The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I haven't read much about it, but in therapy I learned that a person in my life seemed to me to have all the symptoms of a'ism and therapist suggested strongly narcissism plus compulsive. wow. wp
According to Greek mythology, Narcissus fell in love with his own reflection in a pool of water, which, as was foretold by a fortune-teller of the day, led to his death. Now THERE'S a disorder!!!
I suppose one can conclude that a narcissistic person loves him/herself above all else. I am told, though I don't know since I am uneducated in such matters, that As are often lacking in self-love and more into self-loathing.
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Self love. Self loathing. It's all a pre-occupation with SELF. I've noticed it with my A, as well. And even in those deep moments of self-loathing - there is a strange grandiosity. Almost like, if he can't be the best of the best, then at least he'll be the best of the worst. Strange phenomenon.
I was explaining to my counselor how someone called me to express dismay that we hadn't gotten together when they were in town. Part of what they said was, "could I have done something differently to change the outcome?" (Although before I actually heard the message, this was reported to me as "what did I do wrong?"). I said to my counselor, it's like he's actually incapable of conceiving of the possibility that it's not about him.
Well, I don't know. I sometimes wonder if I am really narcissistic because I keep thinking I can somehow control things I know deep down I cannot!! I sometimes wonder if I am some kind of a megalomaniac or grandiose omnipotent freak. I sometimes wonder if I really think I am God or somethin'. I keep thinking I can help people, that I can change people, that I can manipulate outcomes, etc. I would much rather spend the time considering my own behaviors than pointing the finger at others and taking their inventory. J.
Back to say I like this question. We learn by asking and understanding, not by refusing to "take someone else's inventory." If I paid attention to nothing that did not pertain directly to me, not only would I be a narcissist, I would be an ignorant narcissist. Consider that.
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Ok, I have actually done alot of reading on this subject for the past few months. And this is what I have learned...
Most everyone has a healthy level of narcissistic tendencies. We all "love" ourselves. Babies love themselves and that helps them to survive. If we love and care about ourselves, we do what we need to to survive (eat, clothe ourselves, sleep, have shelter).
There is a personallity disorder termed Narcissistic Personality Disorder and people who have this are consumed with themselves. And it doesn't hae much to do with how they look. Sometimes they care about that, but vainity is different from NPD. NPD's believe that the world revolves around them. They truly have no thought or empathy or even sympathy for others. They see others as extentions of themselves not as seperate human beings. And they treat others as such. They use others to feed their "ego". Others mean nothing to a NPD unless they are giving something (time, money, themselves, their lives, social status, etc) to the NPD.
Many NPD's are charming and well liked and gain social staus in a community but behind closed doors they are very abusive and cruel. NPD's are 2 dimentional. They lack depth when you get to know them. They "warp" into whom ever they are attached to at the moment. And that is a major reason why they are liked. They "reflect back" what YOU actually are. If YOU are kind, they are kind, if YOU are an animal rights activist, THEY are an animal rights activist. They reflect. But they do not have a real sense of who they are.
I think (and this is my opinion) that because of this many NPD's self medicate. It is a sad state to live in.
There is also Malignant (sp?) Narcissistic Personality Disorder which is severe. That is like a Ted Bundy or another serial killer. They have a huge sense of entitlement. They believe they are too good for the laws of man. Which regular NPD's believe also but most do not act on their fantasies. They self medicate insted.
There is no cure for NPD but intensive therapy has shown to be effective over many years when the NPD is truly committted to recovering. Many get into therapy at the insistence of a loved one and fool the therapist. Most therapists are not equipted to handle a NPD and their bag of tricks. Many NPD's are skilled enough to take every thing they have done and twist it so that the people around them look like the ones with the disorder.
Where does it come from? Is it learned or inherited? Most believe it is a coping mechinism, a way to deal with a dysfunctional or verbally abusive upbringing. Even a way to deal with an Aism home. It is not thought to be a chemical imbalance like Bipolar Disorder.
Most NPD's become physically violent at some point with those they are involved with. They use people. They have been called "emotional vampires" because they drain their "victims".
Their "rein" of social acceptence and high standing never lasts forever (think Elliot Spitzer). Many NPD's have co-occuring addictions (sex is the highest co-occuring) and mental instabilities.
I can get more personal if you'd like but this is what I have learned so far in my months of researching this disorder.
If you want to know more PM me and I'll send you some good sites I have found.
Many people with substance abuse issues come in all sorts of flavors. I think personally the crisis stuff that A's have can be more cumulative. There is a whoel body of support out there and some interesting literature on it. There is also another form of codependency, narcissim codependence. I think its a common flavor really.
Labels can be helpful and they can be unhelpful. I am pretty good at labelling others but not so good at labellng myself. My elder sister certainly has a good indicator she is a narcissist. The issue is I don't have anything to do with her and don't plan to so there really isn't much point in going into all her charactor defects.
The only thing I would encourage you to do is to look at how that particular sub type affects you. I recently worked with somoene who had that issue and all I can say is boundary boundary and more boundary. I had to set tremendous limits as she had none and her expectations were immense. Even with limits I found her absolutely exhausting.
Some of my housemates might well qualify as narcissists, the issue for me is that I don't want/need much from them. I've given up wanting any emotional support, I know they don't approve and they feel the whole world revolves around them so that is the end of the story. I expect very little and am not disappointed. The issue for me with any narcissist or even an A is am I trying to change them? If i am I'm in deep trouble.
My sponsor once said, that all alcoholics are "narcissistic" because they are selfish, only think about themselves.
My A, however, had the personality disorder that Seren describes. Lots of websites about it, lots of books. Nothing you can do about it. People who live with a narcissist, suffer tremendously. From personal experience, counseling does not work. He's a charmer and a liar and somehow the focus always shifted to my depression.
Jean, I do not believe you can have the personality disorder! Because narcissists can NOT honestly look at themselves. If they could truly see themselves (reflection in the pool) there would be too much pain, so they don't go there.
Although I cannot find it, somewhere in the literature it says that because of an inability to be honest with themselves, some A's will never recover.
-- Edited by glad lee at 12:52, 2008-08-20
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The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
Wow, a funny & interesting thread. I do think there are some similarities, the A's appear as if they can do no wrong in their own eyes, at least in a full blown state.
For many years, I have thought of users & A's in general as emotional and psychic vampires that drain our energy. The tick is unplugging, learning to protect ourselves and consciously not be hosts anymore to these sad & needy people that often themselves don't realize they are doing this.
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
I laugh, because if you ask yourself if you are a narcissist you are probally neurotic, because narcissists never ask themselves anything self reflective.
As for the neediness of some people. Well within limits we all need other people. The problem with some troubled people is they go off the scale of normal behavior.
Anyhoo, the trouble with people who are very self absorbed is they have a personae or kind of an "act" and this can come across as charistmatic and in control.
For those of us not like this and somehow would like to be more like this are attacted to these people, also winning over someone unwinnable is a tease for someone like me.
Generally, lables are very hard but sometimes useful to identify someones character. My observation is that they often have good jobs or big personalities that kind of cover the lack of emotional availability.
Other personality disorders seem somewhat more disorganized so they are easier to see that something is wrong. With narcissists who hold jobs or appear charismatic its harder to see the problem, immediately.
From what i have read which is not much its about 5% of the adult population which is quite a few people when you think about it. And some people have other problems like mental illness, addicitons or antisocial behavior. But not necessarily, some narcissists are just plain narcissists.
but my point is that most narcissists do not ask themselves EVER if they are narcissists, that is more the ordinary garden neurotic.
Best Regards, Junehouse
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One must always do what one thinks can not be done.
-Eleanor Roosevelt-
