The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I know that Alanon is a program for people who love an alcoholic. Or as the reading states, there is a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend. This implies love, but how many of us really hate alcoholics?
As a sober alcoholic myself, it's hard for me to hate alcoholics, but I do find myself harboring resentments at the alcholic behavior. The one thing guaranteed to push my button is the dishonesty. I know what alcoholics do... they drink, they get drunk, they cause lots of problems for themselves and those around them. They also lie. A lot. I guess this one hits me closer to home - I really do have a problem with liars, especially those that just keep on even after they've been caught. Sometimes it's the disease doing the lying, but... sometimes the person lies stone cold sober.
I got to deal with this on both sides this past weekend. I spent some time with a member of my AA home group who has always been a bit of a pompous ass. Nothing new about that - in new-timers or old-timers. The problem is, he acts like an oldtimer when there's times his sobriety is measured in hours rather than years. He wants to be respected with the oldtimers... he can drop names with the best of them, cite chapter and verse of "old so-and-so God rest his soul used to say....", when I know he had a snootful before the meeting.
The other side is, I also was around a person who has been in Alanon as long as I have, who came out with some very ugly hatred of alcoholics - and from what I could tell, hatred of AA and the 12 steps, even though he is a long-term Alanoner.
It was this combination that taught me a few things. I can't explain why, but I found myself growing more tolerant of my long-time acquaintance with the short term sobriety. I didn't butt heads with him, I didn't feel sorry for him or look down on him, I didn't roll my eyes when he talked about how long he had been around the program. I've been praying for him for quite some time. It hasn't changed him, but it has changed me. I wasn't looking forward to being around the guy, but it turned out to be a non-issue. I feel like I've made my peace with him, even if he doesn't know it.
As for the alcoholic hater... that person has other issues. But I do know people in Alanon who want to not just vent, but want to hurt back at their alcoholic... or even at all alcoholics. It gives me a new perspective on my ex-wive, whose primary alcoholic was her bitter, hyper-critical mother. She succumbed to the disease before my ex ever made any kind of peace with her, and I feel that many of the problems in our relationship - I was already sober at the time - came from her projecting her issues and resentments toward her mother onto me. Why me? I was an alcoholic, and I said so.
The AA Big Book calls resentment "the number one offender". Resentments rarely stay contained. They are often the product of frustration because we are unable to deal with the person we resent. If we can't communicate with our A, the resentment spills over into our other relationships. This is how we Alanons can hurt other people even if we're not the one with the drinking problem. I've also heard that resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. The person we harbor so much venom for may not be affected, or even aware - but the venom poisons ourselves as long as we keep it inside. There's only one thing to do with poison... spit it out! And then let it go.
It was a very interesting weekend. Found new friends in the program, rediscovered some old friends. Made some peace with an old "nemesis"... and I guess I have somebody new to pray for.
I don't hate alcoholics, but I did go through some periods of "hate" for my AW during the worst years.... I think - it's part of the process.... we get some "hate" mixed in with the worry, fear, etc., but it doesn't last long.... I mainly wanted my A to get better, and it was mostly frustration on my part, when she didn't do it in MY time.....
Today - I don't hate alcoholics, but I DO choose to stay away from anyone who drinks to excess.....
Take care Tom
__________________
"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Barisax____I really do have a problem with liars, especially those that just keep on even after they've been caught. Sometimes it's the disease doing the lying, but... sometimes the person lies stone cold sober.
To me this is a deal breaker!!! Lie to me?? I don't trust anymore....I have had one betrayal after another for decades I am 62 and I can't add them all...Drunken liars...Sober liars....just Lying and BROKEN promises, one after another.....TRUST is a huge issue to me....Once my "hesitent" trust is broken?? It takes forever to regain it if it is regained at all.........I have NO time for folks I cannot believe and trust.......
Today - I don't hate alcoholics, but I DO choose to stay away from anyone who drinks to excess.....
Take care Tom
YES!!!! If I even suspect it, I am "outta there".....I can have some compassion for their addictive disease, but I damn sure am not going to let it impact me.....I stay away from them....Pray for them but at a distance...I have had too many heartaches b/c of them....
One of the first things that was somehow able to creep past the fog that was my consciousness when I came into program was that my Higher Power talks to me, constantly if I listen. And that the voice of my Higher Power often reaches my ears from my fellows in Al-Anon and AA.
I think that hit home for me the most when very early on I began to repeat things I was hearing and learning in the program to people with less time than me. Things would come out of me that I would later go...Wow! I needed to hear that myself...and I said it!!!! I would talk about working steps I hadn't worked yet. Letting go and letting God when I still had things in a death grip. I sometimes felt hypocritical about it. But those "old timers" around me then would ask me why. Why should I feel like I shouldn't pass on what I am being taught, even if I haven't completely learned it myself?
Now this might not work too well if what I am passing on is how to build a rocket, but a 12 step program is not rocket science. Its principals are truly simple. Maybe not so easy to put into practice...but simple in concept non the less.
People benefited from hearing what I was benefiting from.
This helped me so much to look pass the messenger and listen to the message. It is surprising how much I can learn from someone I inwardly deem "unworthy" of listening to, when I stop rolling my eyes, put my personal judgment of how well I think the other person is working his or her program aside and listen on the chance that my HP may have something to say to me today.
The old saying "You can't judge a book by it's cover" is so true.
Quote (I didn't roll my eyes when he talked about how long he had been around the program.) Quote
This part of your post hit home for me. There is a HUGE difference between being "around" the program and "In" the program. I have met a ton of people in both AA and Al-Anon that are "around" the program but not "in" the program. I have huge admiration for the ones that are "in" the program both AA and Al-Anon and just as much hope for those that are only "around" the program.
These past few weeks have taught me how important it is to stay "IN" my program and let the others decide where they need to be.
__________________
Everything I have ever let go of has claw marks all over it.
andrea quote: "Acceptance and understanding is all we can do, we have to work on ourselves because we can not change anyone else."
wow, andrea... i really do commend that attitude, but say with all honesty - i am no where near there.
i resent the loss of my mother, who's still somewhat alive though a mere shadow of herself. i resent her and the whole thing. i know that you are coping with real grief for the deceased, and believe me, i am afraid of when i will be in your shoes. i only know that i grieve daily for what i don't have and i AM angry with her for leaving me.
There are people I dislike, but I don't know if it has anything to do with their alcoholic status. I enjoyed my drunk uncle. He died of the disease. I hated how my mother and grandmother treated him (totally focused on him to the exclusion of life, constantly yelling at him, "talking" to him...ya know, how us alanons work befre recovery?)
There are people in AA who I enjoy. But not because they are in AA. Might be that is where I met them, but I like them only if I like them. Same with alanons.
I despise my ex but not because he is an addict. It is because of who he is. And the addiction part of him I learned to accept with the help pf this program. It was the sociopath abusive side of him that I just couldn't accept.
So, for me, I never put much thought into if I like them because or depsite their alcoholic standing. Only if they are a good and funny person.
edited to add: I have held resentments against AA's and even the AA program. More so AA's. I have come to realize that I don't like those people in any setting. And that being in AA or alanon does not make one healthy (me included). So, I have let go of the AA resentment. Now, if I don't like someone in a meeting, I see it more as a personal judgement and not a sweeping generalization....hhmmmm, maybe I still have some work to do....LOL
-- Edited by serendipity on Tuesday 12th of May 2009 07:08:07 AM
Hello everybody! I have been quietly sitting in the background reading all your words of wisdom and soaking it all in. I am crying now after your posts, but the tears are mixtures of sadness and gratefulness. Sad for the time lost these past years with my AW and grateful for all the love and caring that everyone on this board is just busting at the seams! I know I came to the right place! My AW is just begining the recovery process and so am I, my codependency is in rare form right now! I was a member of Alateen at the age of 15 for a couple of years and little did I know that turning away from this wonderful group of people was the first worst thing I did in my life. Now, 41 years later I am back with an alcoholic spouse and realize I missed out on all those tools I could have been using to be whole myself. I DO find myself hating alcoholics. Having a hard time separating the disease from the person. Ok, Hate is a strong word. Resentful, out of patience, tired of the lies, tired of the egg shells, tired of keeping a smile on when it is just pasted on the outside. Feeling that it is my rescuing/resenting/feeling used, that escalated this whole addiction for my spouse. I am sure we all have the same story of Heckle and Jeckle personality when alcohol is entered into the picture. During sober (minutes/hours) she was my perfect energetic, loving companion. With alcohol, she became nasty, and violent. But I am here for the duration, at least that is what I keep telling myself. I can see a light at the end of the tunnel (maybe that is my polly anna codependent thinking) but she is still in a hall of confusion. She would rather shut the whole tunnel down on herself and stop the madness rather than go thru this difficult recovery. I tell her the words to that song.."I won't give up if you don't give up." So, anyway, this new found life of ours is brand new, just 42 days for me, turning all my codependent ways over to the will of God, and hers - 26 days without a drink. But I thank each one of you for all your inspiration that you were unknowningly giving me this past month. I will keep coming back cause I know that I do not want to give up just before the miracle happens. I will attend my second F2F in the next couple of days and keep praying that "Hating the alcoholic" will melt away and turn into understanding.
Janet
DETACH- Don't Even Think About Changing Her
__________________
Just for Today I will not Control, Enable, or Rescue my AW. I will Detach with Love........signed, Jan.
Today - I don't hate alcoholics, but I DO choose to stay away from anyone who drinks to excess.....
In AA I learned I don't have to drink anymore. In Alanon, I learned I don't have to be around active drunks anymore. I know for some, it's nearly impossible to avoid - fortunately that has not been the case for me. Ever since I stopped drinking, I've found the company of drunks pretty boring.
Once my "hesitent" trust is broken?? It takes forever to regain it if it is regained at all.........I have NO time for folks I cannot believe and trust.......
I can relate to this statement, but for me it's too much work and it's unrealistic. I am not a private detective, and I'm not God. It's simply impossible for me to evaluate each and every person I encounter as to their trustworthiness. So I have to take it one case at a time. Experience is a good indicator - if a person has been trustworthy in the past, and there's no circumstance to the contrary, they are probably still trustworthy. But trust for what? Trust them not to steal your lunch? Trust them not to stab you in the back? Trust them with your deepest secrets? Trust them to intuitively know what your needs are, and to fulfill them?
"Trust but Verify" - Ronald Reagan
"Trust God, Love People" - old 12-step saying (not sure where it originated)
I do the Ronald Reagan version when it's possible, but it usually isn't. Recovering from a state of total distrust and anger didn't mean finding people I could trust. It meant trusting God, and taking myself out of a position of need to where those issues of trusting someone to fulfill my needs became irrelevant.
This is still somewhat disconcerting to my fiance. She loves to do things for me, and that's great - but I'm also capable of doing my own laundry, washing my own dishes, even ironing(!!) when necessary. Learning to be responsible and take care of those things was such an important part of my recovery process that I have become fond of common chores, and I don't always want someone else to do them - at least not all of them. I think we've come to an understanding there. We make a pretty good team.
There are people I dislike, but I don't know if it has anything to do with their alcoholic status. I enjoyed my drunk uncle. He died of the disease. I hated how my mother and grandmother treated him (totally focused on him to the exclusion of life, constantly yelling at him, "talking" to him...ya know, how us alanons work befre recovery?)
I loved my dad. I've been able to come to that after years in Alanon. Not because he was an exemplary father, or because he stood by me growing up and taught me about living life. I loved my father because he made me laugh, he gave me so many great memories - his embellished stories, and my own storytelling ability.
My sister OTOH has never had anything nicer to say about him than "I'm glad he's gone", which she said at the funeral 37 years ago, and would happily repeat today. Yes, we're talking about the same person.
I love my sister too, but we can't really be in the same room together more than an hour. We don't have any animosity toward each other, but our differences become the focus within a short period of time. I would love to see her happy - when she laughs, all the windows in her neighborhood break out She has more education than I'll ever have, decades of experience with addiction and its social implications. She knows the score... but she can't forgive the old man, nor herself, nor men in general I suppose.
When I look at my dad, and his little-boy persona, never growing up, drinking himself to death and dying alone... and my sister (who has now outlived him considerably) in her bitter isolation - I think but for the Grace of God, either of them could be me. In fact, I thought I'd have to choose between one or the other. The ditch on the left or the cliff on the right. Through Alanon (and AA) I've widened the highway and can drive down the middle.
I know that before I was working my Alanon program so diligently it was a very common occurrence for me to live in anger and hate. "Love the person, hate the disease" would have been impossible for me then- it was all too entwined.
Alanon has given me ways to understand and has helped me put the focus on myself and my attitude. I truly am more happy when I don't take anyone's inventory but my own. I have to be reminded of that fact pretty regularly because I have so many years of focusing on others rather than myself.
I so appreciate this thread...it is a great reminder today!
A friend of mine who is in the program talks a lot about people who are obsessed with the acoholic. I do agree that it is an issue. I think in some ways the alcoholic actually gets something out of the obsession.
I know I tend to go more to al anon than to a.a. but I do think that aa has much to give people in recovery too.
I remember being brand new in the program and talking with a long time member of AA who mentioned it's not uncommon for Alanon members to have those feelings towards Alcoholics, in a blink my response at the time was and remains the same today..."But for the grace of God there go I". I meant it then and mean it now, who am I to say what kept me from being on that side of the garden? What a blessing, who am I to judge?
I don't hate alcoholics - if they are in recovery and are making a true effort. I also attempt to avoid non-recovering As. There is a person in one of my home Alanon meets who is irritating to me. When she shares I simply duck out the door for 3 minutes. It does not help me to hear her negitivity.
I have major issues with liars. Lying is the deal breaker for me.
I also had a bitter-hyper critical A mother who has mercifully died. I pray she rests in peace and is far, far away from the clutches of her disease.
Barisax, has your sister ever said exactly what she disliked about her father? Were there childhood abuse issues that perhaps you are not aware of? Did he perhaps treat her differently than he treated you?
