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as you know i am in therapy and this therapist TOLD me i had to "honor thy father and thy mother"..
my father never ever made amends for sexually abusing me my entire teen years...he died, thinking he was "ok" with everything.....he was a sociopath.....never felt sorrow for harming ANYone...not just me but his entire family....my mother enabled him because he had trashed her mind...turned her into an an alkie and i managed to lift her to God and was able to stop hating and resenting her for what she did.....
now i have ASKED my HP to remove ALL hate and resentment from my heart for ANY and ALL abusers in my life.....to me??? that is the END of it and to me that is sufficient...
But this councellor TELLS me "you GOTTA honour him too"...I told her "i cannot honour unrepentent evil"....i can give him over to HP and to me???? throw him away and distance myself from the horrible life i had by working on my program and working on LOVING me and my God..
That is what i am doing....i do not want to hassle with "honouring" someone who didn't give a DAMN about me and my needs and my life and my hope and my love and my innocense and my trust that were all assasinated by his deeds...
OH and get this!!! she says "don't call him your offender...call him your 'dad' or 'him' or by his first name...but no more calling him my offender..that is not 'honoring' him or forgiving him".....i told her the best i could do is give him over and hey!! the police call them offenders and he was my offender.....
i just want to work on me...work on my relationship with my HP who seems to be OK with my willingness to give over ANY hate and resentment because it harms ME....as a gift to ME, i made the *decision* to let go of the hate and resentment i may be harboring for ANYone......i want to just cut them off of me and MOVE ON.....
i am thinking of dumping her and just sticking with the program......i don't want to "have to" ====honour unrepentent evil==== who never even cared about the life time of ptsd and recovery he sentenced me to.......i don't want to do ANY thing about/for him, but throw him in the trash and move on with my life.....what is left of it........
I don't know about any therapist that has the audacity to thump the bible, 1. That bothers me. that suggests that there is a "I know better than you" knowledge. I have come to forgive my father. It took time on my terms, my energies, my pace. And if anyone had pushed me (and some tried); and if anyone had insisted (many did); I wouldn't have made it. Incest is the ultimate violation of a relationship with a child, because it takes the sacred trust between a parent and the child and makes it into something so ill it cannot be described. Words cannot be put to use because of this. It is pure evil. I would strongly urge you to consider getting a new therapist. Anyone that had told me that I had to honor my father and mother was really dismissing my parents. I honor my parents today by being in recovery.
I read your post and wish I could offer some good ESH, but I can't imagine being in your shoes. I struggle daily with anger issues I have toward my EXABF.
your in my thoughts shelly
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Put down the magnifying glass and pick up the mirror!
I feel like she was dismissing MY needs and MY feelings..and dismissing the crime!!! ...Yea, i can totally resonate on your post....I think HP is fine with my WILLINGNESS to give up any hate/resentment.....
and what DO i do with pure evil???? GIVE IT OVER like i did and ya know??? after 5 years of raging and crying, i can FINALLY be willing to say "ok, lets throw him away and think of GOOD things and think of the SOLUTION, not the problem and think of LOVING me and God and SAFE others...not waste my energy on him".....
To tell you the truth??? i get more out of my 12 steps and you guys then her.....I am not happy with her after this episode..cancelled my Thurs. appointment with her to "mull this over".......my old sponsor told me she tried therapists too and she said 12 steps was the best therapy......HERE i am HOME....HERE folks can relate to me...HERE i feel safe to admit my defects and my issues......thank you for writing, Tiger, I appreciate it.... Rosie
I read your post and wish I could offer some good ESH, but I can't imagine being in your shoes. I struggle daily with anger issues I have toward my EXABF.
your in my thoughts shelly
Oh hey Shelly, you DID offer some good ESH just telling me that you, too, struggle with anger issues....yea, i think us working this program which has been my salvation is the thing to do...i am so glad, Shelly that you are HERE with your loving recovery mates, working on those issues...we all got em..........hugs back at ya, rosie
Ya know....I use to be in therapy for quite some time. My therapist never told me anything like that. My father was an A and I was affected by that growing up. There was no sexual or physical abuse...just a lot of anxiety and shame. My therapist use to tell me that even though your parents did the best they could with what they had does not mean that you got what you needed to be a normal (is there such a thing?) adult.
I certainly forgive myself for my feelings toward him when I was younger. I didn't know the disease then but I sure know it now. I am not sure what I would do if I went through what you did.
I am just happy that you have taken care of yourself and do not have to dwell on the past.
I've been around this kind of doctrine before. I no longer subscribe to anyone's suggestions unless I want them.
I've had a lot of different therapists. Some of them were great some weren't. I used to base my entire life around what they thought and how the sessions went. I do shape my schedule around therapy, it is the one issue that is non negotiable. Nevertheless I am the one who is in charge of my recovery.
Rosie this is a real good post for me as it takes me back to "Newbie Time" and brings me right up to the present. Anger and Rage directed outward was the very best defense I had against others having more of my life and the courage and opportunity to trust and have hope. I got to the point of I'd rather not and when I sensed that there was something or one that just might violate my sense of being I'd shut it down with scarey anger and insane rage. I was fearful. It is what I knew best or learned best being a child of the disease.
Then came Al-Anon when I was at my most tiredness to fight "it and them" off any more. Everything and Everyone was out to get me and I was at the letting go point. Just lay down and let the vultures feed on my body...Hollywood never picked up the story and I'm glad they didn't.
Judgment weights tons for me. It doesn't just sit on my shoulders. It hangs on my heart and spirit. It makes me completely sick...completely. Although I initially objected to the lessons of forgiveness and acceptance there was something about the membership who had attained a regular character of it that I liked so much. They were beyond (it seemed) being affected by another persons behavior past, present and future. "How do you do that?" I asked. Today others ask me "How do you do that?"
I had to give up being so righteously judgmental that I could recognize the good in others...all others and myself at the same time. I had to do with them what I was doing with myself...blowing up my seemingly good and hiding my defects. I had to talk about (after searching for) the good stuff about "them" while accepting that horrible stuff was included in the story also. (just like my own). I had to ask my HP..."How do you see me?" and then listen without twitching or rising to run or justify. I had to want the weight off more than anything and so I sat at the knees of those who knew and practiced till I got it.
I don't hold myself up as the metaphor for perfection. I hold up my own personal experiences to allow me to know and understand that even in some saints there are the worst of sins and it is my sins that I hate most. I use the word sin because it is simplest...not because I was born and raised in a belief I no longer practice. I try to practice this program of spiritual recovery. Yes there were some events in my past where I felt so assaulted by another person including the fear of sexual assault. Yes there were some events in my past where I felt so into getting my own way no matter what and I didn't hear from my victims until after I was in spiritual recovery and had reached my 9th step. Yes there were victims who had never forgotten for a day what I had done with them and did not understand and I knew what they went thru because I had gone thru it myself. They were shocked because what I did didn't match how they viewed me and loved me and that is perfectly the same as what I went thru.
I have only one person from my past who has made an apology and that was my 2nd alcoholic wife. She was in program. She made the attempt and the amends as she knew best. She did the best she could with what she knew at that time and I'll bet HP saw it was good on both sides.
Today I have found the good in my "perps" and would rather smile at that than practice anger and rage because I judge what they lack as good or what they do as evil. I am not God and because of that it was suggested that I get an HP. My alcoholic addict wife had a great sense of humor and could cook up a storm. When she was gentle it was hard not to be within her aura. She was a masterful worker, very good at what she did for a living. When she wasn't high or drunk she was a loving mom. When she was drunk, high and missing she was a bitch; that from the old me. My first addict wife was also a good cook and housekeeper. When she wasn't using she was very attentive to our 4 children. When she danced hula she was enchanting...and so on. I dug for the good and lost the resentments, anger, rage, judgements, justifications not to love and at the same time came to understand, forgive and love myself. My sponsors taught me that I could never give away what I didn't have nor could I get what I would not give. I have found out they were absolutely correct.
Pray for courage to change the things you can and one of those might be first the willingness to.
Yes it is REAL TOUGH. Yes it is REAL WORTH IT. To "Love anyway" is a miracle.
Yours in support. (((((Hugs)))))
-- Edited by Jerry F on Wednesday 6th of May 2009 02:27:29 PM
I have heard how important it is to forgive those that have hurt us b/c as long as we don't, we are tied to those people. Even if they are dead & gone, we are still giving them energy if we don't forgive. It is for us, not them that we forgive. Asie from that, that's it. It rubs me the wrong way hearing what your therapist said to you & like Tiger pointed out (the bible thumping) or whatever, adding guilt to the mix & trying to impose her idea of hp/god on you. I personally dont think a lot of people/parents deserve to be honored. It's like trust, you earn it.
When I found a therapist I was willing to go to, it was b/c I found one that was ACoA and she could personally identify with my issues & therefore have more understanding for me. She was very good but I did feel like I was doing all of the footwork myself, like I was reporting to her about my realisations. I determined that I didnt need to pay someone to validate my feelings, I do so here everyday, so I stopped seeing her. If money had not been an issue, perhaps I would have gone more than 5 times but I didn't see the need or value in it.
Like Christy said, honor yourself & split ~ I concur.
The healing process shouldnt be about (honoring) your abuser, it should be about YOU.
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
WOW!!! this board and you guys are AWESOME!!! i am heartened by all the wonderful loving shares and esh i got here....my heart is happy because you guys took the time go validate me
yea, i am gonna TAKE CHARGE of MY recovery ..what is right for me....and my HP is telling me to "hey just give over the hate/resentment.....acknowledge that he sired you and LET GO....your OK" that is what i am hearing from my HP.....
some stuff is just NON negotiable , i am gonna just KEEP surrendering the "still shows up" hate/resentment and till i am THROUGH with it/him ....i see it coming...i actually see this coming where i am "done with it/him" ....i am moving on....i think of him/it WAY less....WAY less negative......the eagerness to MOVE ON.....the hunger to HEAL and LET GO.........i HAVE overcome!!! and NOW it is time to THRIVE......HP is good....this program is good.......
ya know??? the BEST therapy i have ever seen is RIGHT HERE!!!!! we are living proof that ya dont' need a "shrink" to get ok......we are proof that love and acceptance and sharing our experiences and strength and hope and genuine caring for each other can and is HEALING....
i am sooooooooo grateful for you guys and this wonderful program......gonna do my grateful list.....
today the auto mechanics fixed my bumper after i "rear ended" this gal for FREE
today verizon gave me back $40 that they said billing dept. shouldn't have charged me
today i am feeling HP's love through all these wonderful answers to my post..
today, i am relaxing with my doggies, watching the gentle rain come down and water the flowers
Rosie I think this is a real issue between you and your therapist.
What I think she is trying to say is:
When you call him your "Perp"- you are unconsciously reinforcing your abuse into your present moment and therefore unable to fully live in the present moment.
If you called him by his given name it might set you free of the past abuse even more and you would be free.
If he has done nothing to deserve your honering him then so be it- You must be true to yourself. Before you leave why not try talking this issue out in more detail.
This is just my take Take what you like and leave the rest.
I respect your honesty and your commitment to recovery
-- Edited by hotrod on Wednesday 6th of May 2009 03:25:50 PM
Sounds to me like your therapist has unresolved adult child issures of her own. Have you asked her that? Are you familiar with the 14 item laundry list for ACAs?
Sounds like she is trying to fit you into her preconceived ideas about recovery. Therapy is about the client, not the therapist. We all recover at our own pace.
Also it is unappropriate for a therapist to tell a client to let go of any anger or resentment on the therapist's timetable. You will recover in your own good time. Sounds like you are working a strong program and taking it one day at a time. Anger is like a scab on a wound and will disappear with healing.
It is the obligation of the offender to make amends to the victim. The onus is on the offender - not on you. The fact that your offender is dead does not change this.
I understand Dave and Betty's viewpoints but it sounds like the therapist isn't presenting it quite right if it's turned into a battle of the wills and it does sound like she's trying to force things that aren't ready yet. What do I know? I'm not a therapist. But I wouldn't be very receptive to her wording either.
I don't agree with the honor my father and mother stuff either. I think the best thing for you is to find a way, whatever it is to let go of the anger. It takes as long as it takes......
I don't really believe it is appropriate to bring the Bible into your therapy.
I can tell you for ME, that scripture is more for you than your parents. We are to love our parents, just like the scipture about what good does it do to just love the ones who are good to us? It shows real forgiveness to love those who's behavior was evil.
Just because you forgive the person, does in no way mean you condone the behavior!
It is for you to feel serenity in your heart for not hanging onto evil.
It is my experience that we are not to take revenge on anyone, not my job. I had a time I could have done something to someone who hurt my daughter badly. I was so ready.But vengence was not mine. I lost friends for believing this way.But it would have been arrogant of me to "take care of it" when the creator is the one who demands that job.
I guess it is sorta detachment Rosie. My AH did horrible things to me. Over the years I have loved him and hated the behavior.
What a Share :O) Good for you for lettingout your honesty and pain, and as I can see... You have the support you need to make the call, that will best suit you and your HP...
As for the Doc! I can't give much ESH there for I haven't seen one or shared my story with one... HOWEVER... If you are unhappy, then fix it :) You have a choice, and a commitment to yourself, to take care of you...
Dave made a great point too... If your Doc, has never experieced ACOA, or an A-ism, if may not be easy for them to understand what YOU went thru... Wouldn't be a hard question to ask next time you go if you deside to return... :)
Also, Loved Dave's advise about writting it down, reading it out loud and light'n a match :) What great support you have on this :) For you are blessed :)
Hang in there Rosie :O) We all need ya here... So Keep coming back :) Love & Prayers Jozie
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Dave)))))))))))))))))))))))))))) i hope it was ok to send you a hug.......thank you for such a brave share...my eyes got misty reading it....
as to me???? to "honor him"??? i will acknowledge to God that he gave me birth i will honour my parents by , with God's help, creating MY healing
as to forgiveness??? the best i can do is ask my God to take the hate/resentment away from my heart.....i renounce anything that is negative and harmful to me or anyone else.....
my HP is fine with that *conscious decision* i have made after much prayer and feeling my feelings after my therapist triggered me......peace, Rosie
Hang in there Rosie :O) We all need ya here... So Keep coming back :) Love & Prayers Jozie
bless your heart!!! i need you all too.....and i am coming back and back and back, lol....i am married to this program, ....love n prayers back at ya...hope your life is goin better
I don't really believe it is appropriate to bring the Bible into your therapy.
I can tell you for ME, that scripture is more for you than your parents. We are to love our parents, just like the scipture about what good does it do to just love the ones who are good to us? It shows real forgiveness to love those who's behavior was evil.
Just because you forgive the person, does in no way mean you condone the behavior!
It is for you to feel serenity in your heart for not hanging onto evil.
It is my experience that we are not to take revenge on anyone, not my job. I had a time I could have done something to someone who hurt my daughter badly. I was so ready.But vengence was not mine. I lost friends for believing this way.But it would have been arrogant of me to "take care of it" when the creator is the one who demands that job.
I guess it is sorta detachment Rosie. My AH did horrible things to me. Over the years I have loved him and hated the behavior.
Not sure this helped at all. hugs,debilyn
thank you debilyn.......i am considering dropping this therapist...she is christian councelling and maybe i just need to stick with you guys because YOU all can relate....we ALL have stuff we are healing from and NOONE here judges or *tells* one how to think/behave.....and yea, i am giving his justice over to God...
I don't agree with the honor my father and mother stuff either. I think the best thing for you is to find a way, whatever it is to let go of the anger. It takes as long as it takes......
yea, i ?? that too...AND what does honor really mean?? don't i "honor them" by OVERCOMING them?? by recovering??? and you are sooo right....i am asking HP EACH DAY to take the hate/resentment from my heart....if anger comes up??? i allow it to pass through me and then love myself extra.....i "look" in the rear view mirror, but don't stare at it......and amen to "takes as long as it takes"....yep....this is MY recovery...
I understand Dave and Betty's viewpoints but it sounds like the therapist isn't presenting it quite right if it's turned into a battle of the wills and it does sound like she's trying to force things that aren't ready yet. What do I know? I'm not a therapist. But I wouldn't be very receptive to her wording either.
Dave, thanks so much sharing that. It's intense.
yea, i feel like it is on HER timing and not mine....i am praying "do i change?? or stay with her and make boundary???.......yea, Dave my eyes misted up reading your post......you have sooo much courage.....glad you are here....
Sounds to me like your therapist has unresolved adult child issures of her own. Have you asked her that? Are you familiar with the 14 item laundry list for ACAs?
Sounds like she is trying to fit you into her preconceived ideas about recovery. Therapy is about the client, not the therapist. We all recover at our own pace.
Also it is unappropriate for a therapist to tell a client to let go of any anger or resentment on the therapist's timetable. You will recover in your own good time. Sounds like you are working a strong program and taking it one day at a time. Anger is like a scab on a wound and will disappear with healing.
It is the obligation of the offender to make amends to the victim. The onus is on the offender - not on you. The fact that your offender is dead does not change this.
Sending you love and peace.
WOW!! gratitude, MY sentiments EXACTLY...its about MY healing...MY recovery......i am taking charge of my recovery....IF i decide to dump her i am going to put a donation into her account and just say "hey the 12 steps works better for me......there i can heal w/out judgement, being told how/when/ to heal or forgive, or "honour" evil.....in the 12 steps i can heal on MY schedule on MY timing with my God's......thanks for confirming what I feel too........love and peace back at ya
I'm no expert, but I certainly can't see your counselor's point of view on this... Is your counselor trained in addictions counselling?? Yikes...
T
she says she is abuse victim (sexual by father) so she should relate a whole lot beter than this....she really triggered the doo doo out of me......i am sticking with the 12 steps......HERE is where i feel most validated and un-judged and accepted AS I AM....thanks "cg".......i appreciate and yea, "YIKES" i can't believe she put this on me....
I am just happy that you have taken care of yourself and do not have to dwell on the past.
Gail
ohhhh i soooo want to be DONE with him and what happened.....ODAT....with God's help, i AM overcoming....my therapist just triggered me and its been bothering me......you guys really helped me (((((((((((((((all of you)))))))))))
When you call him your "Perp"- you are unconsciously reinforcing your abuse into your present moment and therefore unable to fully live in the present moment.
If you called him by his given name it might set you free of the past abuse even more and you would be free.
I respect your honesty and your commitment to recovery
-- Edited by hotrod on Wednesday 6th of May 2009 03:25:50 PM
you know???? that is right!!! calling him the perp DOES keep the abuse in the present......yuuuuck!!! gonna change it to "him" or ANY thing that does not bring up the past in my face.......wow!! that really hit me...i do that and never thought about "bringing it into my present".......thanks for this awesome insight...
My understanding of counselling is one of enabling NOT dictating!
Not sure this counsellor of yours is doing that by taking such stances as "you should....blah, blah, blah,".
Who is he/she to tell you what YOU SHOULD DO...?
Maybe explaining alternatives available and the consequences of those alternatives would be a healthier way forward...only you can make the decision and DO what is right for YOU.
Again, there are ways of saying things and there are ways of saying things and in my opinion, your counsellor does not seem to have a very encouraging way with words.
I think I would consider the possibility of change here, though I do know that will be hard and heavy going should you feel it the right thing to do...and it would entail a little back-tracking before you are able to move forward again. However, sometimes backtracking is not the negative that we at first see it to be. It wasn't in my experience when I changed counsellors.
Honouring in the true sense of God's word is very much different to the human conditional honouring that the world understands...honouring your parents as parents is one thing; honouring your parents as fallible, dysfunctional parents who have abused you is quite different and in whatever way you can see yourself coming to that understanding and letting go, if at all, it does not mean accepting the fallibility of that dysfunctional, conditional and abusive parenting that you have experienced - in my opinion it means - learning to turn that around into an God-given-grace-filled unconditional acceptance of the limitations of a single broken fallible humanity.
There is the wholesomeness of the honouring if possible in a broken, abused humanity.
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Out of the ruin of my past I have found the fortress of myself and I know how to defend it.
Strive for WISDOM; Seek SERENITY; NEVER compromise your INTEGRITY.
after much prayer and reading your inputs, i can be at peace with me just DECIDING to "acknowledge that he broght me here"....THERE is my "honoring" AND...YES!!! I asked my HP from my heart depth to "take away the hate resentment".....and each time it rears its head, i am SURRENDERING it....
i want to be DONE with him and this and i want my life SO bad, i'll do whatever it takes to have my life....to be DONE with him.....NO MORE FREE SPACE IN MY HEAD......it is time for me to *clean out my brain*.....take care of me....
what has been so hard is.....EACH time i am sick with ptsd....or each time i am triggered...the hate/resentment comes up because "who caused this", but I am going to surrender that and just stay in the NOW and nurture me...take care of me....and stay in the NOW...because he was in the PAST......NOT , thank God, IN MY NOW!!!!!!
I see this happening because this is a prayer my HP WANTS to answer...
