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I am a newcomer. My problem is not being an enabler, but the other extreme. I am so ready to stop obsessing over my A's life that I have been told that I might be taking it too far. I have tried to detach from her bad decisions. She is currently clean. She was going to meeting daily and tried to go back to school. I was supportive of her decision to do that and since I agreed, I did whatever I could to help.
Recently, she has stopped going to meetings daily because she has decided to get a part time job instead of going back to school. She has made this decision in the past and has agreed it was part of what led her to relapse, but this time (just like last time) she says things are different.
I am supportive of her decision to do this and I am not asking her not to or yelling at her like I would have in the past thanks to al anon. I am just letting her live her life on her own terms. The flip side of that is I have that same right. I have completely detached from that situation which means that I basically ignore it. Although I support her right to make that decision, I do not agree with it, so I do not do anything to help such as give her rides back and forth to work or buy her the slip resistant shoes they use in fast food restaurants. Also, since she now has money, I no longer feel the need to pay her half of the living expenses. This completely wipes out what little money she makes, but she says she does not care. I feel this will become a problem in the future, but that is another story.
Bottom line is that I have spoke with several al anon members and some say that I have a right to not make comfortable behavior that I believe is hurting her (enabling) and some say that I am being an unsupportive, controling husband.
I need more input on the matter before I can decide how I feel because I feel I am doing the right thing by detaching from this situation, but I believe that it may be hurting my marriage.
This is a forum for us to share thoughts and ideas, so, even though officially we in alanon don't give advice, you are asking for personal opinions so I will give mine.
I can relate to you being fed up and perhaps detaching too much in your marriage. I have been accused of the same thing, LOL, I have been told by old timers in alanon that there is a difference between detaching from my A, and detaching from the reality surrounding me and having an "anything goes as long as it doesn't affect me" attitude.
To this last allegation I plead GUILTY, LOL.
If my A wanted to get confused about what is food and what is not food, I would let him. Once my husband got really really drunk at one of those restaurants that serve peanuts in buckets and got confused and began to try to eat the peanut shells in the "waste" bucket. I let him, knowing he had good dental insurance if he cracked a tooth and good medical coverage if he got an intestinal blockage. His actions of eating garbage didn't affect me so I stood by and ignored him while i contined to enjoy my own dinner. I figured that he needed to suffer the consequences of getting totally wasted at a restaurant. However, when it came time to trying to drive drunk I snatched the keys from him since I would be dying with him if he got in an accident due to drunk driving, that affected me so I took action.
I still stand by my actions, i think that short of shooting themselves or any other possbily fatal actions, that drunks need to suffer the consequences of their actions, but I also "take care of me" and make sure that I am not hurt in the process.
From your post it doesnt' sound like you have completely detached from your wife as you think you have, someone who is worried about hurting their marriage has not totally detached. I don't worry about such things, I take whatever actions I deem necessary at the time and let the chips fall where they may as concerns my marriage, which is nearing the two decade mark.
Your letter sounds more controlling then detaching. Would you continue to pay more of your wife's living expenses IF she chose to spend her days doing somethign you approve of like school rather than work? That is CONTROLLING, not detaching.
Would you buy your wife needed shoes for school? If you can afford to and you would, but will NOT buy them for her work than that is controlling and not detaching.
Detaching means that you live your own life and let her live hers, within boundaries of course. If you can afford to and at one time felt you should support your wife financially on the merits that she is your WIFE, then you should continue to do so, wether she spends her days working or studying.
It sounds more like you want to treat her like a teenage daughter. IF she "behaves" in a way you approve of then the wallet is open, if she "misbehaves" and doens't toe the line in your eyes, the wallet is SHUT.
I cook dinner for my A husband everyday because when we first got married I decided that is somethign I was willing to do as part of married life. I cook dinner whether he is drunk or not, whether he drinks that day or doesn't. I do it as it is part of being married for me, I dont' use it to control him and not cook dinner on days he drinks. i do this even though I strongly disapprove of his drinking at all, and even more so getting drunk.
What I have done is simply decided on firm boundaries on what I will tolerate, and they are pretty standard in a marriage. I will NOT tolerate infedelity of any kind, I will NOT tolerate physical or verbal abuse, and I will NOT tolerate him not paying his share of the bills. As long as he meets those standards, I pretty much live and let live.
Not my idea of marriage, but the best that the A husband is able to accomplish being a sick A.
Treat your wife like your daughter and she will do what most daughters do..."grow up" in this case emotioanlly and LEAVE "daddy" husband who is holding her back and using money to manipulate and control her. Most adults will only tolerate being financially manipulated and controlled for a short time, until they are able to make "other" arrangements such being able to make it on their own, or with someone else's help .
Detaching and not enabling, but supporting the alcoholic in their recovery are fine lines to draw. I think Blythe did a good job in describing this. I'll just add my two cents worth.
You said, "I have completely detached from that situation which means that I basically ignore it." In my opinion this is not detachment this is control. Detaching with love would be buying her the slip resistant shoes and other things she needs for her job. You are still her husband and have responsiblilites as a husband.
"I am supportive of her decision to do this and I am not asking her not to or yelling at her like I would have in the past thanks to al anon. I am just letting her live her life on her own terms." This is detachment with love as I see it, it sounds like you are trying to do your best and not enable her while at the same time detach and take care of yourself. I think these are both noble accomplishments and you should pat yourself on the back for that. Just watch the inclination to treat her like you would a child, she must suffer from her own consequences.
Take what you like and leave the rest. Good luck on your journey. Java
Hi CarlosNA- I do not have any ESH just want to say that this is really really hard stuff and I see you trying and trying hard to sort it all out and I commend you on that. This program demands ALOT from us. Its really hard to change! Its hard to adjust ones perspectives, too.
I felt like I had to totally "ignore" my marriage but it was also a very very abusive one on many levels. We did divorce in December 2008 and I thank my lucky stars I got out alive and in one piece. We are all in very different kinds of circumstances and marriages. We had not lived together for 4 years when we divorced.
All I can say is to try to chill out and be gentle- on you, on her, on the whole situation. Harshness never helps and my best thoughts and prayers are with you- this is not easy stuff at all! hugs, J.
You said, "I have completely detached from that situation which means that I basically ignore it." In my opinion this is not detachment this is control.
-I dont understand this word controling. If I ignore this job and choose to live and let live, what exactly am I controling. My understanding of controling would be to tell her she cannot have the job. I am trying to understand how to arrive at this opinion.
Detaching with love would be buying her the slip resistant shoes and other things she needs for her job. You are still her husband and have responsiblilites as a husband.
-Also, I dont understand how involving myself by buying the shoes is detaching. I believe that would be more like enabling because it is doing for others what they can do for themselves. Where am I going wrong here?
-I do have responsibilities as a husband and I believe they are to help provide for my wife when she is not able to do so for herself. I really am having a hard time wrapping my mind around these things and am trying to look at it from another perspective.
Thank you Blythe. Can you please try to clarify some things for me.
Your letter sounds more controlling then detaching. Would you continue to pay more of your wife's living expenses IF she chose to spend her days doing somethign you approve of like school rather than work? That is CONTROLLING, not detaching.
- Here, let me clarify myself. Where I am from, a lot of people who have long standing committed relationships refer to each other as husband and wife even though they are not officially married. I dont know if that makes a difference. One of my reasons for doing this too, is that I have a problem with the whole "becoming one" thing. I feel like I earn my income and should do with it only what I feel good about. I didn't know that was being controling of others, but if so, then I don't see a problem with it. Maybe this would make more since if I addressed her as my girlfriend since then it would be clearly my money and not ours. To answer the question, I paid her expenses because she had no money and now that she does, I stopped. What she does with her time has little to do with this.
Would you buy your wife needed shoes for school? If you can afford to and you would, but will NOT buy them for her work than that is controlling and not detaching.
- Again, if this is the case, then I see nothing wrong with being controling. I guess its controling what happens with my money and not controling another adults decisions that I am ok with. For example, if she needed new high heels to work as a stripper, my answer would be no, but I could not forbid her from doing that because she is grown. I just choose not to participate. If she needed new shoes for jogging, then I would say yes if she could not buy them herself.
Detaching means that you live your own life and let her live hers, within boundaries of course. If you can afford to and at one time felt you should support your wife financially on the merits that she is your WIFE, then you should continue to do so, wether she spends her days working or studying.
- I agree, however, it was on the merits that she had no money and not solely on the merits of being my girlfriend. I feel like my money and time is still mine in this situation. I share some as I see fit. I guess if she was my wife and we "were one" the money and time would have to be shared equally regardless of who it used to belong to and I would just have to go along with whatever she wanted to do with it in order to not be controling. I guess that is why we both choose to not get married. We like freedom slightly more than togetherness.
It sounds more like you want to treat her like a teenage daughter. IF she "behaves" in a way you approve of then the wallet is open, if she "misbehaves" and doens't toe the line in your eyes, the wallet is SHUT.
- Pretty much. It sounds bad, but I agree with this 100% because since we are not married it is my wallet and this sounds to me like having good boundaries.
I cook dinner for my A husband everyday because when we first got married I decided that is somethign I was willing to do as part of married life. I cook dinner whether he is drunk or not, whether he drinks that day or doesn't. I do it as it is part of being married for me, I dont' use it to control him and not cook dinner on days he drinks. i do this even though I strongly disapprove of his drinking at all, and even more so getting drunk.
- I agree with this. I will continue to take care of the groceries regardless. The problem we run into her is that she likes to go out to nice places and have me pay for it all the time. I will on special occassions, but not often.
I agreed to provide food as a part of "married life", but I also agreed to be intimate with her. Funny how one can be unconditional with regards to drunkeness and the other isn't.
What I have done is simply decided on firm boundaries on what I will tolerate, and they are pretty standard in a marriage. I will NOT tolerate infedelity of any kind, I will NOT tolerate physical or verbal abuse, and I will NOT tolerate him not paying his share of the bills. As long as he meets those standards, I pretty much live and let live.
Not my idea of marriage, but the best that the A husband is able to accomplish being a sick A.
Treat your wife like your daughter and she will do what most daughters do..."grow up" in this case emotioanlly and LEAVE "daddy" husband who is holding her back and using money to manipulate and control her. Most adults will only tolerate being financially manipulated and controlled for a short time, until they are able to make "other" arrangements such being able to make it on their own, or with someone else's help .
- I see your point, but I dont think it applies to our situation in my opinion. I pray that she grows up. If she does, I dont think she would want to leave after seeing that I am not holding her back, but it is her actions that are holding her back. I believe that if she doesn't grow up, she may leave to make other arrangements with someone else that will enable her instead of saying no when they find that it is apprioriate to do so.
- Thank you so much for your long and thoughtful post. I really need this kind of back and forth from several people to help me make sense of everything. In the future when I post on the board, I will refer to her as my girlfriend to avoid any confusion that this cultural custom causes. Thank you again. I am so glad that I found this board.
I can certainly understand your feelings. I have gone through much of the same. It is very hard and you sound a lot like me at the time. I wanted to do the right thing in every situation involving my A, using the program as a guide, yet I would continue to second guess myself. I talked to some members of my Al-Anon group, I came to this board, and I read all the information I could obtain on the subjects. It took me several months for everything to finally soak in for me. The situations and decisions you are dealing with now, as mine were, are not "cut and dry", not easy. Sometimes I would over think my decisions and choices. That was good and bad. On one hand I knew I was not taking the problem lightly, and on the other hand I had second thoughts about actions I had taken. Every decision I made was not right as I look back, but at the time I felt they were. It sounds like you are having some of the same emotions I had.
The main thing I see in your post and your follow-ups is a man that wants to do the what is right. You are using this program to make the best decisions for you. Nothing about dealing with an A is easy, you want to be fair, yet not having a feeling of enabling. That Carlos is a fine line, and only you can determine what is best for you and ultimately the A in your life.
Trust your HP, and ask him for guidance, and continue to work the Al-Anon program. By doing that I feel sure your answers will come. Mine did. Yours will.
HUGS, RLC
-- Edited by RLC on Saturday 16th of May 2009 12:19:49 PM
I go with Blythe on this one......Print her post, LOL...Its great....Its not that you don't love them, you are just letting them reap what they sow.....
I support and encourage ANY loved one in recovery...Cheer them along....They stop??? They are on their own.....I let them reap what they sow.....
I support and encourage ANY loved one in recovery...Cheer them along....They stop??? They are on their own.....I let them reap what they sow.....
Wow, this is exactly how I feel. Thanks.
RLC, I will continue to learn about the program and wait for the answers to come. In the meantime, I learned in another program, when in doubt, do nothing.
I don't know the answer. However, my personal goal is to treat others the way I want to be treated, with respect. In the end, I need to be okay with myself and MY behavior, with no regrets. I don't need to add to my list of amends.
Perhaps it will help to ask yourself what your motives are. With either choice, if your motive is to change her in ANY WAY, it is controlling, manipulative and self-seeking. If your motive is to take care of yourself, to protect your serenity, and you have no expectations of her whatsoever, it is a healthy motive.
Ask HP to guide you to do His will.
I'm glad you are with us.
__________________
The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
Thanks for clarifying because the fact that you are not married really changes EVERYTHING. I am not judging your choices, they are yours to make.
Marriage is like starting a business with someone, it is a LEGAL contract to share both assets and liabilities. This is a legal issue, in the eyes of the law, marriage has nothing to do with love, it is simply a business contract to share assets and liabilities.
Since it is a contract, there is a LEGAL and MORAL obligation to share resources and assets (money and things) so, to withhold those things is wrong and a marriage mate can be held legally accountable. Although it is rarely enforced, you can sue a marriage mate for "failure to support" if they withhold their resources (money) from the marital union. In other words, if I won the lottery and moved into a mansion and didn't give my husband a penny, even though he owns a home and works and has his own money, he could sue me for half of it and I would be forced to pay.
For personal reasons, some people choose out of PERSONAL choice to share their assets with someone for a period of time without a legal contract (marriage). This relationship has no legal or moral responsibilities unless minor children are involved. Both parties freely enter into it and can also leave it at any time.
If a person has NOT entered into a legally binding contract with someone (a marriage) they really have no obligation to share their resources and assets with them, so it is NOT controlling to withhold them. This is often the purpose of living together without the benefit of marriage, to be able to withhold assets and resources as they see fit and only share them at their whim.
So I don't think you are controlling at all to only buy your girlfriend only what you approve of buying, since you have no obligation to buy her anything at all. You also have no obligation to support her, you can do so at your whim and that is not controlling, since it is the nature of living together without the benefiit of being married. For many people that is the WHOLE POINT!!! They want to hold on to their assets and resources and only share them when they choose, they want no obligation to do so.
Thank you for clarifying and I now understand your position entirely.
Yeah, I guess that was kind of the whole point in my decision of never getting married or having kids. As you can see, I am not the best at compromising and these things force you to do that. Falling in love with an addict kind of solidifies the need to keep things seperate.
We are both starting to get older and at some point, saying this is my girlfriend/boyfriend starts to sound childish and since we are both committed to monogamy, we wanted to get rings to put others on notice.
Now I am starting to think it's not the best idea (some of my friends have told me this too). I think it would hurt her if I took the ring off, so I will not change midstream, but if she leaves me again, I will not use the term marriage in vain in the future.
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