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I need some advice. I put my al-anon wife through the ringer and have been sober for 1 year after a 3 year relapse, the first two of which she never knew I was relapsing consciously, which in hindsight was a horrible betrayal and I apologized profusely over and over.
So, for 1 year I really really struggled, almost died and put her through the ringer very badly. Prior to this I was sober for 10 years. We got married when i was 3 years sober and I didn't encourage al-anon for her, not understanding that she might have had issues from her family of origin. Well, the story goes that the disease weaved its way solidly into our relationship even though I was sober for a long time before that..
I stopped the meetings (after they tapered during the 7 to 8 year period) in the 9th year. The last year was a dry drunk. I never had an affair, or participated in any internet relationships, porn sites, massage parlors etc. EVER. She insists that my "secret" nature, that which is common among all alcoholic/addicts, was some sordid behavior or affair.
Well, this past year as I was getting it together, I had to pull away and do this thing, which she viewed as negative even though she was now going to al-anon regularly. She read all the melodie beattie stuff and reads the meditations yet never gets better? She has never made any substantial female friends in al-anon despite my request that she get a solid sponsor and hang with the winners. In fact, she has no friends at all outside of al-anon either other than very, vary casual infrequent acquaintences. I've been very concerned for her. I don't think that is normal.
Here's the question for you: She befriended a MALE in one of the meetings, got involved with him. She started an emotional affair that is very serious. I've suspected that it has or will very soon turn sexual. They speak multiple times per day with the call lengths running into hours each day most days. As far as I can tell, this has been going on for 3 to 4 months. This person has a wife also, that is about 3 months sober and I have no idea how long he has worked a program.
I have asked her to stop this relationship and finally had to set a boundary that the marriage is over unless 3 things happen, personal counseling for both of us, marriage counseling together, and an immediate termination of this affair. (and a real program on her part, and a continued heavy program for me.)
She insists it's innocent, yet she's gone all the time without explanation. She is neglectful of the kids needs and kids emotional needs. Whether or not in any program, this in my mind, would be unacceptable behavior.
I'd like to show her what some of your comments about how inappropriate this is. Jeez, I thought we were just about to save this marriage and then this happens. She will not give this guy up? Any comments about what type of programs both her and him might be working would be great.
Unless she stops, our marriage is over, yet she insists that this is appropriate behavior. She needs a real sponsor and to actually "work" the steps in my opinion prior to bagging our marriage I would have hoped. But she has no other friends (due to her inability to cultivate any friendships) and is so down on me that she won't talk to me.
I have no clue what she is doing, What do your sponcers say? Have you two went to couples counciling? In my opionion, there is nothing you can do to change her, and you need to focus on getting healthy yourself. The healthyier you are the healthier your relationships will be. I am a double winner, wife started alanon early in our marriage, she then stopped, and started gambaling and using drugs. She also has had an affair. Only thing I have learned, if she loves you she will work on the marriage, if not then thats the way it is going to be, nothing you can do about it, and threatening will not help. Just keep focusing on your program, and leave the results up to god, and what will be will be. I do not think some alanon would hurt you either after you get some clean time. Be patient. And remember god has a plan
The only thing I can add is as a wife of an A I was very very very angry for many years over the hurt he caused me. You mention several times that you put her through a lot, that is likely the understatement of the year. Different people handle emotional pain differently. Perhaps she is a "distractor" and is using this "emotional affair" (who only knows how far it has gotten really) to distract herself from the pain you have caused her.
Ever watch the movie "unfaithful"? In it a friend of the adulteress advices her that affairs are always a bad idea since "they always end disasterously". In other words this is a very sick way to deal with emotional pain, although surprisingly common. Falling in love has been likened by scientists to being high on drugs, it has a similar effect on the brain. Some people who shun chemical drugs, often enjoy this effect that falling in love gives them and are serial strayers. They are short sighted and don't think of the terrible pain awaiting them and their significant others at the end of an affair.
This is a very serious situation since there are also children involved.
In my own humble opinion, you can do more than just wait it out. Since this is your wife and you suspect physical infedility you are in danger of contracting an STD or even AIDS. Yes, these are not happy things to talk about, but real possibilities.
Recovery is all about taking care of ourselvs in healthy ways, and yes, that includes not KNOWINGLY exposing ourselves to deadly diseases.
I don't have the answer, but my heart goes out to you in this very difficult situation. I would advise as much compassion as possible for your wife and how this happened, BUT, compassion is not condoning. Straying is one thing, but expecting you to tolerate long term adultery is another!
If it were me I would bring out everything in the open, as secrecy heightens the attraction of an affiar. I would attend the Al-anon meetings WITH her and get to know this fellow, he will probably be creeped out by sneaking around with your wife if you are friendly to him. After getting to know him, invite him AND HIS WIFE to get together with you and your wife. Discuss the "friendship" openly and see how the other spouse feels about it. I suspect it won't be quite so exciting when it is not so illicit.
You have to do what you think is best, but I support you my friend in taking care of yourself physically and emotionally. Enduring a cheating spouse is VERY humiliating and not conducive at all to the emotional health needed to maintain sobriety. It is very abusive behavior for a spouse to expect the innocent mate to simply endure them fooling around and condone it.
Perhaps your wife doesn't see it this way, and only is thinking of her own pain and how she is getting help from this guy in dealing with it. You must help her to see she is only making the situation worse and PROLONGING the pain. What do your children think of all of this? Surely they will eventually find out, she probably isn't thinking about any of this.
This is surely a mess and I hope you get it straightened out soon. Don't wait for her, see a counselor yourself to get some professional help to deal with this very serious problem. Perhaps you will have to set the example here, and when your wife sees YOU getting help, perhaps that will motivate her to do so also and even go to marital counseling.
Even if this is just an "emotional affair" at this point it won't stay this way for long if they are spending hours together DAILY. That doesn't sound like just an "emotional affair" if she has children she is neglecting. Sorry, but we are all grownups here and have to face facts. Also the fact that she won't give up seeing this guy sounds very suspicious. There is likely more going on than just emotional support if she is this attached to him that she is willing tiogive up her marriage and neglect her children.
Some people can endure cheating and look the other way and some people can't. Don't pretend you are of the former if you are really of the latter, the pain will become unbearable.
Welcome to the MIP family. Congratulations on your sobriety! Way to go! I am so sorry you and the kids are going through this. It must be terribly hard on you and the kids.
You know as As you do put us through alot. But relationships are a 2 way street. That's why we have Alanon. My AH put me through some tough times. But I always said that I loved the man not the disease. Now that he is gone, the rotten times are forgotten. I'm glad I had him in whatever form.
It almost sounds like this guy is a 13 stepper. I hope he is not a sponsor. My A had one. This woman was a sponsor and broke his anonymity to people including my colleagues. She's a very sick woman. I don't know what to tell you. You know we don't give advice here. But it sounds like the boundaries you set are reasonable and good. I hope she agrees to them. Love and blessings to you and your family. Keep coming back to us.
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Kitty <-- the cat
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
I agree with you that it is inappropriate for her to be having this kind of relationship with this man.
It is completely within the realm of reasonable for you as her Husband to request she stop communicating with this other man. That is a boundry you are setting for your marriage.
No matter what has happened in the past, no matter how much damage you two did to each other if you are going to move forward together you need to start working towards the goal of being partners.
But it takes you both. If she isn't in on this, there is nothing you can do about it, except keep working on yourself. Keep going to YOUR meetings and talking to YOUR sponsor.
Setting a boundry of what meeting, what sponsor, or who in al-anon your wife hangs with, or how she works her program will not work, in my opinion. That is entirely within' her realm. But as I said earlier, when it comes to this emotional affair with another man and her spending hours on the phone talking to him, you have every right to as calmly and rationally as you can, explain to her that you are very, very concerned about that relationship, and yes, you can, again in my opinion and as I certainly would---and incidently have in a way--- request a change there for the good of your relationship.
Put it out there, then let it go. Give it to your HP and work your program. That is all you can do.
As someone who was married to an a for many years, and have been put through the wringer myself, part of your message does bother me. I hear what she has been doing, but I also wonder what you are doing now to improve your marriage. The one thing I wanted from my a was someone to listen, not to judge how I felt, or tell me how I should act. I am in no way condoning an emotional affair, but all this person may be doing is listening as she works out the emotions of sobriety, and what she's been through. Even though you no longer use and are working on your sobriety, the pain of what she's been through may linger. I know for myself that I've had many "flashbacks". Talking to someone in alanon does help to work through them sanely. My a would be very jealous of anyone that I talked to , but my connection to my fellow alanoners is that they understand the pain. To be honest the hours would spent on the phone would bother me also, but if it were me, I would try to understand the connection then work on my own connection with my spouse. Working on myself instead of focusing on others, letting go and letting God, and keeping things simple have always helped me through any crisis.
Sounds like you are mad (rightfully so) and trying your hardest to control the situation. It is out of your control. Nothing we say is going to change her mind. I know I am deep in MY sickness when I go to meetings and listen for what OTHER people should be hearing.
I realize this is your marriage and there are kids involved but, honestly, there isn't a darn thing you can do besides take care of you and your kids. You say that she isn't there for them emotionally and that she has issues and she has no friends and you have even tried to tell her how to work her program (get a sponsor, hang with the winners). How's that working for you?
It sounds like you are taking her inventory and brushing yours aside (you said you did apologize....as if that is over and done with) You seem to be minimizing the pain and horror you put her through and maximizing her present faults as a way to avoid looking at yourself.
I was so addicted to my A I became physically, mentally and spiritually sick. Have you switched your addictions?
Ultimaitums never work. What are your motives? What do you want and why do you want it....honestly? There is NO recovery if there is no rigiorus honesty.
Maybe there is hope and maybe it is over. But all you can really do is focus on yourself and change yourself. You cannot stop growing and then point your finger at her and tell her it is her turn now to grow. If it worked that way then no one would be divorced.
Welcme to MIP Jimmy, and your post certainly struck a nerve with me (that isn't a bad thing!)
Wow, I'm feeling quite different from the much of the group on this one..... Yes, the situation is complicated, but it just seems to me that you are in the mode of "okay, I'm better, so now let's let bygones be bygones, and be in love again.... come on, hurry up, I'm now ready!"
Rightly or wrongly, your wife's recovery is HER recovery, and not yours. Taking her inventory, and figuring out what is healthy or unhealthy for her, is a huge red flag, in my books....
Time to fully dive into your program, your recovery, and things will turn out as they turn out.... I think you need to allow her the dignity to make her choices in mapping out her plan of recovery, just as she (and others) had to allow you yours....
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Sounds like "13th" stepping on the Alanonerrs part. But don't take her inventory, take your inventory, work your program. My AHSober and I were deemed a co-addicted relatioship with me being a love addict and him being a love avoidant. Have to work your programs. Ultimatums don't work - time-outs help.
I was so po'd when I read your post last nite I couldn't have answered it civaly so i didnt , You said u didnt encourage your wife to go to al anon in early yrs , why not , she was living with an alcoholic sober or not . then u quit going to meetings ,dry drunk stage , this woman deserves a medal in my opinion no program and she stayed ????? Canadian guy said it best for me , Your sober so she had better whip into shape --- I don' t know what an emotional affair is , you have no proof of a physical affair . U said u wanted responses so u could bring your wife here to read the replys ,why to shame her ? Please get back to your own program and leave her to work her own stuff out , letting go isn't as easy as he's sober Yeahhhhhhhh! My husb has been sober for 19 yrs early sobriety was difficult for both of us ,trust was gone respect had to be regained on both our parts for along time it seemed like we were going in diff directions but we both had a prog and people to talk to eventually it all smoothed out to managable . If like has been said if you both want the same things - to save the marriage - do what u have to do to get there , councelling , listen to her concerns and reasure her by your actions that your serious . You have a right to set boundaries in your relationship but demands never work . We have a rule in our house , we dont get to take each others inventories . If there is a problem it's one topic at a time no dragging up the past . most days it works . good luck
i agree with abby now youre working your program and wanting to tell her to work hers. yes i have compassion for you..but i have lived with an a and its no fun, while you were dry drunk and drunk she was taking care of the kids with no moral support. maybe the person is 13 stepping her, but he is giving her something you never did..time and attention! i longed for time and attention myself instead all i got was my ass chewed when i had "done wrong". and everything was wrong. it is unfortuate that she has made a friend of a man i would never advocate a male sponser for a woman or vice versa..however it may be innocent..youre projecting.. an old country song comes to mind; when her high heels hit the floor let her go when she sashays out the door let her go there's an unspoken rule every man should know you can't hold her if you can't let her go.
if she needs time on her own let her go though it means you'll be alone let her go ask anyone who's tried they'll say it's so you can't hold her if you can't let her go
If you can't let her go how is she ever gonna know just how much she needs you just how much she means to you if you can't be that strong you're never gonna hold her for very long 'cause you can't hold her if you can't let her go and if you can't hold her let her go
I lived with an alcoholic who had emotional affairs with everyone he met. I had no idea how to make him stop it. I would yell, scream, insist and more. Eventually I stopped asking.
These days when the A calls and asks for help (which he does regularly ) I am tempted to say something about calling those people.
Obviously two people who are dysfunctional are not going to turn suddenly functional. If your wife has been very very isolated for years and meet someone who seems to relate to her what else would she do but go overboard?
Have you checked your expectations. Now you have some recovery you would like to dicate how she recovers?
In al anon we have long learned about ultimatums. Suggestions are good. We cannot and absolutely do not dictate to anyone about their recovery or how to do it. Working a program is easier said than done. Of course we have many many posts here about how an alcoholic works a program. We work on that.
Many alcoholics are also codependent. Have you thought about going to al anon for you. Maybe you can think about how you can approach your wife without making it a catastrophe or crisis.
I regularly, every single day, find myself frustrated to the point of wanting to swear with different people. I do not do that anymore. I work really super hard on not over controlling, on not being over involved and on what do I need to do for me.
I am not at all suprized your relationship has problems. How could it be happy with all that you both have been through. There are people who have made transitions in relationships to better ways of relating. I'm not sure anymore we get that by dictating. We can say what we want and need and ask for it I don't think we can dictate it.
Why not try al anon for yourself, you will learn tools, how to detach, how to look at wanting to control others and more. That would be a help to you and assist you whether your marriage survives or not.
I was with an A boyfriend or husband all my adult life and I recall many many nights of wondering where he was, is he ok? is he in jail? who is he sleeping with? when will he be home? is he going to die or kill someone on the road tonight? is he going to spend all our money this time? etc. etc. I think that A's minimize the pain they cause. My A still swears that his Aism didn't affect the kids even tho the reason I moved out was that he told me I had to choose between him and my then 11 year old daughter who he had been fathering (if you can call it that) since she was 5 - and she heard every word. If that's not affecting I don't know what affecting is.
I made threats, ultimatums, etc. one time he even asked me if my leaver was broken (because i had threatened to leave so many times). I left him 3 times the last one was for good.
Every time he would get a little recovery he would get up on his high horse about how I wasn't doing anything good enough. Every time I didn't want to talk to him I must be sleeping with someone else. I'm wondering what the difference is between an emotional affair and a close friendship? You said she had no friends because of her lack of social skills. I also had no friends because my alcoholic husband moved us 3000 miles from my family and I was embarrassed to have anyone around not to mention the accusations of cheating thrown in here and there if I was gone too long. I still don't have many because I work two jobs to support 3 kids on my own but the numbers are slowly growing. PLUS I'm the type of person to have a very few very close friends rather than a bunch of acquaintances. Perhaps your wife is like this too. I also relate to men better than women because I find them to be catty and gossipy and men are not like that and easier to talk to. So there you have it.
Perhaps you are reaping what you have sown? Perhaps you are reading more into this than there is or perhaps you are right and she's moving on with someone else. In any of those cases you can do nothing more about it than I could tell my husband to stop drinking/using or I would leave. Being with an addict didn't work for me anymore. I set boundaries for myself not for him. I will not allow myself to ........ And now I am alone and happier. I think we get into a rut of being used to a certain person and whether we love them or not we are comfortable. Now that I have been away for 2 years the comfort is gone, I now feel uncomfortable around him and wonder how I ever stayed that long. I know that I love him but can't be with him because he is bad for me and that's a hard thing to accept.
I don't know if this was helpful or not but I think it's important for an A to remember that their spouse has been to hell and back BECAUSE of their actions. Then suddenly you're ok and she's not? Seems fishy. I'm sure you had your points of emotionally neglecting the kids and her and I'm sure much more and she stepped up and filled that gap. Why is it that now when she is lacking the same is not expected of you? I never got that. I was always the mom and the dad and nothing has really changed since I left my A, I'm still both parents. I know that I had a lot of growing up to do and a lot of stepping up and working harder than I thought I could in order to make things better for my kids. Sounds like you need to step up and do what needs to be done for the kids and let her figure herself out right now. Maybe this will burn out, maybe it will turn into something else but all you can do is what you can do and giving ultimatums and being condescending is only going to drive her more toward this other man. Try being understanding and nurturing and show her that you are the man she wants.
Wow, you all have been great. Let me tell you what I've been doing. I have been praying. I have been grieving. I have cried and been panic stricken. I know that much of this is my fault, but not for very obvious reasons.
Over time and after the kids were born, I was so busy working and helping at home that I my spirituality was first to go. I knew it had left and didn't fight hard enough for it. She resented any time that I spent doing anything that made me a balanced and happy person due to her depression. I played right into that because of my co-dependancy and gave it all up. My quest in life changed into doing everything humanly possible to make her happy. This was never reciprocated and I became despondant. That was all my fault and I should have known better but by my 8th and 9th year sober, I clammed up and didn't talk about it during meetings, thinking that it would get better. It didn't and I just re-doubled my efforts and burnt myself completely out. Then I relapsed after 10 years.
I have been trying to turn this over to God and it is working. Nothing with her has changed and she still calls him 4 to 5 times a day. I come home from work to her on the phone with him and the kids completely starved for attention. My daughter asked me why mommy is always on the phone with her new friend. I assured her that mommy had a lot on her mind right now, that mommy loves her and that things will be ok. She is in full fledged love with this guy. I see it in her eyes and hear it in her voice. I have to let her be free.
This is not for me to solve. God has come into my life very strongly because of this (actually he is always with me, but I fail to remember that) and there is a silver lining here. I know this is a relapse for her and I have changed my tune. I told her that I will let her move out and I will be cooperative and gracious and kind and helpful. I told her that I would be patient and not seek any other relationship. I told her that this still hurts me but that I understand why she needed to quench her emotional thirst. I told her that I wished only the best for her and if she needs me in the future I will be here and still working on myself.
I know that miracles happen and I know my sobriety is just that. The first time around it took me about 2.5 years to be fully healed and this is still happening for me. I feel that my spirituality has greatly increased because of this. Instead of running away from the pain I have stayed and just bore through it so far. My program has really been jumpstarted to a new level and my heart has been reignighted for the first time in about 5 years.
This disease is so all encompassing that it blows my mind. It is so powerful and nasty to all that it touches. Fortunately---Dr. Bob and Bill Smith wrote it down and shared it in the most loving way for humanity. I am very grateful to the programs and to all who cared to comment. I appreciate it very much.
I am so sorry you and the kids are going through this. It must be terribly hard on you and the kids. 
