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For the past several weeks, my grandson (3 1/2) has begun to speak about his mother's boyfriend. My son and his EX have been divorced since the child was 9 months old. Son does have alcohol issues, attends AA sporadically, but still cannot label him an alcoholic since he is sober way more than he drinks (and then that is in his own apartment, etc.....never around child). This divorce has been bitter, hateful, and hurtful to the family as you who have read my posts before know. Right now the problem is mine: The child talks about "mommy and ______" and what they do such as "going to circus, buying a boat, making groceries, watching movie"....lots and lots of fun activities. My husband and I are not physically able to take the child anywhere. His Daddy isn't allowed under the divorce decree (that is a whole book of a story to explain...just let's say his lack of a lawyer during divorce caused all this)> Anyway, my hurt and jealousy knows no bounds. At times the boyfriend is in the car when mom brings child here. She has never introduced him....guess not necessary just my old-fashioned sense of good social behavior. I know I shouldn't hold anything against him; she has made the decision to have him live with her and the child most days of the week, to have him in the role position of "father figure". He gets to spend more time with my baby than his father or we do....so it hurts. He is too young to understand that his little tales hurts us and hurts his daddy deeply. If I were to voice this to the EX, she would get totally undone and angry and let me know that it was my son's "choice" and his fault for all this. She is never never wrong and never never apologizes for anything. She may "undo" her actions as time passes, but she won't talk to me at all except for mundane little things related to my care of the child. So just hit me with some Dutch uncle advice......in my heart I know this is impossible to change. But it is causing me deep grief and lots of tears. I didn't have divorce in my family background and neither did my spouse. We believe in unity of the family, good traditional family values (oh heck, don't ask me to define that, please!!), and what I am living doesn't fit any description of what I want out of life, yet it is out of my control. I cannot fix it....my whole life has been spent fixing and fixing and fixing. HP has a real sense of humor.....I am being tested daily. Thank for listening.
I would also once again quote the Intervention issue of "When someone is ill they choose their drug". Obviously this child's mother is "ill". She is clueless how she appears to others. She is doing her best to "look good" at all costs and it seems like she is. If she is anything like as narcisstic as you claim she certainly isn't happy on any level. In addition I would urge you to read Getting them Sober. Some people do a great job of making it look like they are having a great time generally they aren't. Divorce is indeed very difficult. Custody arrangements can be renegotiated. I know it is tough to do this but it is also possible. There is no reason why at some point your son cannot get greater access to his child.
I think this is one of the toughest parts of the disease. What you're witnessing is really none of your business, but you're able to see how this is effecting your grandson. You're right on one thing: the stability and consistency with rules and boundries that create a structure for your grandson will create an environment where he feels safe and trusted. I do think something you said is rather concerning, though: your son was responsible to get a lawyer. He elected not to. The current situation, then, is fully his responsibility--lawyer or no. This does not mean that the custody situation is permanent; if your son elects to get sober, he will have a better chance at demonstrating his competency as a parent than he does currently. Additionally, it occurs to me that if he is unwilling to go to AA on a consistent basis, hire a lawyer for his divorce, and take overall responsibility, it seems as if he only wants to be involved with his son to get back at his ex-wife, and that's a horrible situation because then your grandson has become a weapon for both your former daughter in law and your son, and that's definately unfair. So, clearly, you have your work cut out for you. But that's what the program is for. You're doing great. Keep it up.
Wow... I don't want to insinuate that she is healthy or perfect (as I certainly don't know either way), but it honestly sounds to me like she is moving on from a dysfunctional, alcoholic relationship, into a healthier one. Your son, who has yet to accept his alcoholism, is getting some consequences for his actions and behaviors. Sounds like the child is being loved and cared for.....
I'm sure it hurts, but it does indeed sound like jealousy.... maybe a change of perspective will help you and your hubby out - are you able to see that your grandson is healthy and happy?? If the answer is yes, then perhaps she is just simply getting on with her life, and the child appears to be doing quite well....
Just my two cents....
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
((((joyoma)))) I don't have grandchildren to relate to. But I do know what it's like to conflict with HP's will.
I applaud you for your willingness to change, to see it differently. That is half the battle, my sponsor always says.
Have you tried doing a step 4 inventory of your resentments? Since coming to al-anon, whenever I get a resentment, I do an inventory. This usually shifts perspective for me and softens things.
Do you have a sponsor? My sponsor is able to get me to see things I would never have seen on my own, including things I never wanted to see! I could never have grasped al-anon concepts without using the best tool of all, sponsorship.
Have you tried praying for them? Through gritted teeth if that's all you can do today. Even if you can't, HP understands. For me, praying for all involved, including myself... is sometimes all that can ever be done.
May the precious time you have with your grandson be blessed on every level.
((((hugs))))
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The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
I wish with all my heart that I had NEVER posted my feelings about the grandson, the EX, my son, and the boyfriend. I didn't need the horrible negative responses from at least three of you. You have NO idea what is going on in this situation except what I tried to explain. I think that I have done myself a great deal of harm today by being honest. So if tough love is the concept that Al-Anon promotes for members to heal and accept, I want no more of it. I don't need the kind of criticism I got from my post...not today, not ever.
Yes, I have made a very bad mistake trying to get my feelings absolved through this website or through any etherworld site on the computer. Better that I shut up and swallow hard and accept that I am the only person in the world who understands myself and my situation. No one else can truly walk in your shoes.
Thank you to the people on this site who have helped me over this past two years. Perhaps I am too raw and sensitive and ill to take part in this organization. But I do appreciate some of you and those people need to be recognized: Jerry F, Jen, Gailey, Diva, Karilynn, Debilynn, Marsie, Susannah, Tenderheartks, and Loupiness. You have all made things brighter in my life at times when I needed it. Thank you. I think it best if I don't post again if I can't handle the replies. And today, I can't.
My A son also chose not to get a lawyer when it came to his divorce. Therefore, he had to pay the amount of child support that was decided by her, her lawyers and the courts. He also was awarded supervised visitation. I was all for that because I was afraid that he might drive with them while he may have had some drinks. That has changed for now as he has been sober for almost a year....without a program.
My ex-dil is now remarried and ready to have another child in March. My 2 granddaughters had a really hard time with their step dad in the beginning. They were old enough to express that they wanted their daddy back home with them and their mom. That was not to happen and it broke my heart. Happily, we all get along great. My son is getting married in August and the granddaughters really like their new to be step mom. I am very close if not closer than I was before they split up with my granddaughters. I will admit that when I see them show affection to their step dad I do get a little jealous. I try to think of it this way. I am much more sad for them when they express negativity toward their step dad because honestly, the only real part I am concerned about is their happiness and security. If a step dad can give them that when my son could not...I have to believe that it is best for them.
Believe me when I say this. Their father is their father and no one will ever take his place as long as he stays in their life. Even if he is drinking they love him and want to be with him. That will never change. I love my ex dil because she is the mother of my grandchildren. Without the marriage I would not have had the joy of my girls in my life.
Try to separate your time and life from the mother and the bf. It is your time when you have your grandson.
Warning: This message may not be suitable for all readers. It contains some raw emotion and non al-anonisms.
I think sometimes there are certain situations that one just cannot relate to if they have not lived it. In such situations I think it can be easy to see things differently, all framed by our personal experiences and with the intent of helping. Also, we share only small segments of our lives, leaving much to be interpreted or assumed. For example, I don't think someone who has not personally experienced infidelity can understand the pain of betrayal, the need for answers, and the depths of obsession it can take you to. By the same token, I cannot understand wanting to get into or hang onto a romantic relationship with an A whom I didn't have any marital bond or children with.
So with that said, let me tell you that I absolutley know where you are coming from and understand the resentment, hurt, and anger you carry in regards to the other man in your grandson's life. I understand because I lug them around them too. I actually experience it on two fronts. One is with my A brother, whose wife moved in (well in a 5th wheeler on the property) a new guy before the ink was dry on her divorce papers, and personally. I also am trying to figure out a way to truly accept what I believe to be unacceptable situations. My Ah and I both came from traditional intact families as well. and I have not yet completely accepted my life as it is rather than how it is supposed to be.
My ex ah has been having my kids spend time with his wacko married A g/f and her kids. They've gone to the beach and have had "family" dinners together on Sunday nights. My kids think it is a great new dynamic. They think she is fun and enjoy the stress-free environment of life at dad's house. The last weekend they were with him, my two younger kids had a sleepover at her house. My 4 year old is brutally honest about all his experiences, so he held nothing back in sharing the joy of having his hair dyed red and the popcorn and movie. OUCH! Now everytime we drive near her house he announces whose house it is (the daughter's name) and that he spent the night there. It is so hard not to have any control over the situation, and even harder not to just let loose and try and contaminate all positive thoughts he may have about her. Admittedly, I have done that some with my older two and I know it isn't healthy and it has come back to bite me. So, now when my kids say anything about her, all I say is "oh". This is progress. Before that is responded with a sarcastic "greeeeaaaaaat...."
I hate it, joyoma. IT SUCKS! (umm, that was yelling). This isn't the way it is supposed to be. Your situation is a bit deeper because not only are you being hurt by the situation, but grieving for your son, his pain and all the experiences and life he has lost with his child. Our children are supposed to have "normal" functional lives. We are too. As the sober party looking in it is so easy to see how things should be different and difficult to know that nothing we can do can make a bit of difference in changing it.
So, how do I accept it? Well, I haven't just yet, but you'll be the first one I tell when I meet that milestone. In the meantime, I just deal with the feelings I have, one event at a time and keep telling myself that I cannot change it. It just is. I am working on improving my relationship with my kids. I also try to accept the fact that this is just a period of time and believe what others whom have walked before me have said, which is that kids eventually come to know the truth. My kids desperately want to only see the good in their dad and rarely say anything negative (he did not actively drink in front of them so they don't know that part). But, there have been occasions where they have made comments that they "get it". In response to an anti-drinking conversation I have had with my 15 yr old son, he made the comment "don't worry, I don't want to end up like dad" and my daughter, who thinks her dad hangs the moon, once commented while trying to change my opinion about something "... that is the one thing that dad is right about..." Our kids ultimatlely have to accept their lives as is. It is forced upon them and I think that embracing the positive is what they must do.
You passionately love those boys, joyoma. Recovery takes a looooong time, too long as far as I am concerned, Yeah, so that is why I keep coming back. I am sorry, joyoma, for all you are going through. I look at my brother and see all that he has lost and is missing with his 5 kids. I don't know what it is going to take to make him want to change his life and get well. So, I just love him anyway and say very little. Am I mad at my sis-in-law? Yep, but I know she is doing the best she can too. I still believe miracles can happen.
I don't want you to leave this board, but understand how you may feel you need to. It would be wonderful if you could replace it with a face-to-face meeting. Truly, it is the once place where I feel absolute peace, an oasis of sorts. Free to be sad, mad, resentful, whatever... and be sitting with others who are sad, mad and resentful, but , many more who have found peace and serenity, things we so desperately want and deserve. If you could make it to one or two, I bet you could even find someone who would be willing to pick you up on a regular basis. I know your life is complicated with health and family issues and understand how the thought of adding one more thing can be an insurrmountable task. But, I hope you can consider it and know that it can make your life better, as unbeleivable as that may sound right now.
We all love you here. I hope you know that. I gotta get to work or I would ramble on more....
Blessings, Lou
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Every new day begins with new possibilities. It's up to us to fill it with the things that move us toward progress and peace. ~ Ronald Reagan~
Sometimes what you want to do has to fail, so you won't ~Marguerite Bro~
Obviously I don't have children. I do know that my two nephews are growing up in an alcoholic household. Since I live at a great distance there is really very little I can do. My younger sister has been an alcoholic for decades. I also know that my younger sister is bullied, intimidated and totally squashed regularly by my older sister who is a total bully. I also know that when I explain the situation to certain people, even my therapist, that they get my inference wrong. I think that is part of looking for support. At times I have been very frustrated by this. At other times I see that I have to go about looking for support in different ways. There are also issues I have to turn over to God. There is no question those children have a HP much as I do. I also know that both my sisters are far better off materially than I will ever be and in some ways that doesn't make sense as their lives are certainly very very dysfunctional. I have to turn that over too.
I'm sorry you have been hurt by certain replies. I know personally what it is to be around an alcoholic who destroys their life in front of you. I know also that I am very very limited. For me personally the focus daily in an unrelenting way of how can I make my life better is so critical. If i go into self pity, victimization or any of those things I get lost. If I can help others when I am doing that, all the better, if I can't I know they have their own HP and their own path.
I would very much doubt your daughter in law is moving on in a healthy way. There is no question you have a right to be "concerned" over who your grandson is subjeted to. There is also no question you have been there on so many levels for your son and your grandson despite your illness. I am certain that your grandson will have the love, stability and care you have shown him as a base in the years to come.
I remember when you first came here and the hurt, the pain, the suffering, the wounds you carried and thought you would never be able to heal from and move on from. You have come so far Omajoy from those first days.
Even now, Joyoma, I am praying for serenity and peace in your wounded heart, and hoping you will NOT walk away from this, your soul family.
I have read and reread the words of Tiger, Tom and Gladlee as well as maresie, and I cannot see cruelty in them.
What I do hear is your vulnerability and pain; and I hear a cry for help and recognition that, right now, you are at your wits end. I know what it is like to listen to the things that your grandson is telling you - how - because I have four grandchildren who for many years now have subjected me and their mother and father to this kind of thing. The grandchildren are 14,12, 9 and 7. Three of the children are my daughters and the youngest is my sons. The youngest I still find hard to take at times, then I just have to think, well thank goodness she is telling me happy things.
At 31/2 this grandchild of yours does NOT say these things to hurt, he tells you because it is what is happening in his life. He is still a baby, he chatters, and as painful as it may be to hear it try, as I did, to look at the good things he is relating. Much better he tells you good things that are happening in his short life than listen to a baby crying and discontent and unhappy and scared.
That is how I had to deal with it. I was happy that the children had good influences in their lives, though I hated to hear of what these other seemingly "wonderful" grandparents were doing and offering to the children.
In the end, I realised that the children talked about me to the other people in their lives, and they told of the lovely times we spent walking, talking, painting, drawing, going down to the beach, making buns and having "Butterflies" for breakfast....what are "Butterflies" well, Nanny (that's me) does potato waffles as the wings, a sausage in the middle for their bodies and beans or scrambled eggs for the butterflies to land on. Simple, but they thought it great and special and then there were the hedgehogs made with mash potato and sausages, or fish fingers; and the fun jellies we made in all sorts of containers to make different shapes. You see I did not have money, and a car to take them places, but I spent time and I listened and they know they can talk with me and I will listen and take interest, because what makes them happy, makes me happy.
I could not take them on holiday to Greece, or Turkey, or Disney World, however it took me a long time to realise that the time I spent with the children and the special little breakfasts and the camping out and cooking homemade stew on a camp stove, even if it was in my huge garden, where I lit a B-B-Q and lanterns and crawled in to their tent at 2am, when the eldest came to get me because the bats were flying about and it was S C A R Y Nanny. Me with my bad back, and arthritus and legs in plaster, crawling about in the dead of night, sleeping in a sleeping bag and roughing it! AGHHHHHHH, my bones hurt at the thought of it all.
They often talk about the walks in the woods, when we went looking for pine cones to make decorations for the holidays, and the fact that I let them paint my nails and put my make up on (on me - for they were giving me a beauty make-over), and the times when my grandson baked cakes and helped me in the kitchen telling the girls to go away it was HIS time with Nanny.
They often recall the four in a bed, yes you got it, my bed and the times we had pancakes in bed and got honey everywhere, and had to strip the bed afterwards. They talk about the midnight feasts that I packed up for them and left by their beds, giggling at the thought that they were having a midnight feast and I turned a blind eye to it as though I knew nothing about it. And especially the time they INVITED me to one of their midnight feasts, waking me up to take me into their room and tell stories by torch light whilst eating chocolate muffins and drinking hot chocolate from the thermos flask I had made up for them with the marshmallows I had hidden under the eldest pillow. They laugh at these things and they of course told their father when they got back to him. He was NOT well pleased. Your Nan is not teaching you any discipline. Hey, but I am teaching them to have fun, and enjoy the simple things in life.
All these things are memories they have when spending time with me and they told their father and their other grandparents, who REALLY DID NOT WANT TO KNOW and told the children that, whilst I just let them talk and tell me and express interest and happiness when they tell me the good times they have with their father and his girlfriend and the other grandparents, who see them so much more than I do.
I so hope that this will help you. Do not envy that your grandson's mother and her boyfriend or his other grandparents who SEEM to be having the best part and so much more time with your precious grandson. YOU ARE HIS GRANDMOTHER (no one can take that away from you), OMA - as I AM SURE HE CALLS YOU -and he will talk about you and what you do with him, just as he does to you about them. Just make sure you listen to that little boy and be glad happy things are happening, and make your time count and be happy too so that he has the BEST OF MEMORIES AND tales to tell about the time he spends with you. And do not let him feel awkward about talking to you, it will stop him from communicating if he senses your frustration or pain. Let him tell you all, let him be open. It hurt my grandchildren to tell me that they were in trouble or had been told off about recounting our times together. That made me so sad for the children, however they know they can talk to me about anything and that makes them feel far more secure and happy.
Dearest Joyoma, I so hope you will not take offence at anything I have said here. I am telling it as it was for me and how I dealt with the shock of listening to what they had to say about others, and was so so surprised when I was told they speak of me to "the other side". Unfortunately, they were very unhappy because the "other side" told them NOT TO TALK to them about me and what they did when they were with me. How sad is that? This show a lack of maturity in them and an insecurity. Do NOT fall into that trap of insecurity, he will talk about your times, keep them happy, do not restrict his talking, let him be open and honest and it will in time become a joy to hear his happiness wherever it comes from.
Sending you love and peace Joyoma, and if you ever want to talk, pm me if you would rather, I will respond. It may not always be straight away because I have been ill, in fact I am not too well right now, having yet another virus that is taking my strength; and I am not getting on here every day right now.
Suzannah
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Out of the ruin of my past I have found the fortress of myself and I know how to defend it.
Strive for WISDOM; Seek SERENITY; NEVER compromise your INTEGRITY.
joyoma wrote:Yes, I have made a very bad mistake trying to get my feelings absolved through this website or through any etherworld site on the computer. Better that I shut up and swallow hard and accept that I am the only person in the world who understands myself and my situation. No one else can truly walk in your shoes.
There is a time for compassion and a time for bluntness, and times for both. I tend to be on the blunt side, and I'm trying to learn to stay out of situations that require compassion first, but not always good at reading. But my blunt contribution for today is that yes, nobody else can walk in your shoes but - at least for myself as an alcoholic - I know that "terminal uniqueness" can be fatal. If I believe my situation is unique to me and that no one can possibly understand, I am closing myself off from what I need the most. When I open myself up and say what's going on, I'm taking a chance that someone who really can't relate at all will jump in and get it all twisted up and piss me off. But I also must consider that even when it hurts to hear something, it might be something coming from the other person's heart, their experience - just as mine was. There are times when I need my ass kicked, and times when one more kick will send me over the edge. I can't count on the people around me to guess right, so I have to be aware - when I'm that close to the edge, I steer clear of professional ass kickers. I know who and where they are when I have a legitimate need for their services. So if taking a break from the forum is what you need right now, consider it your self-preservation instinct taking over. Just don't make it be forever - you can always change your mind.
For example, I don't think someone who has not personally experienced infidelity can understand the pain of betrayal, the need for answers, and the depths of obsession it can take you to.
When I found out that my wife had an affair under my nose for many years, I was struck by the lack of uniqueness. After all, I watched TV, I heard stories. Infidelity is as old as time and millions of men before me (women too) have had it happen. Millions of men have had a haircut too, but it doesn't kick you in the gut the same way or last as long! I wanted to shake it off and move on - in many ways I did. I quickly found things to do, to keep me occupied - I sought fellowship from my friends and got it. But the internal devastation had no quick fix. I found not only had my self worth been shattered in the present, it had been shattered all the way back to my existence. Everything I had worked for to make myself worthy in my own eyes was traded up for that relationship. When she left, she took it all - even what little I had before. I was a baby. I had no choice but to start growing up right there.
It's now just part of my story. It took me thirteen years to be qualified for another relationship. And that relationship is wonderful. If it were to end, it would be very painful - but probably not as painful as the first time.
Joy, when I read your post, one thought kept creeping back into my mind...it is a good thing that grandson has someone who is apparently good to him, is a father figure, sees to his needs, and has fun with him. Every boy needs a Dad. While your son is technically the boy's father, daughter-in-law has decided, for reasons of her own, to uninclude his father from his life. I know you would like to meet this man your d-i-l has chosen to take the boy's father's place; I understand that.
The day will come when grandson can make his own decision about his biological father, and it is never too late to form good relationships when they include blood.
So keep on going; accept what you cannot change, and do your best to keep your sanity.
Best wishes as always,
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
My apologies for comments related to postings that I couldn't accept. I have been near the edge of everything for weeks, mainly due to my health. I am having fourth surgery in six months this coming Wednesday. And my spouse is facing drastic stuff that we don't even understand yet. Mix in my total grief with my dysfunctional family, and there you have it.
the problem with posting and writing is the whole story usually doesn't get told. For example, my grandson doesn't need a father figure really. He sees his Dad almost daily and understand that relationship. Grandpa is a father figure as well. We are subsisting in the triangle of pretense, however. I just would like for everyone in it to be adult, truthful, and respectful of the others. I probably violate my own expectations frequently. Another example, my son does not come to be with his son if he has been drinking. It is not permitted. period. So I don't know, I have pages I could post related to this mess, but cannot air this stuff on an internet site. Nor will I ever air them in face to face meetings because of circumstances surrounding the family. So when I question whether Al-Anon works for me, I guess it would if I could put forth 100% effort as some of you seem so comfortable doing. It just hasn't worked for me. I am beginning to wonder if anything will ever work again.
Cancer alters who you are. I am not who I used to be before my diagnosis. So please forgive my outburst. I don't know how much I will continue to contribute here, but I am sure I will continue to visit and read because I care about so many of you and how you re doing.
