY needs were not met--------whose fault was that???? MINE....I had a choice............drop him and let him learn his OWn lessons and take care of his OWN stuff................OR be his slave and give ME UP!!! i gave me up for years, until i got into recovery.......worked on ME and ME only......i got several sponsors......i have a library on the 12 steps alone......and I WORK it...
i did not get healthy re: relationships on my own.....I had to WORK my program and lean on my God and my sponsor and my program recovery mates......
KEEPING THE FOCUS ON ME...............yea, you can LOVE someone but do you want to BE that someone?????? do you want to absorb his life???? prevent him from learning his lessons by suffering the consequences??????
as long as you focus on him and NOT you, HE has your powr....HE owns your life......HE is your spiritual vampire...........
I did it.....all of us b4 recovery did it in some way or the other and when the pain got bad enough I said "STOP---------ITS MY TURN for my care and love"...........Life began to change when I took my power back and decided........I am takin care of ME......MY needs.......MY recovery......MY deserved good....
I am glad you are posting...I hope to see you hanging with us...
I would love to see you give yourself the love and care and attention that you are giving to him that YOU deserve.....
.this is not a trade.......YOUR giving....HES taking...............WHAT are YOU getting??? are YOUR needs being met????? and whose responsibility is it to meet your needs???? YOU..........who is responsible for HIS needs????? HIM, but you have taken that responsiblity onto you and at the cost of YOU.......so he gets HIS love/attention/caring AND he gets YOUR love/attention/caring....
yea, i love my alkie brothers, but i set LIMITS....
when my brother got stabbed by a friend of his (both drunk).....I didn't know till he showed up at my house all bandaged in his shoulder and he obviously was helpless to do certain things....i helped him....but i was REAL careful to let HIM take responsibility for his life.....the stabbing caused him to not be able to work....he blew his savings on vodka and his cell phone was due.......I told him "deal....its your bill...." Oh yea, i had him over for dinner b/c he could not really cook w/one arm and he was in pain.....i helped him some....with the BASIC needs..............cell phone??? cut off---non payment...............he asked me for a loan to pay his cell.....i needed my money for MY bills.....i did not pay his cell........i let him suffer the consequenes for getting drunk and fooling aroudn with his friend and getting stabbed...............he screwed up??? he can learn from it.......i let him eat over my house..........i let him use my washer to wash his clothes b/c he need clean clothes to work what work he could do........but I took care of ME FIRST......
I hope this shed some light for you...........i also hope that you see that if you drop you, noone else is gonna pick up your "load"....why are you , at the cost of your needs, picking up "his load"????
the meets and steps and a good sponsor will show you , why you are "settling" with this and not able to set healthy boundaries....there has to be something in your past , a boundary, issue that was not taught to you, and thus this problem now.........step 4 will help you define what boundary issues you have and how to work them out....
Rosie (and everyone else), thanks so much for taking the time to reply, Rosie I'm not sure if some of your questions were rhetorical or literal so I will answer. Al anon is VERY NEW to me, I have been to face to face meetings, I have no idea how to get a sponser, I have only read the 12 steps out of his materiels and am also reading daily reflections from al anon. I joined the step board but can't really figure out what step they are on, I am on step one, I guess, admitting I am powerless. I also say the serenity prayer to myself whenever I start hyperfocusing on him..... I don't know how to temper boundaries with basic human kindness....after being loud and keeping me up at 4:00 a.m.the other night, I spoke with him later and he apologized and has been much quieter. He does a lot for me as well and I am happy to help him however I can but realized I shouldn't do it all. I was paying the website bill online because I set up the website and know all the passwords and he has no idea how to even log into a computer. he would like to learn, we just havent' had time yet. He brings me my favorite foods from the store and brings me flowers and is much better to my children than their real father ever was so to not do something for him that I can do just seems mean and uncalled for in most instances. (why would I not look up his business account balance while he is out pumping up the tires in my childrens bikes). I came here and to ftf al anon when things started getting a little off so I do not think I've gotten as sick myself as I would have had I waited. I do take good care of myself (and, yes, everyone else). I pray every day, I journal, swim, run, lift weights, eat right, visit with my friends, lay in my hammock out back, etc. To be honest, I didn't even realize that al anon was a PROGRAM for US until about two days ago , I though it was just a support group so please forgive my niavitee (sp?) and ignorance on so many of the issues. I really appreciate those who respond and the patience you have practiced with me.
My questions were literal.....i look at a post and answer that person as though we are the only ones in a room
yea, some of it sounds "like rhetoric" b/c the program has the SAME benefits for everyone...we all have the same need for support, validation, finding ourselves and loving ourselves..
yes, recovery is a personal and "person by person" thing, but the steps are the same.....needing a sponsor is the same....needing to go to meets are the same......
If you keep hangin out here you will get a grasp by reading other's posts, kinda how to get started...
i got a sponsor.......got all the 12 steps books and literature on codependency i could.....got all the alanon literature.and with my sponsor I worked it and worked it and RE work it all the time now....i attend meets as many as i can....i post and ANSWER posts as part of my working my program....
as to his web site, what ever you do is your choice....not my business....i am just giving my experience and strength and hope...
we all have a saying "take what you can use and leave the rest"....
I invite you to use what i posted that works for you and to dump /throw away the rest.......i just gave you my take based on reading your post......HOW you work your program is totally your choice and that is why God gave us choice and free will and boundaries.....program is not going to push it self on you....we, here, are not going to push our esh on you....we respect your boundaries...we we read each others posts and we respond basically on the principle of "well this is what i did or what i would do" mind set and leave you to work the program/not work the program as you decide......it is your life....noone would tell you what to do here....you reached out...asked ???S and i gave it my honest take...that is all.....
hanging out with us will give you an idea as to how to work it if you want to work it......i would surf the posts and pick up on someone i can relate to (preferrable same sex) and grab that person as a sponsor.....if they say "NO" don't take it personal, they may not be able to give you what you need.......i did that...i found all good sponsors, even the one who disappointed me and dumped me was mostly good...taught me some good stuff.....
