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I feel like I have basically done the same thing over and over again - only each time I get a little more serious about ending my marriage with my A. Of couse there have always been complaints about his bad behavior, and these complaints work for a time but he always goes right back to his old ways. It sneaks up on me every time. Its an endless cycle. THis is my last hope. This time I have gone farther than I have ever gone. I have changed my cell phone plan, I have closed 3 bank accounts and re-opened them in my name and I am debating on whether or not to change my beneficiary on my life insurance polices. He will work a program or he will not get me back. He will mend relationships with my son and my sisters as well.
Do I sound like a broken record? Is there hope for my marriage if he works a program and sticks with it? Will I ever be promised that it won't happen again and it actually not happen again??? I really need a guarantee. My sanity and happiness is at stake here. I'm so afraid that I am not doing the right thing. I'm afraid that I am setting myself up - again.
its my opinion that there is no guarantee like the one you stated.
This disease will provide you with another kind of guarantee: the opposite, in fact. That guarantee is called relapse.
I would strongly encourage you to take a look at your own patterns instead of his and take the focus off of him completely and place it squarely on yourself and yourself alone by working your own recovery program (al-anon).
What are the chances of recovery and what are the chances of relapse for someone you works the AA program? Don't you think the key would be for him to stay in a program?
I know this may sound snotty but I am not intending it to be that way. Why do you think you need him to do anything? Wouldn't everyone in these rooms and on this board love an guarentee that if their A got into AA that they would stay sober forever? Sure we would!!!! There is no such thing. There are no guarentees on anything in this life. None. And making your husband your higher power and relying on him for your direction and your decisions is simply setting yourself up for disappointment and resentments.
The way to a happy marriage is to focus on yourself and your own recovery.I hated hearing that. I wanted everyone to understand how bad and wrong HE was and if HE would just change, just get sober then MY life would get better.
My A did get sober. And ya know what? Our marriage wasn't all better. It was amazing when he got into AA and really worked the program (not just going to meetings but REALLY worked it) that all of the sudden we both had to focus on the trainwreck that was our marriage. And I had to focus on MY part of that trainwreck.
Your best bet is to go to meetings and start to focus on yourself. Don't look at what he is doing or what you hink he is doing or what you think he should be doing. Do what you need to do for you. It is the hardest thing I have ever done....focus on myself. It went against everything I learned growing up in an A home. Enable, codependent, help help help the A. And forget that I have needs.
I learned here that only I can take care of me. That was a huge relief. Once I began to rely on myself and HP to take care of me, I started to get better.
Just keep commig, get to a f2f and read everything you can. Keep posting. You can feel better. It has nothing to do with him...
Since everyone is an individual, it'd be impossible for anyone to tell you whether he'd relapse or not. Certainly if he is sincerely working the AA program, his chances of recovery are good. But its not a case of work the program and "graduate". It's a lifetime program. It's changing your lifestyle, your way of thinking, etc. You can't just go to meetings and listen and maybe give a couple shares every now and then. You actually have to "work it". Walk the walk, not just talk the talk. And yes, some do that.
As to your marriage - the best thing I can share with you is what worked for me. Since I couldn't fix him or force him to work his program, the only thing left to me was to work my own program. And guess what? Focusing on myself, on MY own behavior and attitude, actually did a world of wonders for our marriage. This is why others keeps saying to you "work your own recovery program". You're going to discover some very interesting and wonderful things... and it'll all be about YOU.
Another good thing about working your own program... if the marriage does end up failing (for whatever reason), having worked your own program and therefore grown as an individual (yup! that's what happens.. we grow!) - we are then strong enough to move forward in life and even be serene about it.
Oh, and one side note. You want him to mend relationships with your son and sisters. Please remember one thing. It's not ONLY up to him to do that. Your son and sisters may not want to mend relationships with him. And truly, their relationship is between them - to fix or not. I've been there, done that... stepped in where I shouldn't. The only relationships that are MINE to deal with are those I am directly one-on-one involved in. Personally I would resent anyone who tried telling me how to fix my relationship with hubby, son, daughter, mom, etc., etc. See what I mean? Those are mine and mine alone to deal with.
Take care... and keep asking questions!
Luv, Kis
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Let your light shine in the darkness. "I can't just bring my mind to meetings...I must also bring my heart."
I have found that the only constants in my life are my higher power and change.
It would be nice if there were guarantees, but there aren't.
What I found is when I started to focus on me, what I wanted out of life, and how I could get there, things started to change.
Today my life is full. I haven't had a significant other in my life for almost 10 years now. I am enrolled in college full-time and will finally complete my degree, plus a second one! I am active in my own recovery, I attend meetings, I have a sponsor, and I sponsor others.
I short-changed myself for so many years, and today I know I don't have to settle for less than I deserve, and I don't.
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"If a dog will not come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience." - Woodrow Wilson
You ask for encouragement. "Encouragement for a husband to get sober and a marriage not to fail".
Let me start by telling you that almost 6 years ago my wife joined AA. About 6 months later I started going to Al-Anon. To my knowledge she is still in program and still sober. At about 9 months sober, she decided to end the marriage. I was devasted. But, because I had my Al-Anon program I got through it (the divorce). And I grew from it. And I am grateful for it (and yes I know that is hard to believe ). The best encouragement I can give you is much the same as what the others have said. Throw yourself into this program. Go to meetings, read literature, get a sponsor, work the steps. You working on yourself is probably the best thing you can do for your marriage not to fail. But even if it does eventually fail, as mine did, you will become better able to live your life.
The best encouragement I can give you as to how to get your husband sober is to let go of the idea that you can somehow facilitate this happening. No amount of threats, discussions, tactics, ultimatums did one thing to get my ex-wife to stop drinking. She had to make that decision for herself, and the harder I tried to make it happen, the less inclined she was to do so. I let go of that issue, and she got to a place where she hit a bottom and made the choice to call AA all by herself. An alcoholics decision to choose sobriety is between them and their Higher Power. The more I put myself in the middle between them, the more I blocked the lines of communication between them.
I understand your frustration. I understand your desire to program a happy ending. When my wife walked through the doors of AA I thought that would finally fix everything and we would live happily ever after. And even though the path I thought that action would result in did not happen, the opportunity for the outcome to happen "the happily ever after part" is entirely possible. It just wasn't the "ever after" I had envisioned. My Higher Power had a different plan. I can honestly tell you His plan was better than mine.
He got me to al-anon at just the right time. That time being, when I was finally willing to listen. When I finally understood I could not control other people. That I had to surrender my will if I was ever to have any peace in my life.
AA and Al-Anon, in my opinion, are infallible programs which offer a life filled with love. The opportunity to truly live happy, joyous and free. It is up to each individual who claim membership in either program to get what they want out of it.
Keep coming back peace. If you are ready and willing it can work on you. It can put you in the place where no matter what the people in your life do, how they choose to live, who they want to be, you can be happy, you can live your life fully.
"peace2me", I just read you post and all the replies. As per Al-Anon no one gave you any advice, only suggestions. You can always take what you like and leave the rest.
I did something I have never done. I added up the total times the people who answered your post have taken their time over the years to answer others posts. The total is 4,897. That is an amazing amount of experience, strength, and hope, all with your best interest in mind. I hope that makes you want to read them on more time.
peace2me, I have been in Al-Anon only a little over two years, I attend two meetings each week. My story starts off so much like David's. AW started in AA, stayed sober for 6mos. I started to Al-Anon after she had been sober 3mo. Since her relapse two years ago she has not gone one day to my knowledge without drinking ( educated guess ) 8 to 15 beers each day. She still goes to AA meetings 4 to 8 times a week. All alcoholics are all the same and they are all different. I know how that sounds but it is true. They all have the same characteristics. They are smarter than us and usually 2 or 3 steps ahead of us. As a rule they can lie better than us.
Guess what we in Al-Anon have the same characteristics also. We are all fixers and controlers among other things. All of them good in our eyes. Al-Anon will open your eyes as it did mine so you will be able to see yourself with a different set of eyes. It is so hard to give up control of the A in your life, and stop trying to fix his problems and all the problems he has caused. It became easy for me when one day I realized nothing I had done or tried to do to stop my AW had worked. She was not trying to destroy me , and I was not trying to destroy her, the disease of alcoholism was destroying both of us. I accepted I was powerless over alochol and the my life had become unmanageable. Some months later I turned my AW 100% over to my HP, and I started taking care of myself after years of neglect.
Al-Anon gave "peace2me", it will do the same for you. We have a slogan that states "It works if you work it", and those are not just words. The proof has come in the miracles this program has worked on countless thousands of lives.
The chances are you are right. You are doing the same things over and over (what I call my old program) and expecting different results. That happens to be one of our accepted definitions of insanity. Here is something an early sponsor gave me that helped. It is yours for free to use or not. What he told me was that, "If what you're doing is getting you something you don't like....do the opposite". I didn't like the confusion, negative feelings, powerful resentments and sense of loosing my self and spirit. I had to do the opposite which was stop.
Like yourself I tried hard to figure "it" out and couldn't....stop I tried to change her everyway I could and that didn't work....stop I accused and blamed everyone else. That didn't work either....stop
I had to surrender and do what I resisted doing. Get around others who knew what I was going thru, read their literature, sit down with them listen to their stories about what it was like, what they learned in Al-Anon and how it was now (Their ESH) and follow up on their suggestions like finding a Higher Power (HP for short) (God of your own underestanding - long form) getting a sponsor (trusted guide not even an HP) and working the 12 steps.
I read your posts and feel your resistance. I feel your desperateness and I remembered being so tired I just wanted to lie down, go to sleep and go away. I have never had that feeling again after getting into the program.
I have heard (many times) that the best hope for a relationship is when BOTH parties are working a program. Not just the A - you too. I met one guy with over 20 years in AA who finally decided he couldn't sponsor guys whose spouse was not in AlAlanon. Do they thank you afterwards?, I asked (meaning the spouses). Yes, he said.
What I found for myself was that when I went to a meeting, I felt calmer. This started very early on, maybe as soon as the 3rd or 4th meeting, when I was still very annoyed at much of what I was hearing, and it made no sense to me. But I noticed that calm, and I decided I wanted more of it, and eventually I figured out that the way to get more was to go to more meetings.
I relate to wanting a guarantee. My AH is coming up on 5 years sober, and there are times when I think, crikey, if he can't stay honest he's not going to be able to stay sober. But you know what, even if I had that sobriety guarantee, I could still fuss about "if he doesn't get a better job, we're going to lose the house", or "If he doesn't fix that car, he's going to be wanting to use mine". The common denominator here is ME and MY thinking patterns - and Alanon helps me to get OUT of those patterns and into new, healthier ones that, importantly, also FEEL way the heck better.
You can't fix him - but you CAN work on fixing YOU, and ironically that often - not always, as you've heard - but often goes a long way to improving the relationship. And if it doesn't, you're improved anyway. I love the algebra relationship equation: if a+b=c, and you are a and the relationship is c, then if you change a (yourself), c will change even if b doesn't.
Do check out f2f meetings in your area if you haven't yet - you can find links to different states' and countries' sites, with meeting times, at www.al-anon.alateen.org/meetings/meeting.htm
What are the chances of recovery and what are the chances of relapse for someone you works the AA program? Don't you think the key would be for him to stay in a program?
What if someone asked this same question about you? What are the chances of recovery if you work the Alanon program? Isn't the key to stay in program? Of course the answers are "yes", BUT...you have to want to be in this program. No one could demand you go to meetings and demand/expect you to change your life. It seems you have not accepted you are powerless over alcohol. Why not? It's the very first step!! Why aren't you accepting it? Can you promise me you do accept you are powerless and never forget it or relapse? Can you accept in the time frame I say is appropriate? Of course you can't!!
What if the way you worked your program wasn't good enough for the person asking the question? What if they noticed and brought to your attention each time you relapsed in to your old behaviors or didn't do your steps fast enough, good enough or as they saw fit?
Ultimately it his choice. Recovery will only work when HE is ready, when HE thinks his life is unmanagable.. when he accepts he is powerless over alcohol. The bigger question is, what are YOU going to do?
Christy
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
I am still getting used to the fact that there is no guarantee that my bf will never drink again. By using alanon tools I have learned to get my sanity back, but I do have bad days too. The slogan one day at the time works for me on most days.
I think that I still don't get that this is a disease. If I can guaratee my AH that I won't get drunk and verbally abuse him then why can't he guarantee me the same??? The way I look at it is this - life is about choices. I think that there are people in the world that are addicts. Everyone has their issues in life. I have to be careful myself with certain faults of my own, but guess what! - I am a grown up and I recognize my faults and I avoid situations that cause me to fall and it works, thanks to my HP. No, I am not perfect, and my faults are my faults as minor or major as they may be, but you can bet that if a problem I had with myself was causing this much grief to the person that I supposedly love and want to spend the rest of my life with that I would GUARANTEE to them that I would not place myself in any situation ever again to cause this greif. That would be my CHOICE and my HP died on the cross so that I would have this choice. He trusted me to make the RIGHT CHOICE. My HP chooses to place himself in situations that cause him to fall. He knows he has a problem but continues over and over again to place himself in bad situations. He must choose wisely for all of his life so this won't happen again. My AH made a commitment to me to see that I am happy and I made the same commitment to him - I'm doing my part so he needs to do his.
Awareness stinks, doesn't it? But it's part of the process - you have to be aware of something before you can accept it and take the appropriate action.
"The way I look at it is this - life is about choices."
BINGO. You are capable of making your own choices. You made a good one by coming here. :)
"I think that there are people in the world that are addicts."
BINGO again - this is your AH, sweetie.
"He knows he has a problem but continues over and over again to place himself in bad situations. He must choose wisely for all of his life so this won't happen again."
Right now, he simply isn't capable or willing to make the choice for himself to give you the guarantee you are looking for. My AH tells me all the time that he doesn't put himself in the situation to cause anyone he claims to love grief or pain. Yet - he continues the drinking, the verbal abuse and the sleep deprivation. Listen to what they do, not what they say. Wish I had woken up to this a long time ago.
"My AH made a commitment to me to see that I am happy and I made the same commitment to him - I'm doing my part so he needs to do his. "
The unhappy fact is that he's not ready to make HIS choice to seek recovery. For us to resent our AHs' not making this choice is like swallowing poison and waiting for them to die. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, now does it? Goodness knows I've swallowed my share of this "poison" over the years. All it did was make ME feel bad. It didn't phase my AH in the least.
The best thing you can do for your situation is to focus on yourself instead of him - immerse yourself in the program. I'm doing my level best to work on myself - and while things are getting a bit more unpleasant with my AH on a more regular basis, I'm making progress with my own recovery in spite of it.
peace2me wrote:I think that I still don't get that this is a disease.
I struggled a lot with this too. What helped me was to spend quite a lot of time reading as much as I could find on it. Information in several Alanon pamphlets is good - check out "a merry-go-round called denial" if you can find it. The "To the Wives" chapter in the AA big book, and indeed the entire Big Book, were very helpful for my understanding of the disease. And I did a lot of googling of the terms "alcoholism" and "disease". I was partly astonished, and partly relieved, to discover that an alcoholic's body actually processes alcohol differently from a non-alcoholic. In particular, a compound called "tetrahydroquinolone".... hm..... might be "tetrahydroisoquinolone".... ... builds up in the brains of alcoholics, but not of non-alcoholics. Google "THQ" and "Alcoholism" to find info on this.
In retrospect, I think I needed to do this work to get to a place where I could say, ok, I kinda get this disease thing, as much as I CAN get it; I get that part of it is that I can't make it go away, or make or convince him to make it go away; so now I can do all that concentrating on me stuff I keep hearing about in my meetings.
I think that I still don't get that this is a disease. If I can guaratee my AH that I won't get drunk and verbally abuse him then why can't he guarantee me the same???
I think you just answered your own question. Or rather, these two sentences are each the answer to the question posed by the other sentence.
The moment of choice for the alcoholic is not to choose whether or not to behave badly after 15 drinks. It's whether or not to take the first one. Chosing to take the first drink is chosing to give up your power of choice.
I can't really say if alcoholism is a disease, because it depends on your definition of disease. How it's labeled is not relevant, what is relevant is taking the steps to treat it, regardless of what you believe. For we Alanons, it's about not taking the first drink of the drunk. Does that make any sense?
The alcoholic often places conditions and excuses on his drinking. He wouldn't drink if not for this or that - doesn't matter what they are. He can't quit drinking until those problems are fixed, and of course as long as he drinks they won't be. If we Alanons place conditions on our own serenity, i.e. that the alcoholic must stop drinking, then we're in step with the disease, not the recovery.
Around here there's a reading done at every Alanon meeting. I don't remember the exact wording, but it says something like, "we can achieve peace of mind whether the alcoholic is drinking or not.
That seemed pretty strange to me when I first heard it. It's like saying "we can pay the bills whether we have money or not". But you'll find it's true, that once we unhook our fate from the alcoholic, and stop riding in the trailer behind the A's roller coaster, things do get better. A lot better.
Well for me personally I was not in a position to look for a guarantee. The man I was with did not want a program. He didn't think he had a problem. When I confronted him about his addiction he totally denied it. Yesterday I was thinking of the home we had, the way we would lie in bed, all the animals so cozy in the winter. He just let that all go. When we split up he came to ask me for help, I offered some and had some hope he would change. He didn't. No matter how much I invested in him he didn't do his part.
Sometimes making a plan be helps. You make a plan to do whatever you need to. I think much like you have been doing, making the bank account separate. You show them the red flag. You see what they do. The A who I was with escalated his addiction. He went downhill. At the same time he absolutely expected me to come running when and if he called. I did when he called initially. I was not yet ready to let go.
Eventually I was. What becomes obvious in this program is when we can stay and when we should go. The program gives us that certainity that we can take care of ourselves regardless. I have an extremely hard time since I left the A. What gets to me is that the A is well aware of that. He is well aware that for me to leave would be an immense struggle for me. At one point I had to take all our family pets. That made my struggle even harder.
Now I'm at a place where I am still struggling. Did I have to leave yes. Did I hate to leave certainly. Would I have given anything to make it work. I did my part. The A didn't. For me it came down to that.
I understand the immense loss and the immense struggle with the thought of leaving. I found it absolutely wrenching. I also found that the more I worked the program the better it was for me.
My A can definitely expect a guarantee from me that I will not abuse a drug, ever. I deserve the same guarantee from him. Period.
I can guarantee alot about myself. I can guarantee I will never murder someone. I can guarantee that I will never rob a liquor store. Yes, there ARE guarantees. If you are aware of who you are and know yourself well enough and want to do the right thing the possibilites are endless. If you know who you are and don't like who you are (my A doesn't enjoy being unsober) then you change - with the help of your HP you can become anything you wish.
Oh, I'm aware alright - and so is my A. I'm aware that if he doesn't stay sober that he won't have me as his wife. He is aware of the same and he is also aware of what it is going to take to keep our marriage together, he just needs to figure out what its going to take to stay sober and CHOOSE to do it. He has begun an online AA program and is exited about it. There is hope for him which means there is hope for us.
Oh, I'm aware alright - and so is my A. I'm aware that if he doesn't stay sober that he won't have me as his wife. He is aware of the same and he is also aware of what it is going to take to keep our marriage together, he just needs to figure out what its going to take to stay sober and CHOOSE to do it. He has begun an online AA program and is exited about it. There is hope for him which means there is hope for us.
This is not about his choices, it's about your choices. This is where the marriage and the alcoholism diverge. You can choose whether or not to stay married, but you can't choose sobriety for him. He has to choose it for himself. And if he does choose sobriety, he has a long road ahead of him and so do you. There's no guarantee of sobriety, and even if the sobriety WAS guaranteed, it's no implied warranty on the marriage either.
Setting conditions on staying together is fine, but don't put conditions on your own serenity. You can have it, no matter what your alcoholic does.
its this attitude that is the very reason why I will be leaving this forum! What I need is encouragement.
Is there not anyone out there that agrees with my way of thinking???
I'm not some stupid robot that can be programmed to a way of thinking that is not logical.
I thought that if I came here, even though I don't 100% agree with all of the al anon principles, that I could find some type of support and encouragement from someone that thinks a little like myself. Guess not.
It is all about choices. If he chooses to get help and work a program then I choose to stay with him while I work my own program. With a united positive goal and hard work and our HP these choices will cause ourselves to be happy and our marriage to work. Right now it's about him getting to a point to where he doesn't abuse (it can happen) by getting in and staying in a program (he has joined an AA chat and has a sponser), and me getting to a point where I can be married to him without constantly worrying if he will slip or not (it can happen) and ultimately this causing our marriage to be successful. I have yet to find a program that works for me, but I can assure you I will continue to search until I find one that is uplifting, postive, and encouraging. One that is for people staying together.
If I decide to permanently leave my A, then maybe I will come back here. This is the only option that this site seems to think will work. No more negativity for me!! Time to be postive and get happy and work on myself and my marriage.
You are very mistaken about what Alanon promotes. No one said leaving your A is the only option.
What was said in black and white is that youcan not choosewhat is going to work for him as far as getting sober. You can set boundaries for yourself as to what you can allow in your life, but choosing how he is going to recover simply is not going to work. Of course you can have a boundary set for yourself that says "If he does not choose recovery it's over." Just don't expect him to jump on the recovery wagon because you have conditions for him to abide by.
This "attitude" you are sensing is one that is tried and true. Many people answered your post and tried to explain to you in many different ways that you can only manage your recovery. That's all that was being said. If you choose to argue that fact then so be it. We can only share our collective experiences.
I strongly suggest you try Alanon for 6 mo. If you don't care for it we will gladly refund your misery.
Christy
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
).
... builds up in the brains of alcoholics, but not of non-alcoholics. Google "THQ" and "Alcoholism" to find info on this.