Well stormie to answer your questions would be taking someone elses inventory , and I don'thave the right to do that .  Our detachment pamphlet says I don't have the right to choose the method of recovery for anyone but myself . I try to remember that .  If he " she is sober that would be good enough for me for the time being .   What about you are u attending a program and working the steps for yourself.  we have to change too not just the alcoholic , I hope u get involved in a recovery program for yourself then u will be way too busy to be looking at what the alcoholic is doing .  good luck
maybe think of it this way    #2 nites a week in a meeting and 7 nites a week in a bar ??????

-- Edited by abbyal at 22:22, 2008-10-07

mslouise wrote:

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I do not want to take on anyones inventory either, but I can offer some of my experience.  My ex attended for months 2 meetings per week.  They were cross talk meetings, he seemed to bond and really enjoy the people there.  However, he never got a sponser or never used his call list.  Just went to meetings.  It wasn't my place to tell him what to do or when to do it as far as his recovery - that was his business, as I was happy at the time that he was going and not drinking.  I never said a word.  When he first started there he mentioned once that he had to get a sponser and start working the steps.  That was all I heard, the end of that.  But looking back - now that he is gone, he wasn't in recovery at all.  Wasn't using the program or working the steps at all.  And now I would guess, he is back out drinking, don't know for sure, but all the signs were there.  Just my experience - not all at trying to tell you whats going on with yours or that if he is not doing this or that anything will happen.  Just my experience.  I do hear some people work the program at different paces and in there own way.  Some don't get a sponser right away, some work the steps fast, some slow.  Nothing you can do but work yours.  (((hugs)))

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Thanks MsLouise for you post.  Even though I *knew* the answers to my questions, I *think* I wanted to hear them from someone else who understands what it's like living with someone with this disease.

I also knew that it would be pointed out that I was taking someone's inventory, in this case, my husband's.

What prompted me to post was my visit to my therapist's yesterday.  He is concerned about me "lowering the bar."  And I knew he hit a sore spot with me because of the way my gut felt when he stated that.

When I moved back home with my A, he had a few months of sobriety under his belt and attending 2 meetings per week.  He seemed to enjoy them, as well as get some good out of them.  I didn't pry.  I didn't ask about what goes on at the meetings.  But I did listen on those few occassions when he talked about them.  He did (and still does)  mention obtaining a sponsor, but he always has a "good" reason why he doesn't.  The latestes reason he gave me:  "if I work the steps in AA, then I wouldn't have time for us."  I didn't touch that line.  But to me, that tells me he is skimming the top of the water, not willing to dive deeply, which would enable him to choose not to drink when he gets stressed, too happy, or whatever prompts him to drink once in awhile.

I expressed to my therapist, who understands the 12 steps quite well, that while I don't obsess over what he is doing, I do feel uneasy about the fact that he does drink every now and then.  The last time he drank and then drove home.  That to me is a BIG no-no.  I am concerned that he will be involved in an accident, take a life or render someone physically and/or mentally handicapped for the rest of his or her life.  I do not want to live with that on my conscience.

Some would argue:  Well, you did not make him drink nad drive.  And I would respond:  Yes, you are absolutely correct.  However, I had knowledge of his drinking and driving.  Don't I have a responsibility to notify the police?  Some would argue no, some yes.  In my book of rules for (myself), the answer is yes.

I have no problem living with an alcoholic who is truly trying to help himself.  I realize that relapses are part of (many) recoveries.  I can deal with that. 

If I'm truthful with myself and listen to my intuition, then I have to face reality:  my husband is not in recovery.  I see him sliding downhill ever so slowly.  One day I will wake up (literally) to find that I'm back wondering if he will kill us both.

Thanks again MsLouise.  I truly appreciate your time and sharing.

-- Edited by stormie at 09:42, 2008-10-08

abbyal wrote:

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Well stormie to answer your questions would be taking someone elses inventory , and I don'thave the right to do that .  Our detachment pamphlet says I don't have the right to choose the method of recovery for anyone but myself . I try to remember that .  If he " she is sober that would be good enough for me for the time being .   What about you are u attending a program and working the steps for yourself.  we have to change too not just the alcoholic , I hope u get involved in a recovery program for yourself then u will be way too busy to be looking at what the alcoholic is doing .  good luck
maybe think of it this way    #2 nites a week in a meeting and 7 nites a week in a bar ??????

-- Edited by abbyal at 22:22, 2008-10-07

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Hi Abbyal:

Thank you for your post.  I believe I have done a lot for myself over the past decade or more.  I have gone to private therapy for the past 15 years.  I began therapy primarily because my mother has a personality disorder.  Then at some point, discussion in therapy rolled over to my husband's drinking and the effects on me and our marriage and how my mom's and husband's behaviors are very similar.

I have also read just about every book published on alcoholism and re-read them.  I learn something new every time I re-read them.  I think I could start a small library; I have that many books.

I visit this board and another board quite frequently to gain understanding, too.

I haven't tried face-to-face meetings, however.  I must admit I do have some "unexamined" assumptions about them.  I am beginning to "lean into" the idea of trying them. 

Thank you for your time and share.  I appreciate it.  Gail


-- Edited by stormie at 09:49, 2008-10-08

-- Edited by stormie at 09:50, 2008-10-08

**He still lives in denial and refuses to look at his life and his part in it**

This is probably the most frusturating part of the disease for me.  My ex when we were first together used to say "it's all self inflicted".  He meant that all his use was just hurting himself and he didn't see how it could hurt someone else.  To this day, I think he really stills believes this a little. 

As far as trying the f2f meetings, I would really recommend them.  I tried about 6 different groups before walking into the one I knew that fit me.  So worth all the time looking.  I have walked in crying, laughing, and angry.  No judgements held ever - people know there what you are going through - its very comforting. 

maresie wrote:

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You know one of my friends is an alcoholic in recovery who lives eats breathes the program. He has 5 sponsees, a sponsor, does service work, does step work, has the steps down to a T.  Yet I have to say this his life is one hell of a mess.

So how can we judge?  Certainly this man I know is sober he does not drink. Does he take care of himself, nope. 

So it is all relative.  Some people do have a program and get lots and lots better. Some go to meetings and that's about it.

Recovery is very very relative. 

Personally I have a sponsor, work the steps and really participate in a program.  Yet I'd have to say this I'd balk at anyone taking my inventory of doing enough to be in recovery. 

Have  you heard of the three C's, we can't control them, we can't cure them and we didn't cause it.  I think obsessing over their recovery is as bad as obsessing over their drinking.  Either they want it or they don't.

My friend has "recovery" of sorts. Personally I have to take a really wide berth because he does not take care of himself.  I have a huge red flag these days around people who don't take care of themselves.

So if you don't think he has enough recovery and isn't motivated its up to you to take care of yourself not dictate how he should, could, would "recover".

Maresie.

---

Hi Maresie:

Thanks for your post.

I surely have heard, read about, and contemplated the three C's.  It's one thing to know them, another to apply them.  Sometimes, I slip up.

I do not "obsess" over his mode of recovery.  I do contemplate it, however.  I do realize that I need to take care of me, and I do a very good job most of the time. 

I know he has the propensity to drink again.  I am concerned that he will not only begin drinking, becoming verbally abusive, and threatening to commit suicide and possibly take me with him.  Moreover, I am concerned that he would take a life while drunk driving.  I do not "obsess" over these concerns.  That is, I go about my day thinking about what I'm doing; I don't lie awake at night with these concerns, either.  But they are in the back of my mind.  Yep, I know my HP will take care of this.  But perhaps my HP wants me to take action, such as, leave the marriage.  I'm not clear on that.  Perhaps I'm in denial?

I do not "dictate" how he should recover.  I do not question him about it.  But I do raise questions in my own mind, address them in therapy and on this board.

Again, I do understand the wisdom of taking care of oneself.  However, I don't understand how spouses or significant others of A's can go about taking care of themselves and not be concerned about the emotional and legal ramifications of living with an alcoholic who is not working a program.  I don't claim to have the answer or answers to how they do it.  I'm just posing the question here and addressing it in my mind.

From your post, I conclude that you must have skimmed over my post.  But I do understand.  I have done the same and therefore misunderstood.

Again, thank you for your post.  It made me realize how touchy I am when I'm misunderstood.  I need to get over that, too.

Take Care, Gail

All good answers to your questions, so I'll be more blunt and opinionated on mine....

1. Two meetings per week??  Hmmm.. if this is "maintenance" of their sobriety, after many years of uninterrupted sobriety, then perhaps this is enough.... There is a reason that AA recommends "90 meetings in 90 days" for newly sober folks.....

2. Sponsor timing??  If they are serious about both getting AND staying sober, I think they would be finding a sponsor as soon as possible - i.e. within the first three months....  (finding a sponsor isn't a simple process, as it has to be someone they can relate to, AND who will hold them accountable).

Take care
Tom

stormie wrote:

---

1) Would you consider an A who attends two meetings per week and nothing else in recovery? (The meetings are "discussion type meetings, not step.)

2) On average, how long is an A in the program before he or she seeks a sponsor?

---

1) There's not enough information there to make a judgement one way or the other.  There are so many factors beyond the number of meetings, or type of meetings.  It is suggested that newcomers attend 90 meetings in 90 days.  I've seen guys just come to one meeting a week and stay sober and are still sober, and I've seen guys do 400 meetings in 90 days and then go get drunk on day 91. 

My experience:  I found the idea of being able to go to a meeting every day, or more than one a day, very comforting in the beginning.  And I still do.  I probably attended 70 meetings in my first 90 days.  I currently attend 2 meetings a week, but some weeks I make 3, some only 1.  Always at least 1.  This works for me.

 2) Again- it is *suggested* that one should get a sponsor ASAP, but it's also suggested that you find a sponsor who "has what you want", as well as some experience in sobriety.  Not necessarily an "old timer" but someone who has been where you're about to go.  It may take some time to get to know some people enough to make a decision. 

My experience:  I met my sponsor at my very first AA meeting.  But I didn't ask him to be my sponsor for almost 2 weeks.  I liked what he had to say at the first meeting, and over those 2 weeks, I kept seeing him at meetings which told me that he walked the talk. 

I currently don't have a sponsor since he passed away (sober).  Not an official sponsor anyway.  I tend to use the core members of my home group as sponsors as needed - they know me as well as my sponsor did.

I can't really give a checklist on what to expect of your alcoholic, is he, isn't he, etc.  Usually when a person is working the program you can see a change.  Not just hear about it, but actually see the change in his actions and attitude.  But these changes often don't live up to our expectations.  Sobriety will change a person.  It won't necessarily turn them into the person we think they ought to be.

Barisax